Testing My Friends on English Grammar / Irregular Verbs with Amber & Paul 🎯 [1003]

Luke's ENGLISH Podcast - Learn British English with Luke Thompson

Host Luke Thompson tests his friends Amber and Paul on their knowledge of English irregular verbs through a natural, unscripted conversation.

Key takeaways

• Native speakers rely heavily on procedural memory, allowing them to use grammar correctly without being able to name specific rules or parts of speech.
• The past participle of 'run' is 'run,' a fact that can cause momentary confusion for native speakers when stripped of linguistic context.

Main topics

• Irregular Verb Quiz
• Procedural vs. Declarative Memory

Notable quotes

The reason they're struggling at this point is because of the word past participle, which is not a word that native speakers think about.

Conclusion

An engaging way to reinforce irregular verb forms while providing deep

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Thank you for choosing Luke's English Podcast. For more episodes with specific vocabulary and pronunciation teaching, plus ad-free listening, access to the Premium community, and to show your support for the podcast, sign up to LEP Premium at teachaluke.co.uk slash premium. You're listening to Luke's English Podcast. For more information, visit teachaluke.co.uk. Speaker 1 (0:35) Hello listeners and welcome back to Luke's English Podcast. This episode today features my friends Amber and Paul. Yes, Amber and Paul are back on the podcast and in this one I will be testing them on their knowledge of English grammar, specifically irregular verbs. I'm going to quiz them on the irregular verbs list and also you'll hear the usual anecdotes and memories and funny comments with the irregular verbs also used. in context throughout the episode. Now, I should say that it might be difficult for you to understand everything in this episode, depending on your level of English. But I say that because we're speaking totally naturally without grading our English. Normally, if it's just me on the podcast on my own, it's much easier for you to understand than when I'm in conversation with a guest or indeed with two guests. And when it's two guests and the three of us, are good friends, we know each other really well, the conversation starts to get quite fast, we all have things to say, we kind of maybe interrupt each other a bit, start speaking quite quickly, the conversation moves this way, it moves that way, that is totally natural. I think it's actually really important listening practice for you to listen to conversations like this in English. But before I start the conversation, before you actually listen to the Amber and Paul stuff, I think I should do an introduction first in order to help everyone to follow this and therefore to get more out of this in terms of learning and enjoyment. Now, will my introduction here be 20 minutes long? I don't know because I haven't done it yet. But if you'd rather skip this introduction, feel free to do so. OK, you can just skip the episode forward by about 16 minutes and 30 seconds. In fact, you could. Skip forward to this point now, 18 minutes and 45 seconds. Okay, and just start the Amber and Paul bit if you want to. Okay, right, so if you're still with me, I'm assuming you are happy to listen to my introduction, which I carefully prepared earlier. Now, the basic idea of the conversation that you're about to hear is quite simple, okay? We're going to take one of the most notoriously boring things in English learning. That is the list of irregular verbs and see if we can somehow turn it into an entertaining conversation. OK, so irregular verbs. Of course, you know, the list of irregular verbs. If you've ever studied English from a course book or in a classroom or something like that or with self-study materials, you will have no doubt come across the list of irregular verbs. Maybe when you were a child at school and you had those English lessons that you might have hated. You probably spent time dealing with the list of irregular verbs. For example, right now I am holding a copy of English Grammar in Use by Raymond Murphy, the blue grammar book. One of the best-selling books of all time. Right, that's how desperately people want to learn English, that everyone buys a copy of this book and does their best to sort of learn English from it. And there's a list of irregular verbs at the back. You know, I'm talking about things like, what, fly, what, fly, what's the past form of fly, flew, yes, past participle, flown, fly, flew, flown, forbid, I forbid you from going. I forbid you from going to that party, meaning you're not allowed to go there. Forbid in the past. Forbade. Past participle. Forbidden, of course. So you remember all this stuff. Beat, beat, beaten, become, became, become, begin, began, begun. Yeah, of course you do. Sorry for bringing back painful memories from school there, possibly. But, you