Ex-Scientologist Reveals What Really Happens Inside the Sea Org (Tom Cruise, John Travolta & More) - Anne Hill - E197

Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Dr. JC Doornick "The Dragon"

Anne Hill, former high-ranking member of Scientology's Sea Org, shares her journey from a driven, high-achieving individual to a survivor of

Key takeaways

• Recruitment into cults like Scientology often targets emotionally vulnerable, high-achieving individuals at life crossroads.
• Front organizations such as WISE or 'life coaching' services are used to discreetly lure people in without revealing the true nature of the group.

Main topics

• Recruitment strategies used by Scientology
• The role of emotional vulnerability in cult entry

Notable quotes

"I had forgotten what it felt like to be loved and appreciated because I hadn't been for so long."

"They'll pull you in through these organizations that don't look like Scientology."

Conclusion

Anne Hill's story underscores how even intelligent, capable individuals can fall prey to

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) This is what that feels like. I had forgotten what Speaker 2 (0:03) it Speaker 3 (0:03) felt like to be loved and appreciated because I hadn't been for Speaker 2 (0:07) so long. Have you noticed that the world that we live in has been doing most of the thinking for you? That your beliefs, perceptions, reactions, fears, and doubts have been shaped by unsolicited outside noise? How easy it's been for you to slip into that default sleepwalking mode and label it as Speaker 1 (0:27) life and reality. Yeah, that ends Speaker 2 (0:30) here. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. JC podcast. This is your opportunity to start thinking for yourself, reclaim control, and step back into that role as the shock collar and dominant force of your own reality. It's when you change the way that you look at things that the things that you look at begin to change. So let's wake up, let's rise up, and let's make sense of why and how shift happens. Make sense. Speaker 2 (1:02) I want to welcome you officially to the Make Sense with Dr. JC podcast. And should we refer you as Anne Hill or Anne Gollard Hill? Speaker 3 (1:13) Either one's fine. Anne Gollard Hill's on the book. It's on all of my socials too, but it doesn't matter. Anne Hill's fine. Speaker 2 (1:19) Well, then let's stay with that. So my first question that I always ask guests is, what's it like to be Anne these days? Ooh, good question. Speaker 3 (1:30) Calm, peaceful. And it took a long time to get here. It's really nice. You know, I was thinking this morning, actually, I got up and I said, well, I could do some work today or I could just not do some work today because my grandkids are coming over later. So I think I won't. And it was fine. I didn't have any issue with it. And that was not me for a long time. But I'm in a really good space of kind of where I always wanted to be, but never thought I'd get to, you know? Speaker 2 (1:58) Yeah. And Speaker 3 (1:59) I know there's more coming. But this is a great place to be. Speaker 2 (2:03) Well, that's one of the fun things that we're going to get into today. I think what I'm so fascinated with is just like, you know, wherever you are through the lens that you're looking at life through that lens, it either seems okay or it's not. But it seems that your options are endless now. And that's what I'm hearing from you. So I'd love to know a little bit more of like, who was Anne before Scientology? Speaker 3 (2:29) Oh, great question. So before Scientology, I was pretty much the way you see me now, except a lot younger and not understanding life. I was a super high achiever growing up. I was one of those. You know, I always had to get the best grades. I always had to go to the best schools. I was always number one in whatever, because that was just what I wanted to be. Everything seemed easy to me, right? So I thought, there's got to be more. than this. When I found Scientology, I was about 27. Instead of going to graduate school, which I had this all planned, right? I got a degree in linguistics from UCLA, and then I was going to go to the Monterey Institute and become an interpreter and go to the UN. Had it all figured out. Then I met a guy. Speaker 1 (3:15) It's Speaker 3 (3:15) always a guy. And I ended up moving up to San Francisco with him, much to my parents' chagrin. Married him. He was super controlling, which they saw and I didn't, of course. Ended up having a three-year affair with my married boss who was never going to leave his wife. And I started getting into the shame of it all and the guilt of it all. And then the drugs of it all and the alcohol of it all. And I started numbing myself and then I went, okay, Speaker 2 (3:42) this Speaker 3 (3:43) is going to continue for a while, but I need to find a solution to all this because I can do this as long as I want to do it, I suppose. And honestly, I look back at it now, I could have stopped the drugs and alcohol anytime. That wasn't the issue. Speaker 2 (4:01) The Speaker 3 (4:01) issue is I was trying to find a solution. So I read every book, right? I went to every denomination of church you could imagine. I lived in San Francisco at the time. So it was, you know, a plethora of options. I went to therapy after the divorce and nothing clicked. Nothing worked for me. And that's where I was when Scientology entered my life. Well, not really. Where I was was at the very bottom. Like I was a super high achieving person, a searching person, pretty smart person, and utterly devastated because one of my best friends I had just found out had died of AIDS at 24. Speaker 2 (4:43) And Speaker 3 (4:44) it broke me. It broke me. And that day, the day I found that out. This guy calls me who had been talking to me about Scientology, but I really wasn't super into it. He called me, he said, come see me right now. I can help you. Speaker 2 (4:56) I think I mentioned to you when we had a little bit of a first meeting that in all ways that our society would deem, you know, something a cult, my sister would be in, she's in a cult and thank