Derek Gaunt: Fight Less, Win More Through Tactical Empathy

Mick Unplugged

Mick Unplugged sits down with his coach Derek Gaunt to discuss how tactical empathy, listening, and pressure-tested communication can improve negotiations, leadership, and personal relationships. Drawing on

Key takeaways

• Derek Gaunt describes tactical empathy as recognizing another person's perspective without having to agree with it.
• Mick says Derek taught him that friction in a negotiation does not always mean anger; it can signal misunderstanding and an opportunity to see the situation from the other side's view.

Main topics

• Tactical empathy
• Negotiation strategy

Notable quotes

if you're explaining too early, you're losing.

Conclusion

The episode offers practical communication tactics for leaders, salespeople,

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) I start out in that asserter's voice. I give them both barrels as soon as they sit down. I want it in 60 seconds or she's going to die. They're told before they get into the hot seat, you cannot negotiate drugs or alcohol, weapons or ammunition, exchange of hostages or transportation. As soon as they sit down, the first thing I ask them for is a prohibited item. And I'm continually amazed at how many people will offer up a car. And the takeaway for the participants is under pressure, even if you're not a bad person, if you don't know how to say no, you're going to lie. Speaker 1 (0:42) Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged, and this one is personal. We talk about a guy who's changed my life, who's changed my business, and more importantly, has made me a better man than I ever thought was possible. He's a 29-year law enforcement veteran, spending some time as the commander of hostage negotiation teams in the Metro DC area. He is a guy that is going to teach us how to fight less and win more. My coach. Mr. Derek Glantz. Derek, how you doing today, brother? Doing well, man. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you for being here. So much that I owe you, and we're going to talk a lot about that, man. But, you know, the first time I met you, I felt connected because I felt like you were that best friend that's going to coach you hard, but love you harder. Right? Like, I felt that with your personality. Like, you genuinely care. But you're always going to tell the truth. And I felt that connection. And I just want to thank you for that because you don't realize the books that you've written. Speaker 1 (1:50) Again, getting to be coached by you, just how special that is to me. So I owe you thanks and gratitude. I Speaker 2 (1:55) appreciate that. That's very kind of you to say. Yes, sir. It's fun. To your point, I get a charge out of it because I can see the impact that it's having on people, not so much their professional life, although we just were talking about professionally, but their personal life. Speaker 1 (2:15) I Speaker 2 (2:15) get more gratitude out of it. Hearing feedback from people saying, yeah, I'm making more money. Speaker 2 (2:22) But I also just repaired a rift in my family that's been existing for the last 15 years. And that's, for me, that's gold. Speaker 1 (2:33) You talk about it, man. I mean, I remember we were in Dallas in March, and you and Chris were on stage challenging people. If you've had deals that have stalled, hey, send a text message. Have you given up on blah, blah, blah? And that day I converted like $300,000 in like investment deals. And then you've helped me close a million dollar deal. And it's not about the money. It's about the confidence. Like what you've instilled in me is confidence that in front of my team, if I'm at a negotiation sales deal, even in the household, you've just given me confidence that, hey, I understand the rules of engagement. know the words that you're going to say, and most importantly, pay attention. Yep. Pay attention. So thank you, Speaker 2 (3:23) brother. Yeah, man. If we can get more people to close their mouths and just listen to what the other side is saying. And when I'm talking about listening, and I know for your sake I'm preaching to the choir, but for your viewers and your listeners, I'm talking about being able to... To really understand the human nature response which dictates that negative emotions and negative dynamic dynamics drive decision-making and drive behavior And so you get your head around that that's where the confidence comes from because you now put yourself at a distinct advantage over the majority of the population because they will not take the time to really Surface those negative emotions and dynamics. They'll just let them lie dormant and hope That they don't rear their ugly head. And that's going to happen eventually. Speaker 1 (4:12) Yeah. So I've always wanted to ask you this question, but I was like, I'm going to wait for the podcast so that I can hear it directly. You know, I always start my show with asking my guests, what's their because? That thing that's deeper than your why. Simon Sinek, good friend of mine, taught us to start with why. But I think we're fueled by our because, that passion, that ongoing thing. You've accomplished so much in life. Speaker 1 (4:37) at any time you could stop being Derek, right? You can stop coaching. You could stop. I don't mean it physically. Don't leave me. But you don't have to do the things that you do. What's your because? Why do you continue to do the thing? Speaker 2 (4:52) It's almost like an obligatory give back because I have benefited from a lot of good fortune, blessings, however you want to couch it over the course of my life. And a lot of it was based on my ability to communicate one person to another. I decided to pay it back because there... Speaker 2 (5:18) Not to be hyperbolic, but the black swan methodology, if it was adopted by everybody globally, we wouldn't be in half the mess that we're in right now. And it boils down to this. One side refusing to. Speaker 2 (5:37) articulate their recognition of another side's perspective. And that's why we're blowing boats up in the Straits of Hormuz. That's why we are, there's conflicts, micro-conflicts all over the globe because one side is not, will not, refuses to acknowledge the perspective. Not agree with it, just acknowledge the perspective. Speaker 1 (6:01) And Speaker 2 (6:01) so I think, Learning that over the course of my lifetime was a gift. Speaker 2 (6:09) Why not share it? Speaker 1 (6:10) I love it. So speaking of that, talk about your journey into law enforcement. Right. You know, for me growing up, my grandfather was law enforcement. He was the first black police officer in our hometown. So we always grew up with this innate respect for law enforcement, like my entire family. But I know for a lot of people, especially people of color, right, like. There's I want to say a fear but there's a lack of trust. Yeah Speaker 2 (6:40) What Speaker 1 (6:41) was your journey like being