All About That Treble

Mess World

In this episode of Mess World, hosts Jessica DeFino and Emily Kirkpatrick dive into a chaotic mix of fashion, beauty, and pop culture contro

Key takeaways

• Anna Wintour's controversial choice to feature John Galliano at the Met Gala may be a calculated use of 'rage bait' to generate media attention despite his past hate speech convictions.
• The fashion industry's rehabilitation narrative around Galliano highlights ongoing tensions between artistic legacy and accountability, especially concerning antisemitic remarks.

Main topics

• John Galliano's Met Gala controversy and past antisemitic remarks
• The ethics of cosmetic advertising in medical settings

Notable quotes

"It's not you. People are mostly mad at me." – Emily Kirkpatrick, on podcast cross-talk

"I'm just so sick of it. I'm so sick of it. And yeah, consider this my apology for being pretty like combative and loopy today." – Jessica DeFino, discussing medical advertising

Conclusion

The episode closes with a mix of humor, personal vulnerability, and sharp cultural critique—highlighting how

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:01) Hot, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot. Speaker 1 (0:14) Hello and welcome to Mess World, a podcast dedicated to discussing the highs and lows of pop culture every month. I'm Jessica DeFino and I write the newsletter Flesh World. And I'm Emily Kirkpatrick Speaker 2 (0:25) and I write I Heart Mess. What's up? It's Speaker 1 (0:28) fall. Not much. It's fall. It's September 1st when we're recording. Wow. Speaker 2 (0:32) Wow. Day Speaker 1 (0:33) after Fran's birthday for Speaker 2 (0:35) all those who celebrate. Speaker 1 (0:36) Happy Speaker 2 (0:36) birthday, Fran. She turned four. Yep. She turned four yesterday. Speaker 1 (0:40) Oh my goodness. Speaker 1 (0:43) So cute. Speaker 2 (0:44) She's cute. Speaker 1 (0:45) The big event this past month for me was that I very bravely read our reviews on Apple for this podcast. Speaker 2 (0:56) So strong, so powerful. Speaker 1 (0:58) And, you know, people like the podcast, but everyone is mad that we talk over each other. And I just, you know what? Sorry for being enthusiastic. I'm really going to try to not talk over Emily from now on. Speaker 2 (1:12) Sorry, but it's really, it's not you. People are mostly mad at me. And yeah, I'm sorry, I'm enthusiastic. I'm sorry that Jess inspires me and that I want to chime in with thoughts of my own. I simply can't be helped. Also, I think it's important just to note, like, we do record this remotely. Speaker 1 (1:28) So Speaker 2 (1:28) that is also part of the crosstalk problem people are so angry about is there's literally a slight lag, like there's a slight delay in our recording. So like, we do think the other one has stopped talking. Speaker 1 (1:41) Yes. And sometimes like our screens will freeze a little bit. So I'm like, I can't, I can't get the visual cues that you're, you're still going. Speaker 2 (1:48) Yeah. So if there's a lot of stilted silences and awkward pauses today, that is us trying to be respectful of your audio needs and not interrupt one another. Speaker 1 (1:59) I know. I'm scared it's going to kill the vibe. See, I just did it. I just talked over you. I'm trying so hard. God damn it. Speaker 2 (2:06) It's so Speaker 1 (2:07) important. I think I'm going to make up for, you know, whatever piece we can give listeners by not cross-talking. I'm going to quickly eliminate that with my parents' dogs. I'm recording from my parents' house right now. And actually, the cops just knocked on the door and they're like, we're getting complaints about the dogs. They got to stop barking. And they're really bad dogs. They won't stop. So you'll probably hear them. Period. It was scary. It was like a cop with a gun in a bulletproof vest knocking on the door and being like, what's going on with the dogs? And I was Speaker 2 (2:40) scared. That's a lot of response for some dogs barking. I can hear them. I Speaker 1 (2:45) know. I know. They're so bad. I Speaker 2 (2:47) like Speaker 1 (2:47) it. Speaker 2 (2:47) It's ambience. Speaker 1 (2:49) Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (2:50) Ambient background music. Slice of life stuff, you know? Slice of life. We're putting you in our environment. Speaker 1 (2:57) Okay, should we get to it? Speaker 2 (3:00) Let's begin. I am going to begin. Honestly, I put this story in our doc at the beginning of the month just because it was something I was thinking about and I didn't expect