know, this episode just had to be done today, as you will see. Now, obviously, my friends Amber and Paul are native English speakers. So they know these verbs and their forms, right? Well, yes, they should. But I have to say, native speakers, including the ones who don't normally make grammatical errors in their English, sometimes have moments of doubt when it comes to the grammar of their own language. And I think this is interesting. So what will happen when I suddenly put Amber and Paul on the spot? Because they don't know what the... When we did this, they didn't know what the episode would be about. It was a total surprise. So what do you think is going to happen when I put them on the spot and ask them, hey, what's the past participle of run, for example? Now, as you will hear, sometimes they have to stop and think. Sometimes they're just not sure, which is interesting. Normally, in fluent speech, it's not a problem. You know, they're just constructing their sentences correctly the vast majority of the time. But when they are asked to explicitly name the past participle of run, for example, the answer... doesn't come quickly. And that is quite interesting because it shows that there's a difference between knowing how to use your language automatically when speaking fluently and being able to consciously explain its grammar or perhaps to recall grammatical forms in lists. We get into that a bit in this episode, including the difference between procedural and declarative memory. and what that might tell us about how we actually learn grammar, or how we should learn grammar. And that came up in last week's episode, of course. Speaker 1 (6:14) But that's all interesting stuff. But if you looked at the title of this and you saw irregular verbs and you thought, oh, what, really? That's why I listen to this podcast, Luke, because I don't want boring grammar lessons. Well, don't worry, it's definitely not just two hours of us trying to recite irregular verbs in these unnatural lists, right? Because for every verb in the list that I've prepared, I've also prepared a question which then gets us talking and using those verbs. in context, in natural speech. So the irregular verb stuff quickly turns into those irregular verbs being used in stories and memories and ridiculous anecdotes and arguments and tangents and the usual delightful chaos of an Amber and Paul episode. So it's also irregular verbs in context. Now here's something you can do while you're listening to this. You can play along with us. So whenever I give Amber and Paul a verb, see if you can say, even if it's just in your head, the past form and past participle forms too. You could even pause the episode before Amber and Paul answer and see how they respond. And perhaps most importantly, pay attention to the verbs when they appear naturally in the conversation too. When the three of us share our answers to the questions that I've prepared. Because that's really the point. It's one thing to memorise, for example, bite, bit, bitten. for example, but it's another thing to actually hear someone say that past participle in communication, in conversation. For example, have you ever bitten something and immediately regretted it? And this is arguably a much better way to learn irregular verbs properly. Now, this is a debate. What's the best way to learn grammar? Is it to learn it explicitly by studying it in a book? by looking at the rules, by memorising the irregular verbs list? Or is it better to learn it more closely to the way that native speakers learn their language, which is in a more implicit way? Hmm. I mean, that's a difficult question to answer because obviously you think, well, I'd love to be able to learn it like native speakers learn it, Luke, but how do you actually do that? Well, the idea is that by actually connecting with language in a meaningful way, by listening to people using it and reading it being used, by having that regular contact with the English language, that... Essentially, learning irregular verbs happens as a consequence, and you get to the point where you can just do it too. And recalling irregular verbs or past participles from a list is a really unnatural way of doing it, and therefore doesn't convert to natural spoken fluency. That is the idea, right? Because have you ever bitten? For example, have you ever bitten something and immediately regretted it? It's a weird question, I admit. But still, this is still much more common and is still a much more high-frequency chunk of English. Have you ever bitten? It's a much more high-frequency chunk of English that people are much more likely to say in conversation and that you are much more likely to say one day, or at least have you ever passed participle? Have you ever eaten? Have you ever bitten? Have you ever been? Have you ever flown? Right. Speaker 1 (9:45) That is a much more common sequence of words than bite, bit, bitten, which