on the other side? Speaker 2 (6:45) It was hard man. I'm the it and and it's it's gotten increasingly difficult for men and women of color in in law enforcement, but my journey You know, it's Speaker 2 (7:01) It's difficult looking like other members of the community, but enforcing rules. And those rules have not always been enforced with equity. Speaker 2 (7:16) And so I've, as a black man, have to deal with that and the negative emotions and dynamics that are associated with that. You know, and I've been called every disparaging name that you can think of when I was wearing the badge. I think, to your point, one of the most unheralded stories in American history is the story of the black cop. Speaker 2 (7:46) because we spend most of our lives stuck between a rock and a hard place. And we've got to appease two different groups that are expecting two different things. And it's taxing. It wears on you. But I came up in a time, I started in a time when... Speaker 2 (8:09) crack cocaine was in its heyday and those of us who are over a certain age remember how almost every black or brown community in this country was being just obliterated because of the influx of this drug of these drugs and so when I came on it was high speed low drag adrenaline dumps every single night and and and the enforcement was different back then you could not enforce the law now the way we did back then right Because you'll be wearing an orange jumpsuit. You know what I'm saying? And so it was always a struggle, especially when I started doing narcotics. That's when it got really difficult because I was in the same pockets around the city all of the time. And I was seeing just how bad human beings treated themselves and treated each other. Interestingly enough, it wasn't until I slowed down, I got transferred to the criminal investigation section, I started working major crimes, that I started to see things more holistically and see things from the perspective of... Speaker 1 (9:31) the bad guy, Speaker 2 (9:32) for example. He sits down across from me and is adamant. He doesn't know what I'm talking about. He ain't telling me nothing. Blah, blah, blah. Speaker 1 (9:42) And Speaker 2 (9:42) the skills that we talk about in Fight Less, Win More and Never Split the Difference are the same skills that I used during those interviews in order to get him to provide the information that I needed, whether it was information on other people or for him to criminally implicate himself in the case that I was working. And so, That forced me into tactical empathy. That forced me to see what this guy was seeing. What does the lay of the land look like from his perspective? Because as soon as I can demonstrate that I understand this is how he views it, that's when he stops looking at me as a threat. And that's when he starts to reciprocate. That's probably one of the most powerful. Speaker 2 (10:27) aspects of tactical empathy is reciprocation. People feel obligated to return the favor to you. And in his case, it's given me the information I need to move the case forward. And so you're talking about an evolution in my thinking, my mindset, my maturity level, and it kept getting... the maturity level kept growing when I got promoted to Sergeant, then I got promoted to Lieutenant, and then I took over the hostage negotiations team. And so my journey was... Speaker 2 (11:01) replete with challenges because of the color of my skin but the flip side of that coin is that I got into some very cool stuff and I figured out very early that I could say specific things in a specific manner to elicit specific information and that nobody else could get and I could use that information to influence that person to doing what I needed them to do and I you know once I realized there was a methodology and a process I was hooked I was hooked because I could I could move the needle without being offensive. I could establish trust-based influence without manipulating the other side. And so when you can do that, when you've mastered that, the world's your oyster. Speaker 1 (11:45) I get chills all the time, man, because... And I'm going to look at the camera directly and say this. If you've never read Never Split the Difference, if you haven't picked up Fight Less, Win More, if you haven't looked at the Black Swan group, you totally need to because I'm going to call it the stuff, but the lessons work. You have to be willing to let go of ego. You have to be willing to let go of the way you think things should go. But if you embrace it. Dude, it works. And I'm living proof of that. Like my whole life changed because I got to understand more. Like I would say and I'm going to move to what I call the unplugged truth. So I'm going to give you an unplugged truth right here. The biggest thing that you've ever taught me was Mick. When you're at a negotiation table. And then there becomes friction and friction all the time for you. This watching or listening doesn't mean anger. It just means, hey, they don't understand something. That's friction. And you asked me, what would I do? And I said, oh, well, I'm going to meet them in the middle. And you said, what does that solve? Speaker 2 (12:58) And Speaker 1 (12:59) I was like, I don't know. And you said, well, how about going to stand beside them and look at you from their view? Look at the situation from their view so that you understood so that you understand it. And it totally changed my life, man, because what you were saying was you can't have empathy, tactical, empathetic leadership, any of that without seeing the viewpoint. Whether you agree with it or not, you've got to see it. And it changed my perspective. I'd love for you to go into that a little bit. Speaker 2 (13:28) Yeah, so it's a matter of. Speaker 2 (13:32) Putting your goal and objective in abeyance when you sit down with that other person. You know where you want to end up. Right. But you know that your decision to end up there is based on incomplete information. Because the person with whom you're engaging. Speaker 2 (13:50) is not telling you the whole story. And so you have to go into these conversations assuming that you have something to learn. So I never encouraged leading with your goal and objective because your goal and objective may change based on what you learn within that conversation. Speaker 2 (14:08) This idea that we can convince anyone if we can just talk to them long enough is a fallacy. You're wasting your time with a bunch of explanation and exposition about where you want to end up. We see we all go into these conversations with our goal and objective and we throw it on the table and we say to the other person, here's all my data and information. Here's where I want to end up. Here's why I want to end up there. It's all in there. You should make this decision. And they go, nope. Speaker 2 (14:38) Because why? Because you haven't taken the time to show them that you understand what their worldview is.