God she's in that cult because she'd probably be dead if she wasn't. But there's this state that somebody needs to be in. in order to become a candidate, a ready candidate for something like that. And I mean, I could tell you all the stories about my sister, but you know, you could call it somebody's at a crossroads. But one of the things that's interesting is that I noticed that there seems to be a trend, especially with people that not only go to Scientology, but go as far as you did. It seems that there's this crossroads, but it's a highly capable person. And my question is, is how did they find you? This guy that was talking to you, this recruiting process, I could understand if you were walking by and you're like, hmm, what's that? You know, like a lot of people do. It almost seems like somebody had been recruiting you and you were like a prime candidate. Am I right? Speaker 3 (6:03) Yeah, it's really funny that you say that because the chapter in my book that talks about it says a prime target. That's the title of it because I absolutely was. So what happened was. I was at a Super Bowl party at my drug dealer's house. Something hit me all of a sudden. And it had been building for a while. And I went into her bedroom and I just started crying. And she follows me and she goes, what's happening? I said, I have no direction in my life. This is crazy what's happening right now. And she looked at me, she says, you know, I have this person. And this, by the way, this drug dealer was not a Scientologist, clearly. But the person that she talked to me about was a something new in 1987, right? A life coach. And I said, okay, well, I'll go see her and see if it helps. And I met this woman and she was so innocuous. She was kind and sweet and gentle and let's help you with these tools. She never once said she was a Scientologist. Speaker 2 (6:59) And Speaker 3 (7:00) that's the sneaky part of it. Like they'll pull you in through these organizations that don't look like Scientology. Speaker 2 (7:07) Like Speaker 3 (7:07) the way to happiness or... their education organization. They have a WISE, World Institute of Scientology Enterprises, but they don't say it out loud. They just say WISE, and then they get into your business. So it's these front organizations. So she was kind of like a front man, so to speak. And she gave me tools to help me. Great. I mean, the tools that they give you at the beginning, just like any cult, they help you, Speaker 2 (7:32) right? Speaker 3 (7:34) And I worked with her for a couple of months, but I wasn't telling her the real dirt. Like she didn't know about the affair, the drugs, the financial mess I was in, all that. She didn't know any of it. And then one day I thought, I trust her. Uh-oh. I trusted her. So I told her and I just started weeping. And she looked at me, she goes, honey. And she held my hand, right, in her sweetness and said, how would you like not to have to feel that way ever again? Speaker 2 (8:03) And I looked at her and said, you're full of shit. Speaker 3 (8:04) Sign me up. Could I swear? All right. I said, you're full of it. And she said, I said, you're full of it. She goes, no, really. Just talk to this guy. I'll set you up with an appointment. And if you don't think it's for you, great. I mean, I used this technique on hundreds of people after I got into Scientology. It's very well laid out. And once they see that spark in you, they got you. Speaker 2 (8:27) Well, one of the interesting things that I'm. looking forward to speaking with you about is that this is not just a Scientology strategy. You know what I mean? Like I know that strategy as well. You know, we learn strategies like the takeaway and things like that. You know, like if it's not for you, it's no big deal. You know, I mean, all these people are having such great results, but it might not be for you. One of the interesting things is that all of this stuff, you know, Scientology, you hear that word and And you just automatically make assumptions, right? Unless you don't know what it is. But these strategies were not created by them, you know. So these are going on in real world all over the place. And now with the advent of social media, you don't even know that they're going on. So, you Speaker 3 (9:15) know, Speaker 2 (9:15) God forbid, you know, David M gets like really figures out social media. Like we're all going to be Scientologists. God forbid, it's right. So. It's true. This is just, it's just so fascinating. And I want people to understand that, you know, and I know that you could probably validate that some of the most talented and smartest people you've ever met were probably in that organization. Am I correct? A Speaker 3 (9:43) hundred percent, especially at the level I was. Right. I mean, the people that have left there and rebuilt their lives for the most part are just doing incredibly. Well, because they're very capable and very smart and very talented. So once they got through all the mental crap, then they were able to actually use the skills, the intelligence they already had, the ability they already had to rebuild their life, you know? Speaker 2 (10:09) So you went and met with them and did you have an audit? You know, I guess what I'm curious to know is, did it immediately make sense or did it feel strange at first? What was that like? Speaker 3 (10:21) So at first... I was wary, right? But this guy made me feel so comfortable. Nice guy, unassuming. But he knew what he was talking about because he'd been in Scientology for so long, Speaker 2 (10:35) right? Speaker 3 (10:35) So he had all the stuff down and he knew exactly what to say to me. But what got to me, I mean, we did a personality test where I had to fill out this 200 question test and then he would lay out a chart and tell me what was wrong with me, basically, which I then did. when I was in Scientology on so many people. But the thing that got me was like, I told you my friend died and he called me that day and I came over and he did a Dianetics auditing session on me. That's a processing that you do where you go back and you look at the incident and then you run it through. You