school kids all over the world are doing right now. They're going bite, bit, bitten, become, became, become. They're doing these things. That's not a common sequence of words, right? Putting the word in a sentence, that is the verb actually doing its job in a meaningful context. And listening to that might actually be a much better way to get those grammatical forms. properly lodged in your brain following the conclusions of last week's episode about neuroscience and learning English. So this is partly an irregular verbs lesson, partly a conversation about how we learn languages, and partly just three friends talking nonsense for a couple of hours with a bunch of irregular verbs sprinkled in to the mix. Now we are very nearly ready to start, I promise. But I just wanted to say that we don't actually get into the irregular verbs list straight away. What a surprise. There is some rambling conversation first. And things actually start with the discussion of how native speakers learn and think about grammar. Right. Now, this first part of the conversation might be confusing, might be confusing. How do you say that word? Confusing, not confusing, confusing. This first part of the conversation might be a bit confusing because we, the three of us, were all a bit excited because we love doing the podcast together. And also we were full of coffee. The conversation moves around a lot. And we speak quite quickly and occasionally interrupt each other, so you might not understand everything. But think of it this way, right? Listening to this episode, it's a bit like walking through a forest. Speaker 1 (11:28) OK, imagine it like that. You're walking through a forest. Now, there's the main content of the conversation. And this is the path that you are trying to follow through this dense forest. And then there are trees, branches, vines and leaves that are also growing around the path. And also other little mini paths that branch off from the main path. Lots of things, obstacles and things like that. Now, these things are. The little side comments and jokes and tangents and moments of distraction in the conversation, right? But you have to try to stick to the path and get through. Okay? So the main path, this is the central structure of the conversation, the main topics and content. Try to focus on that. Try to stick to the path and don't be too bothered by those other bits, the long grass, the branches, the leaves that are in your face, the occasional rabbit hole in the ground that you might get your ankle trapped in and you fall over and break your leg and then you get eaten by wolves. No, don't do that. Don't trip up on a tree root. Speaker 1 (12:40) OK, don't get distracted by another little path that takes you off into a very dark part of the forest where a bear will eat you. Right. No, just keep going and stick to the path. And while you're listening, don't be too bothered by the bits you don't understand. Just keep trying to focus on the main points, especially in the first part of this conversation, before the irregular verbs list begins. Right. I want to help you. This introduction is supposed to help you rather than confuse you even more. So here is a little map of that path, some of the main points in the first part of this conversation before we get to the irregular verbs list. And this is to make sure you don't get lost in the forest right at the beginning and get eaten by wild animals of different sizes. And remember, listening to fluent speakers, speaking quickly together is good practice. It will prepare you for understanding English in real world situations. Speaker 1 (13:33) So, what happens at the beginning? Well, I tell my friends Amber and Paul that we're going to do a grammar episode, and their reactions are quite interesting. Amber, first of all, feels that she doesn't understand English grammar, even though she teaches little kids to read at a bilingual school. So, she teaches kids who already speak English to read better. Amber does many things. She is an excellent tour guide in Paris. She's read all the books. She knows all the history. She knows a lot of things. She's very wise and brilliant. Paul is also brilliant and clever and very quick-witted person who studied linguistics at university. He studied Spanish and French and is an excellent learner of other languages. His French and Spanish are like... incredibly good. And he's a brilliant comedian, as you will know if you've ever seen him on stage. So they're both educated native English speakers, right? But Amber doesn't feel that she understands English grammar, even though she teaches little kids to read at a bilingual school. Amber does many things. Amber, by the way, is also helping Paul's daughter Louise to improve her reading. And then, as you'll hear, there's a tangent about Louise learning a Northern Irish accent from her grandmother and from her other new teacher. So Louise is probably going to end up