Three Rules For Life & The Worst Person In A Conversation

Mamamia Out Loud

The hosts debate the professionalism of bringing iced coffee to job interviews following a viral recruiter's warning. They also explore perf

Key takeaways

• Recruiter Caitlin Wynanian suggests iced coffee in interviews signals a lack of focus and professionalism.
• Laurie Anderson's rules for life include being unafraid, using a bullshit detector, and being tender.

Main topics

• Job interview etiquette
• Laurie Anderson's life rules

Notable quotes

Don't be afraid of anybody.

Conclusion

The episode offers a blend of cultural critique and lifestyle advice,

Transcript preview

Speaker 5 (0:03) and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, the 2nd of October. I'm Holly Wainwright. I'm Jessie Stephens. And I'm Em Burnham. And here's what's made our agenda for today. Three rules for life that I find inspiring and our Em finds Speaker 4 (0:20) embarrassing. Plus, there are five types of conversation hoggers and we need to fight them. And our recommendations, including the movie that you, Em, say could even be better than the Odyssey and I Speaker 3 (0:33) am Speaker 4 (0:33) listening. Hard opinions in this Speaker 3 (0:34) one. But first, Jessie Stephens. In case you missed it, a TikTok video about job interviews and iced coffee has gone viral and I simply cannot wait to hear both your opinions, right? So Caitlin Wynanian is a US-based recruiter and here's what she said. Speaker 1 (0:51) My Gen Z candidates are showing up to their interviews with iced coffee, iced latte in hand. And here's how I perceive that as a recruiter with 16 years of experience that deals with mostly Fortune 500, super buttoned up corporations. It is perceived from my opinion, my hiring standpoint, that when you show up with an iced coffee or an iced latte, that this... interview is just like a stop on your list of errands for the day. It looks like you went to Target, then you went to Starbucks. Now you're stopping by your interview. Then you're on to the next thing. It looks a little too casual to me. And again, this is like your perception of how you're perceived in this 30 to 45 minutes that you have to interview. This is important. Don't show up with iced coffee or the iced latte. Save that for well before the interview or after the interview. Go and get one. But don't like waltz into your interview all casual with an iced coffee. It just looks like you didn't have time to finish your coffee beforehand. Speaker 3 (1:52) Okay, so that was her opinion. Are people really doing that? Speaker 5 (1:57) Yes, Speaker 3 (1:58) they are. What do you mean? And Holly, when you see the comments, so the top comments, but an interview is just a stop in my day. It's not my whole day. Another comment, do you guys need employees or not? And the third one, why do we have to pretend we aren't human? Wow. Speaker 5 (2:15) Em, Speaker 3 (2:15) is an iced coffee in a job Speaker 4 (2:17) interview play on? I want to kind of dissect her for a little bit, Caitlin, our good friend, because when I heard her talk, it reminded me about this. moment where my mum ate a breakfast roll and the egg yolk in the breakfast roll squirted into her hair. And then we were doing a long road trip and she had this egg smell in her hair and now she's never been able to eat eggs again. I think Caitlin interviewed someone. They spilled coffee all over her desk, all over her. She was sitting in that coffee smell the whole day. And now this is her way of saying, please. So you think she's triggered? She's had a traumatic? event Speaker 3 (2:57) happen around an iced coffee and now she's projecting onto everyone who walks around with an iced coffee. You're making Speaker 5 (3:01) this her problem. It's not her problem. It's the Speaker 4 (3:04) problem of the people walking into her office with iced coffees. That's wild. I do have to say, if you're bringing, firstly, if you're drinking iced coffee, grow up. Speaker 5 (3:13) Agreed. Hard agreed. We Speaker 4 (3:14) don't do that anymore. My teenager only Speaker 5 (3:16) drinks iced coffee. I took her into a coffee shop the other day and the woman behind the counter just looked at her and said, I assume it's an iced coffee. It's a Speaker 4 (3:23) child's drink. I think if you're bringing in an iced coffee in an interview, Speaker 5 (3:27) you Speaker 4 (3:28) are very confident. If I Speaker 5 (3:29) was Speaker 4 (3:29) interviewing someone who brought in an iced coffee, I'd be intimidated. A power play, you think? A power play. Because, okay, think about it. You're holding your iced coffee. If you're nervous for an interview, that would be shaking, making a loud noise. Okay, Speaker 3 (3:41) it's loud regardless. The thing about any other hot drink is that it's a silent hot drink. There's something so especially leisurely about an iced coffee. It is such a weekend. drink, I think. The other thing is... You're Speaker 5 (3:53) all on drugs. It's about the coffee. It's about taking... Wait, Speaker 3 (3:56) so Speaker 5 (3:56) you're saying a hot coffee would be the same? Like, you go to a job interview, you're not walking in there with, like, your sandwich and your coffee. You're just not, like... And Speaker 3 (4:05) your Speaker 5 (4:05) shopping bag. If you want a coffee, which, believe me, I always want a coffee, you have it before you go in. You wouldn't... How... could you be taking a takeaway drink into a job interview like that blows my tiny mind because you're thirsty yeah This is not a drinking, unless they've invited you for a coffee, different, right? And you know how often job interviews are framed like that. They're like, let's have a coffee. But I think that's weirder Speaker 4 (4:32) because if I'm going to a coffee meeting, I shouldn't be bringing my own coffee. Speaker 5 (4:36) You're providing. If they say to you, come in