such a timely news update to come in just this week. I'm, of course, talking about John Galliano being the theme and now not the theme of the Met Gala. Yeah, as of yesterday, he pulled out, which is... The plot thickens of this. Everyone's mad. I was shocked. Speaker 1 (3:30) I did not expect that at all. Speaker 2 (3:32) Yeah, I'm shocked for kind of like multiple reasons. I guess we can get into it. I mean, like on the ground floor, I'm shocked because honestly, when this was announced, I kind of had this like. galaxy what i felt was a galaxy brain take at the time where i'm like oh like anna wintour is intentionally rage baiting us like this is anna like harnessing the power of rage bait in a way that she's never rage baited us before and i felt like it made so much sense because we're coming off the heels of like both the carl lagerfeld met gala of course which people were not happy about for very similar reasons to john galliano and also we're coming off the back of the jeff bezos like sponsoring the Met Gala and the crazy protest and backlash to that, which she did not seem to like care about or moderate or change anything about. Speaker 1 (4:20) And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this, this past Met Gala, the Bezos Met Gala bring in like the most amount of money the Met Gala has ever brought in. Speaker 2 (4:27) So it makes Speaker 1 (4:28) sense. It's like, if you're going to top the press and the controversy, how do you top Bezos? Oh, Galeano. Well, Speaker 2 (4:34) exactly. And that was my thinking is because I was like, oh, I bet that like on the, on the back end of those two Met Galas, I. to my brain, I was like, oh, she's realized that like controversy is still coverage. Like it's still people talking about, and the Met Gala is such like an enormous cultural event. Like it will be covered regardless. Like every media outlet in the world has to cover this because this is like a psycho traffic day for everyone who runs a website. So it's like, it will be covered. And just making people hate it just doubles or quadruples your coverage of an event that would otherwise be. totally papered so to me it made a lot of sense um even if cynically but i feel like that's kind of the era we're in anyway for for events like this and so i was a little surprised plus i feel like people keep bringing up also i guess it's the 10-year or maybe we just passed the 10-year anniversary of the kimye vogue cover has Speaker 1 (5:26) it been that long oh my god it's Speaker 2 (5:28) gotta be it's gotta be because it's gotta be 2014 to 2016 i'm thinking it's gonna be earlier it's gonna be like 2014 Speaker 1 (5:34) So I Speaker 2 (5:35) don't know, but I've seen people bringing it up a lot again recently. I don't know why, but I was thinking, right, what a successful piece of rage bait that was. Maybe the most successful piece of rage bait in Vogue history, you know? And she turned out to be right about that. Like she put them on the cover at a time where everyone was like, they're trash, they're nothing. It's like, look at the figures they become. You can debate whether or not that's appropriate for Vogue, but I think it's undeniable that it was the right call in terms of celebrity. And so to my mind, I was like, It just makes a lot of sense. Of course, I don't know. My initial response also was like, there is kind of one grave miscalculation. I mean, I suppose for those who don't know, also Anna Wintour's best friend is John Galliano. So that is why he has continued to have the career he's had, continued to be like pressed forward as like an all-time great who deserves honors like this is because she is behind him. Speaker 1 (6:25) Should we give a little refresher for the folks at home who maybe don't know why there is controversy around Galliano? Speaker 2 (6:31) Totally. And yes. So basically in 2011, Galeano was found guilty by a French court, actually, of making bigoted and hateful comments about Jews and Asians. It was recorded. It was like a drunken rant outside of a cafe in Paris that was recorded on camera and spread around. In the wake of that, I mean, the comments were very disgusting. Again, they're very Kanye-esque. Also, a lot of pro-Hitler business. And in the wake of that, he was appropriately, I think, fired from Dior, where he was the creative director. He was also replaced at his eponymous brand at John Galliano by his assistant. He then attended a rehab in Arizona for substance abuse issues. And he kind of was put through this rigorous... rehabilitation