having a Northern Irish accent, which we find quite funny because we love a Northern Irish accent. It's very distinctive. For example, how are you sounds like, how are you? How are you doing? How are you doing now? That's the little tangent about the Northern Irish accent. Anyway, back to the main point. We nearly got lost there, didn't we? We nearly got eaten by a deer or something. Deer don't eat people. Native English speakers don't actually study grammar at school these days. I know. It's shocking. You're shocked. I know. I'm shocked. We're all shocked. Our parents' generation did study grammar at school, including the study of Latin for some reason. Like, my dad studied Latin. You know, they used to study Latin so that they could understand the grammar of Latin, which would then help them understand the grammar of English and other languages. Which is a bit of a weird thing to do, isn't it? Like, study the grammar of this dead language in order to understand the grammar of your language that you already know. You know, why not just study the grammar of English directly? Anyway. But our generation didn't really do and continues not to do a thing. I think grammar at school in the same way that you learn grammar to learn English. And this may still be the case, I think. Instead, we. I focused and Paul and Amber and I, all three of us, focused more on practical things like how to use English, apply English to more practical things like different forms of writing and so on. Rather than studying the actual structure of the language, we studied how to actually apply it to do things in English. But we agree that it's a pity not to be fully aware of the grammar of your own language and indeed many other aspects of linguistics, including things like phonology. Yes, education can definitely be improved in the UK, just like in many other places. OK, so there's this messy conversation about native speakers learning grammar and stuff. And then we get into the irregular verbs. But really, this chaotic conversation about grammar at the start serves these purposes. So it's. It explains why native speakers struggle to describe the grammar of their own language. It hopefully will show why native English speakers don't remember grammar rules explicitly like the way many learners of English do, but just know their grammar implicitly at an instinctive level, so that they know the answer to a grammar question, but they just don't know why, which many learners of English want but can't really achieve or find it difficult to. And also, this conversation shows that being a native speaker doesn't mean using grammar perfectly. In fact, many native speakers do make errors in their grammar. Some of these errors are seen as acceptable and just part of colloquial speech or dialects of English. But then some errors made by native speakers are generally just thought to be wrong and bad. OK, I thought that I would be helping you with this introduction. For some reason now I feel like I've confused you more, but you can let me know in the comments. But anyway, we're going to start now. See, when we get to the irregular verbs bit, see how many verbs you can actually get right. Notice how much English you can pick up from the conversation along the way. But above all, I really hope you enjoy listening to this and that you enjoy being immersed in this conversation in English here. OK, right, good. How long was this introduction? How long have I been talking? I don't know, actually. Um, can I see how long this has been? Oh, it's about, it's approximately 20 minutes. What a surprise. I just can't help it, can I? But that's all right. You are now ready to listen to the conversation. And so without any further ado, let's get into it. I'll talk to you a little bit at the end. Okay, but for now, let's get started. And here we go. Speaker 1 (19:13) Amber's got a lovely voice. If I could choose an accent, hers would be my choice. Yeah. Speaker 1 (19:19) Three, two, one, and we are live. It's actually happening. Paul, what's the situation? The situation is Speaker 2 (19:26) we are back from school holidays in Paris in the Pod Castle. And we just had lunch. had some smash burgers, Argentinian burgers, because we thought, oh, you know, they beat us in the World Cup, so we might as well... Eat their food. Yeah, exactly. And pay them for it. And pay them for it, yeah. Although the woman at the desk was clearly French, but she's probably married Speaker 1 (19:50) to an Argentinian. He was probably the guy in the back. Yes, I expect so, yes. They were good. I didn't know Argentinians Speaker 2 (19:55) were specialised in smash burgers, to be honest. They specialise Speaker 3 (19:59) in meat. Beef. Oh, that is true. That is all they eat. Speaker 2 (20:02) Yeah. Speaker 1 (20:02) All shapes and sizes. That's true. Yeah. That's true. Right. It was tasty, though. It was good. And here we are. Now, I have a plan for this. Go