for a coffee, then you're not paying for the coffee. That sets off the... But you can't take a takeaway drink into a job interview. My Speaker 3 (4:45) issue is the Speaker 5 (4:45) iced. Speaker 3 (4:46) Right, she was with the iced. Yes, yes. Because I think, so there's this like psychological principle, right, that they did this experiment where we're in the lift, Holly, let's say like we're doing an interview and we actually get in the lift together. And I say to you, hey, could you hold this hot drink for a second? And I go and do something. Apparently you will perceive our interaction as warmer and better because of like something about the warm drink. So even like it's Speaker 5 (5:11) a Speaker 3 (5:11) trick where you might see a psychologist, you might go in for an interview, you might have something. the other person will be holding something. There might not be anything in there. But the like implicit nature of a warm drink endears you to people. It's like a whole hack thing. A cold drink has the opposite. Speaker 5 (5:27) Anyone asking me to hold their drink so they go and do Speaker 3 (5:30) something is not getting the job. Speaker 5 (5:31) That is absolutely A1, top of the list right there. I also Speaker 3 (5:35) think that not only is it... like loud. The condensation is like a bit yuck for an interview. Like the condensation is just very wet. And then I shake your hand and I've got a wet, cold hand, which is yuck. And the condensation is on your desk. Yes, it's a straw against the ice. It is so loud I cannot even hear your answers. How Speaker 5 (5:53) big is precise coffee in your head? It's become a jumbo. It's enormous. Because I know there's no rage bait like. oh my god gen z like there's no from there's yeah there's no better rage button that don't know how to behave in a job interview so i know it's a bit tired but there is definitely a different expectation like as i say i would be if anyone brought a coffee or a hot or anything takeaway food into a job interview i would not be impressed just because i would be thinking You do all that first. When you walk in here, you are focused. We are doing this. I'll offer you a coffee if I want you to have a coffee. This is the thing that's really interesting in this, in the comment section there, is an implicit power flip, which is interesting, which is when they say, do you want employees or not? If you're a manager, you're like, do you want a job or not, right? So it's interesting that to me, thinking as someone who's hired people and done a lot of job interviews, I'm thinking you're here to impress me. to be honest. Whereas they're walking in with their coffee going, you're here to impress me Speaker 3 (6:56) and I've got my coffee. Oh, watch. I'm just going to vibe whether you're it for me or not because this is my day off. And I came here for my day off to meet you. Which is really interesting Speaker 5 (7:04) when you think about it like that. And obviously I'm not saying that it's good that I sit there thinking impress me, but I'm like, if you want this job and you've applied for it and you couldn't organise your day well enough to have had your coffee before you walked in here, I'm like. Speaker 4 (7:19) On Mamma Mia's work and career podcast Biz, we talked to interview experts and they said that if you go to an interview and they offer you a glass of water, always say yes because it makes you more likable because they feel like they're doing something for you and helping you. And also just saying yes. And just saying yes. And so I wonder if like... bringing in your own like coffee does the opposite whether like you did that for yourself you know what it signals that you're not a team player you've Speaker 3 (7:50) come in you've thought about yourself and your own desires you've not offered anyone else you didn't bring me a coffee yeah yeah exactly and that makes you unlikable out loud as we need to know we need to know Speaker 5 (8:00) your thoughts who's right Clearly it's me. We all love some rules for life, right? We love it. That Jordan Peterson guy that you used to be so keen on. He's Speaker 3 (8:11) got Speaker 5 (8:11) like Speaker 3 (8:11) 12. Speaker 5 (8:11) He went quiet. Massive selling book with his 12 rules for life or whatever it was. But whose rules do you want, right? In my algorithm, I have seen. one woman's rules for life over and over again this week. And that is 79-year-old performance artist Laurie Anderson. Now, no one's in trouble for not knowing who she is. She is a very, like, kind of obscure but influential musician, filmmaker, writer. But she was married to Lou Reed, so, like, very cool New York vibes, right? If I was explaining, she's like an icon, but almost like a boomer icon, you know. Anyway, she's still very cool and she still makes performance art. And the clip that's gone viral for her is she's standing up in Brooklyn. Where else? Where else would she be? It's Speaker 3 (9:03) the Speaker 5 (9:03) most Brooklyn thing I've ever seen. The most Brooklyn thing you've ever seen. Playing electronic, because she was also a bit of a tech innovator. She was making electronic music way before it was a thing that most people did. Playing her body as a kind of instrument. This is where Em begins to lose it. I'm going to hold your hand. I don't Speaker 4 (9:21) like your definition of cool because sometimes you call me cool and now I'm offended. Speaker 5 (9:26) We're going to get to that. Anyway, she gives her and Lou Reed. Do you know who Lou Reed is? So he was the lead singer of the Velvet Underground. You still like Phil? Is that a band? Okay, Walk on the Wild Side. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that song. And they, again, very cool. I mean, this is before my time, to be clear, just in case you Speaker 2 (9:46) stayed to me. This is Speaker 5 (9:47) like the 60s. This is like a long time