course. I'm not really sure like who put that together, but he went into like studying the history of Judaism and the Holocaust. And he met with all these rabbis and like Jewish community leaders as like a form of contrition for what he had done and kind of like learning the severity of the statements that he made and what he was talking about. And that's also why ahead of this, the announcement of this Met Gala, the Met actually sought the approval of various Jewish community leaders. in even putting the exhibition on is because they kind of wanted to make sure, I think, that that base was, like, quote-unquote, covered. You know, by being like, see, like, they're fine with it, so, like, you should be fine with it as well. But I would also just like to point out, like, that controversy happens, and as, like, that's 2011, and by 2014, Anna has gotten Galliano appointed at Margiela. So, it's a pretty quick turnaround from... from infamy to rehabilitation there in my opinion especially i'm not sure if people outside the industry really understand what being appointed at the head of margiela means um within fashion like that is kind of one of the most not only one of the most prestigious roles that you could take on like honestly obviously like chanel chanel is the holy grail right like when carl died everyone was fighting to be the next creative director of chanel but margiela i would say is just as coveted but it's also like reserved for like a more of a creative genius like artistic type like you have to be pretty artsy fartsy you have to be pretty experimental and out there to work at a house like margella so it's like a an additional honor on top of it being like a massive luxury brand to help yeah so Speaker 1 (9:08) him being a Speaker 2 (9:09) point a kanye fave and often something that kanye is heavily heavily stealing from um yeah martin margella is very much kanye's blueprint But yeah, so just interesting. I also think in terms of this conversation of being canceled and what cancellation means and all that, which I do think is an interesting question that's coming up again around this Mech-ala. But I don't know. I just want to point out when people say that, oh, he's been canceled and he's been through the ringer and stuff, it's like, yeah, for, you know, two, three years. You know, and maybe that's enough. You know, who am I to say maybe that's enough? I just want to make it clear that his career has fully bounced back in a very serious way. And of course, if you're tapped into the Galliano world, he does have a collection with Zara coming out this month. So I think he's okay. Speaker 1 (9:59) Oh, yes. I forgot about that. Speaker 2 (10:02) Yeah. The one that he debuted on Stevie Nicks at the Met Gala. Speaker 1 (10:05) How could you forget? Speaker 2 (10:06) Oh my gosh. One of my initial thoughts about this too is this feeling that, well, I'm curious what Anna's thought was and the Met Gala and Andrew Bolton who runs the Costume Institute. I was just very curious about how they thought that this exhibit was going to be received. Because I think any normal person could have told them that this exact thing would obviously happen and not be, yeah, well received by the public who has not forgotten. about Galliano's statements and clearly has not forgiven him. And I was wondering if like the Karl Lagerfeld kind of, I wonder if that Met Gala kind of like skewed how they thought it would be received. Because I think they've made like a fundamental mistake, which is like Karl Lagerfeld, no one was happy about that Met Gala, but like they kind of got away with it because he's dead. Speaker 1 (10:52) Yeah. I think. Which is just a very different thing. I think like if Galeano was dead right now, I think there would be a way that this Met Gala could proceed and examine his career and his impact and his highs and his very, very low, low lows. Speaker 2 (11:09) Totally. And I think people are also much more forgiving about doing kind of a hagiography of a fashion designer when they. their past and we can reflect on their work as like oh isn't it historically important versus like hey the actual guy was like kind of screwed up and said a lot of really sick things about a lot of people because i would argue that way carl while carl was much more careful about what he said publicly like it i he was pretty much just as bad as galliano i mean i guess he never said anything Speaker 1 (11:40) no, he said racist things. I was Speaker 2 (11:42) trying to say like, oh, maybe it wasn't as bigoted, but no, he