on. I actually have a plan for the episode. I was going to say, first of all, thank you for your questions for episode 1000. Yeah. I appreciated that very much. It's nice to have you back on the podcast. And I do have a plan for this episode. I thought that following the long tradition of teaching Paul how to speak his own language. Speaker 3 (20:35) We could Speaker 1 (20:36) do some sort of grammar based episode together. Oh, yes. I love it. OK. Yeah. Speaker 3 (20:40) Much as I feel that I can speak English, grammar is a mystery to Speaker 2 (20:45) me. Is it really? A mystery. Says the person who teaches English at an English school. Reading Speaker 3 (20:50) to five year olds. There's no grammar. No grammar. That's Speaker 2 (20:53) true. It's all you teach. Can your daughter read? Speaker 3 (20:56) Yes. Speaker 2 (20:56) Half. Well. Yeah. My daughter's going. She's not going to be in Amber's class. But she is going, her English was good enough to get into, well, I mean, it was half good enough and then Amber, you know, she did Speaker 1 (21:10) the... No, Speaker 2 (21:11) it was good Speaker 1 (21:11) enough. Let me just explain. So Amber, you teach English to little kids in a school. No, I teach reading. Okay, you teach reading. I Speaker 3 (21:20) teach Speaker 1 (21:20) phonics. Like, they already speak English. I teach them how to read it. That's converting the written word into the spoken word Speaker 3 (21:26) as well. Speaker 1 (21:26) Do you Speaker 3 (21:26) always Speaker 1 (21:26) do the same year? P1? Yeah. Is it P1 or P2? Speaker 3 (21:29) P1, Grand Selection. Speaker 1 (21:30) Okay, so you're doing phonics, probably following the Jolly Phonics programme? Speaker 3 (21:34) Absolutely Jolly Phonics, yes. Yes, okay. Speaker 1 (21:36) And you do that in a... kind of a bilingual section of a school somewhere in the region. And your daughter is going to be joining this school. But you've been actually helping Paul's daughter plus Sarah's kids. Yes. And your daughter too. So you've got this mini class and you've been helping them with their reading. Speaker 3 (21:56) Exactly. And I will say that Paul's daughter was the best in the class. Speaker 1 (22:00) Really? By Speaker 3 (22:00) a lot. She was the only one that listened to me. Yeah, she's pretty studious. And did any work. Which Speaker 1 (22:06) is Speaker 3 (22:06) good. So not at all like Speaker 1 (22:07) Paul. Speaker 3 (22:07) And she'll ask me sometimes. Speaker 2 (22:08) times like can we do some of the English book because I bought her a book well there was a book like one of those CGP remember when we did I mean, when we did... Because I did them ten years after you Speaker 1 (22:17) guys. Yeah, I don't remember at all. Speaker 2 (22:19) The revision guides for A-levels and GCSEs or whatever. There was this brand of books called CGP. And they do things for young kids. So anyway, I got this book and she's like, oh, can we do it again? I was like, oh yeah, let's do it. So she is... Why were we talking about that? Well, basically, this is a preamble Speaker 1 (22:35) to the fact that we're going to do something about grammar. Oh, grammar, yeah. And Amber said, I don't know anything about grammar. And you said, don't Speaker 2 (22:41) do it. Speaker 1 (22:41) So... Speaker 2 (22:43) She doesn't know Speaker 1 (22:43) this yet because we haven't told her. Speaker 2 (22:45) Louise. But we've... Her teacher is from the same place that my mother is from. Speaker 1 (22:52) Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland. So now my daughter's got two Northern Irish influences. So she's just going to be like, what about you, Speaker 2 (23:00) kid? You fucking bastards. Speaker 1 (23:03) She's got no chance. She's definitely going to end up speaking like she's from Belfast. Hey, spotty dog. Dead on, hey, spotty dog. OK, so the phonics program is mainly reading and spelling and pronunciation. Speaker 3 (23:17) Oh, Speaker 1 (23:17) I might be better at grammar than you then. Speaker 3 (23:19) Yeah, no, because you studied linguistics. You are probably much better, even though you also studied English. Speaker 1 (23:24) What Speaker 2 (23:25) did you do at university? French and Hispanic studies. And it was all of the grammar, all of the phonetics, all of the linguistics around both of those languages. So I know nothing about English. Speaker 3 (23:39) Because we, I don't know about you, but there was nearly no grammar taught when I was growing up. Like in school, there was nearly no grammar. And even though I went to university and did English literature, there was quite a lot of writing. Speaker 3 (23:53) Many a time they complained about my horrible grammar. Why is there Speaker 2 (23:56) no grammar taught at schools? Speaker 1 (23:57) Oh, that's a... I don't know, really. How do you know? Speaker 3 (23:59) I think there's phases, aren't there? I mean, it's like... So phonics, for example, went