know, it's Freudian in a lot of ways Speaker 1 (11:14) because Speaker 3 (11:15) Hubbard studied with, you know, Freudian psychoanalysis and all kinds of things when he was developing. all of this. But he ran me through this incident of when I found out my friend Chris died and it wasn't getting any better. So he said, okay, go earlier and then go earlier and then go earlier. And I found the moment, I went back to this moment where I was a little baby girl and my dog died. I didn't know that I had any feeling about that and I just lost it. Speaker 1 (11:42) And Speaker 3 (11:43) then all of a sudden, Speaker 3 (11:47) Gone. All the emotion, all the pain. I could just look at it logically for what it was and move on. I was able to go to my friend's funeral and actually eulogize him where I would never have been able to do that before. So it really like, whoa, what is this stuff? Speaker 2 (12:04) So you can see Speaker 3 (12:05) why that would get to me, right? Speaker 2 (12:06) We'll get a copy of my book to you and you'll be like, shit, I wish I had just read this book. Because in my book, I call that moment. there's a different, I have a different way of bringing people to that moment. I call it a snap moment. Speaker 3 (12:20) I Speaker 2 (12:20) went through a snap moment where I was at a phase in my life where I actually wanted to kill myself. That's how deep and dark I was. And through a series of questions, somebody asked me, just like you, I mean, not only did I feel better, but I was completely healed and just in a flash. And it was so monumental that I just built my whole career on that moment. So, boy, Speaker 3 (12:45) you know, that really makes a lot of sense to me. Well, Speaker 2 (12:48) that's the whole makes sense brand. Speaker 3 (12:50) No, but it really does, because that's exactly right. It was that moment when I went, whoa. And I'm the kind of person who was Anne before Scientology, extremely like if I love something, I am 100 % in it. That's it. There's no anything else for me. And so I was in. That was it. So Speaker 2 (13:13) let's talk about that idea of being in because I had this snap moment. And what I was in with was the idea of helping other people do that. But is it safe to say that you credited this guy and and his system with it? And that prompted you to say, I'm in with that. Yes. Because there's a difference. Like I, I had something like that happened to me and I made a decision not to join an organization. I just made a decision on my, my cause and my calling in life. But you probably at some point, and this is probably what is so special about that audit is that you credited that moment and that freedom. with Scientology and that guy. And that is what set you up to do whatever came next. Am I correct? Speaker 3 (14:04) Correct. That's exactly what happened. That was my first. experience in my life where something happened that rapidly. Speaker 2 (14:15) Yeah. Speaker 3 (14:15) Yes. Yes. I just love this. Yeah. I got to read your book. Speaker 2 (14:19) Yeah. You'll be pissed. You'll be pissed. I probably will. Here's an interesting question. I hope you can answer it. Looking back, you know, from this moment now, what psychological need do you think that Scientology initially fulfilled for you? Speaker 3 (14:39) Belonging. Speaker 2 (14:40) Belonging. So that's, did you figure out that's all you were looking for? So it didn't really, they could have been like a satanic cult and you were, it could have been anything. Speaker 3 (14:49) It could have been anything. And that's the truth. My parents and I had, well, they practically disowned me when I married my first husband and we hadn't spoken. Even after the divorce, when I called, I finally pick up the phone to call my mother and tell her. And, you know, she was fine with it. She was happy about it, but it had, it was a huge rift and they were far, far away. And my mother was always my rock. Speaker 2 (15:11) She Speaker 3 (15:11) was, she was my. person. And so I was very unstable as far as that went. I didn't really, I mean, I had friends, right? But I didn't have the people I grew up with. I didn't have this core group of people around me that kind of felt like we were all moving in the same direction, so to speak. Speaker 2 (15:32) And Speaker 3 (15:32) boy, do you find that in Scientology, big time. Speaker 2 (15:35) Well, you find that in any, including some of the most popular religions. Speaker 3 (15:41) A hundred percent. Speaker 2 (15:41) You know, so once again, I just want to always like, I'm not here defending Scientology, but I just want everybody to just like awaken and just recognize that this shit is going on everywhere. It's not just happening in that building. So one thing that outsiders, I want to help people understand a little bit more because, you know, this is. this wonderful human right now she's on the other side of this and we're going to get into the nitty gritty of that but you know people don't just join something thinking like oh i'd like to lose 20 years of my life gradually over time you know like so she's she's a human being and and there were different phases but can you kind of walk us through the progression of this thing? Like, what are, you know, the first commitments that somebody makes? And how does the organization kind of progressively earn your deeper trust over time to the point where you're like, I mean, is this like, is this like a job promotion when you go see org? Or is this like them taking do they handpick people for that? So I take take me through the progression, because you first came in there. And, and What are the steps of making it go from this personal growth, like aha moment to something else where all of a sudden you might feel like, wow, I'm frigging important now. This is crazy. Boy, Speaker 3 (17:06) you ask good questions. I'm so glad I'm doing this. So first of all, I started out as any other public Scientologist. So you've got different levels of Scientology in terms of commitment, right? You've got your public Scientologists. They're just your everyday people. doing their work, you know, living their life, just