also said some bigoted things. Maybe not on camera. Maybe that's the difference. I don't know. I mean, you're walking this really crazy tightrope to try and like differentiate between the two of them and like the problematic people that they were and are. But I don't know. I just thought, I thought maybe that screwed things up in their mind about like how we would perceive it. Speaker 1 (12:05) Yeah. It's also kind of an odd time to like be saying like, Forgiveness. We're going to replatform this person with the particular literal crime that he committed. Yes. This anti-Semitic outburst. It's kind of it. I don't know. I haven't been able to square it in my head, but I feel like the elite milieu who's at. the top of like the Met Gala, like that sort of crowd has been leaning into like accusations of people being anti-Semitic when they're actually like supporting Palestine. Like the accusation of being anti-Semitic if you oppose the genocide in Gaza has been thrown out by this sort of caliber of person, if not Anna Wintour herself or people. themselves so it's kind of interesting to see that being used as like an insult to get pro-palestine people um sort of out of the way and then welcoming in this sort of um historic anti-semite to be like we forgive you now you've done enough rehabilitation like you're fine it just feels like odd timing yeah Speaker 2 (13:16) that's a great point it is totally odd timing and yeah given everything we were seeing in Gaza. An extra crazy time to try and rehabilitate his reputation publicly in this way. It seems poor timing. So yeah, again, after kind of, you know... A lot of backlash from the public, a lot of think pieces. On Monday, Galeano released a statement and he said, I understand that meaningful atonement is not achieved through an exhibition, institutional recognition, or a single public gesture. It is a continuing responsibility demonstrated through listening, learning, and one's conduct over time. Which, yeah, that's true, and yet... you were gonna have an exhibition anyway an institutional recognition despite you know doing kind of a single public gesture well okay great great apology and then it also gave um anna went or an opportunity to release her own statement about john galliano uh pulling out and saying that the decision was very courageous and a measure of the man that he is Speaker 1 (14:19) oh my goodness Speaker 2 (14:21) gotta Speaker 1 (14:22) take every opportunity we can do more This is probably going to do more to rehab his image than like actually being honored at the Met Gala would, to be honest. Speaker 2 (14:32) So actually, that is my former mutual. And I only say former because I am no longer on Twitter. But my former Twitter mutual, Chloe Kennedy, who is great. You should follow her if you don't. Great for fashion. She had another galaxy brain conspiracy theory take, which is she was saying that all of this was part of the plan from the beginning to rehabilitate his image thoroughly. Speaker 1 (14:53) Because he gets to look really Speaker 2 (14:54) great by like backing out and looking very graceful and humble and like contrite and like he really is doing the work in a very public way. And again, at a time when his collection for Zara is launching imminently. So like never a better time to look contrite than right now, I guess. Speaker 2 (15:15) Yeah, very curious. But honestly, my favorite take to come out of all of this is, of course, from my queen, Robin Givhan. She wrote an op-ed for the New York Times today called Cancel the Met Gala Instead. Hell fucking yeah. Hell yeah. Speaker 1 (15:32) Punk rock. Speaker 2 (15:33) So she suggested that what they should have done is keep the exhibit and ditch the gala. Because her argument is that an exhibit, you can hold Galliano to task and show his work in a way where it's in context and it isn't inherently celebratory. You can put his wrongs right next to his archival rights, you know, and you can have them in conversation like that in a way that you simply cannot on a red carpet. Like there's nothing, the glamour and the fanfare and the celebrity involved in the gala will always overshadow the exhibit. if not annihilate the exhibit entirely. And so like, there is no way, there's no way to look at Galliano's work through historical, like it's, it's important contribution to the world of fashion historically without kind of glamorizing him and making him seem, you know, like a good guy we should be honoring. And I thought that was a great point. Speaker 1 (16:26) Yeah. I