out of favour in the United States and now no one can read. And it used to be that you had, like, English literature and English language and there was lots of grammar. And then they kind of stopped teaching the grammar in favour of literacy. And I don't know if they've got back into the grammar, but certainly when I was growing up, there was nearly no grammar taught. Speaker 1 (24:19) Same for me. Like, for my... Parents' generation, my dad went to a grammar school, they called it, which is just a... Oh, Speaker 2 (24:26) is that why they called them grammar schools? I suppose. Speaker 1 (24:28) Because Speaker 2 (24:28) they Speaker 1 (24:28) were more interested in, like, Speaker 2 (24:29) learning about... No, that can't be right. It Speaker 1 (24:32) was called a grammar school. It was basically just a sort of school with a certain level of literacy studies rather than sort of practical studies for... you know, doing home economics and things like that. My dad went to Bradford Grammar. Yeah. So for our parents, probably about the age of 11 years old, they had to take a test. And if you pass that test, you go on to a grammar school. If you fail the test, you go on and you basically do stuff that's not going to challenge your brain too much, more Speaker 2 (25:02) practical Speaker 1 (25:03) things about how to... Do they still have grammar schools? They don't do that anymore. Speaker 2 (25:06) So we just call it... What do we call them in England? Is it state and... Private schools or state and public, but public means private? Wait a Speaker 1 (25:12) minute. No, so you've got state schools, which are public schools, and then private schools that you pay for, and then there's public schools, which are forms of private school, but they are the very elite ones. Speaker 2 (25:28) So Eton and Harrow and stuff like Speaker 1 (25:30) that. We call them public schools. Oh, that's why we say Speaker 2 (25:34) public school boy. Exactly. But it's like, that's the wrong... word. It's not public at all. It's completely private. It's more than private. But Speaker 1 (25:42) the Speaker 3 (25:42) best private. It's like Speaker 2 (25:43) elite Speaker 1 (25:43) private. Speaker 3 (25:44) They Speaker 1 (25:44) should call them elite schools. They should. They should do. There's historical reasons why they're called public schools. And the Speaker 2 (25:50) reason I was talking about the grammar thing, because I did my live last night and I was talking about the French education system and somebody was saying that they were a French person doing a either a PhD or a degree in England and they were shocked at how little English people knew about how to write a thesis and I didn't quite understand they were like yeah in France we learn how to write a thesis but they've got a very Speaker 3 (26:18) particular way of writing it which is already different to how we do it in England I mean they can write with the fists and the antithesis and all this but they can't give a presentation. But they, everyone has their own system. Honestly, I only learned about grammar when I started teaching English as a foreign language. And I didn't even, loads of vocabulary I'd never heard of it before. Like, what is the past participle? I mean, I just didn't know. When Speaker 1 (26:39) I was at secondary school, Yes, I had English language and English literature. I did too. I didn't do anything. English literature is fairly easy to understand, you know, reading and writing. Shakespeare and all that. Shakespeare and different stories and so on. And English language, yeah, there wasn't a focus on grammar. We didn't pass any sentences. I don't remember what we did in English language. I remember doing stuff like how to write a business letter, how to write an application letter. And also things like literary... techniques, so the difference between a metaphor and a simile and those sorts of things rather than This is a noun. This is a verb. This is an adjective. Let's pass this sentence into its parts of speech. You know, all that stuff. Whereas my dad studied Latin at school, not because he would need to learn Latin, but because, you know, it's a blueprint for grammar, for understanding grammar. Standards change and different attitudes about language change. And there came a point where the powers that be decided that just studying grammar is less... useful than studying more sort of pragmatic practical applications of language. Speaker 3 (27:48) It's Speaker 1 (27:48) such Speaker 3 (27:48) a shame it is so important. Yeah I think so. Really important I mean I have taught it obviously at quite a low level because I taught CM2 I say that as children who are like 10? 