think that's obviously one that no Speaker 2 (16:28) one's going to take. Speaker 1 (16:30) No. I know. But Speaker 2 (16:32) I do think, I mean, I think the whole conversation, it raises, especially for our industry, which has so many people who truly should be so Speaker 1 (16:40) fucking Speaker 2 (16:41) canceled and are not and continue to work like very successfully and unproblematically. I do think this whole conversation, it does raise a really interesting point about cancel culture and like. like, can you come back from being canceled? Like, what does contrition look like? Like, what, Speaker 1 (16:58) you Speaker 2 (16:59) know, is paying your dues? And how do we know when they're paid? I guess, you know, and meanwhile, it's like, why can't we, why can't we find a way to somehow honor the work that Galliano has done? When we have people like Alexander Wang and Dolce & Gabbana like actively making successful livings in our industry and being worn by celebrities all the fucking time. Speaker 1 (17:25) So true. I Speaker 2 (17:26) mean, Speaker 1 (17:27) there is also a difference between being uncanceled enough to remain a working designer and being one of like three living fashion designers in the history of the Met Gala to have. an overview of their work celebrated at this like once a year event too so it's like yeah Speaker 2 (17:48) yeah he's working i agree that's true totally but also it's like well I don't know. It's like, if I have to choose, I would also like rather save this energy for someone like Wang who has like credible allegations of being a sexual predator than for someone like Galeano who at the very least is attempting to do the work, whatever you think of that work or however true you think that work is. Like he, I don't know. It's very complicated. I really don't know how I feel about it because it just feels to me it's like. we're letting the people who are very Trumpian in their approach kind of win at the end of the day. Because like if you just are never apologetic for it, if you never admit it, if you never like, I don't know, if you never feel apologetic, you Speaker 1 (18:38) never Speaker 2 (18:38) have to apologize. And meanwhile, those who do feel apologetic and who do apologize, it's like it's never enough. And then like, I don't know, at what point are we getting into like weird thought police territory where we're like, well, he doesn't mean it. It's like, okay, well, how will we ever know? I don't know. Speaker 1 (18:54) Yeah. I don't know. There is like, there is also a difference between the fact that Galeano's crimes were like caught on camera and tried in a court and he has a conviction against him and like can't hide from it that way versus a situation like Alexander Wang, where a lot of it is just. Speaker 1 (19:12) words at this point um you know credible believable words Speaker 2 (19:18) yes Speaker 1 (19:19) but what about dolce and gabbana who i have oh yeah yeah who have Speaker 2 (19:23) screenshots of them saying horrifically racist and bigoted things completely Speaker 1 (19:28) where do they fall Speaker 2 (19:29) i Speaker 1 (19:31) don't know i don't know it's a complicated topic have you read monsters Speaker 1 (19:38) Monsters by Claire. I don't think so. What's her last name? I feel bad that I'm blanking on her name, but it is sort of, it's this book. It came out a couple of years ago that sort of asks like, can we, should we separate art from the artist? And it goes through, you know, Roman Polanski to Sylvia Plath to Michael Jackson. And, and it was a really, I think for anyone interested in this topic. Speaker 1 (20:03) It's not fun. It's an interesting, thought-provoking read that I don't know if I 100 % agreed with it at all times, but I liked the directions it took my mind. So I would recommend. Speaker 2 (20:15) Cool. Yeah, I would like to read that. That sounds interesting. Speaker 1 (20:18) I really want to talk about a new perfume, a new perfume that's out in the world that's called White Blood. I got this PR email the other day. The subject line was fragrances you need to know about. And the first fragrance listed was from a brand called L'Entropiste. And the name of the perfume is White Blood. And I feel like I'm going crazy because I haven't seen anyone be like, this is kind of a weird name. But it's just, it's kind of a weird name. Like, why? In the year 2026, in this time of like rising fascism and white supremacy and eugenics, would you release a perfume named White Blood? Like, are you looking for the American