10 CM2? Yeah. So I taught CM2 and CM1 and so as well as the reading we also teach them grammar. And but yeah, I remember it was something that I was learning with them. I really felt like I this is not something I really know very well. OK, Speaker 1 (28:14) but the grammar point that we're going to look at today. Speaker 3 (28:18) Yeah. Speaker 1 (28:19) Don't worry. You're getting stressed out. Oh, what is it? No, Speaker 2 (28:23) I Speaker 1 (28:23) was Speaker 2 (28:23) I saw something that made me laugh in the background. It's your your electric. thing which is run by Speaker 3 (28:30) schneider electric yeah Speaker 2 (28:32) because they they used to be the they were the host they do the running they they were the the marathon uh main sponsor of the marathon the paris marathon but they've just announced like today it's they're no longer part of it um and it's asics who are the the so but i used to always go like that Speaker 1 (28:48) schneider electric marathon because it Speaker 2 (28:52) sounds Speaker 1 (28:52) like it's german Speaker 2 (28:53) but Speaker 1 (28:53) it's not it's french There's a tangent that a lot of people, that's confused so many people in podcast land. Paul is talking about the electricity box that I have on the wall here that, you know, the little thing that counts your electricity. Anyway, the grammar point we're Speaker 2 (29:10) going Speaker 1 (29:10) to look at is actually incredibly easy for native speakers in theory. Right now, the reason that I'm bringing this up is let me just read from my notes here a little bit. I'm actually going to start this with a question for you, Paul. What is the past participle of the verb to run? Speaker 1 (29:26) There's a reason I'm asking this question. Podcast listeners. What's the past participle of the verb to run? I've just got to remember what a past participle is. Do you know what a past participle is? It's the Speaker 2 (29:36) same in French. I have... Hold on. I run today. It's funny that we're talking about running. See, it wasn't completely off. Today, I... Look at how confused they Speaker 1 (29:47) are, both of them. You just Speaker 3 (29:49) have the run. Speaker 1 (29:50) Run, Speaker 3 (29:50) run, run. Speaker 1 (29:51) No. No. No. So let me put it in a sentence. It's going to make it. So listeners are already shocked. Hold on. Hold on. I'm going to try and get it right though. The reason that listeners, the reason that Amber and Paul are struggling. Wait a minute. The reason they're struggling at this point is because of the word past participle, which is not a word that native speakers think about. They don't. Speaker 2 (30:12) If I put it in a sentence. But in French, I know it's the same thing as it is in French. Wait a minute. Is it? It might not be. Speaker 1 (30:17) Hold on a minute. It might not be. Okay. If I put it in a sentence. sentence yeah you'll probably get it instantly so let's say if uh we put it in a sentence i may have i may have what i may have hmm a thousand kilometers so i every day i run yesterday i ran run i have Run? It's run. Yeah, it's run. That's Speaker 3 (30:45) what Speaker 2 (30:45) I said. Play the tape back. I said it earlier and I was like, I have run. He Speaker 3 (30:48) did Speaker 2 (30:48) say it. Speaker 3 (30:48) I said ran. I Speaker 1 (30:49) don't know how you managed to say ran, but I guess, you know what this tells us, though? We Speaker 3 (30:55) don't Speaker 1 (30:55) know. Speaker 3 (30:56) It tells Speaker 1 (30:57) us you don't know your own language. Speaker 3 (30:58) Minute two in, we Speaker 1 (31:00) are idiots. No, we're Speaker 3 (31:01) all in the same boat. Speaker 1 (31:03) I think it's something about where grammar is actually stored in your mind and the way that you recall it. I was asking you to kind of actively pick out your knowledge of grammar in a sort of what's called declarative way, right? But grammar doesn't work like that. When you process it, when you're using language, it's part of procedural memory, apparently, which is the same kind of memory that you use for, for example, catching a ball when it's thrown to you or kicking a football or hitting a smash shot in tennis. It's something that is kind of automatic. Is that because we Speaker 3 (31:39) don't have complex grammar? Because French people do actively learn grammar. Speaker 1 (31:44) Okay, yeah. They know Speaker 3 (31:45) all the words for the passive composing and all of this. Yeah, that is true. Because we don't learn, well, I mean, we haven't, but I mean, is that just because our grammar is so straightforward? Speaker 1 (31:55) Maybe. Maybe French people have to not only learn grammar in a procedural way, but I think most of their grammar is learned intuitively. But they also have to, because there are a lot of complicated conjugations and things, they probably do have to apply themselves and learn it in a declarative way, in the same way that they would learn a... Anything else like, for example, dates in history, that's declarative memory. What did you call Speaker 2 (32:19) it? It's past Speaker 1 (32:20) participle, right? Past participle. Speaker 2 (32:21) Yeah, which is where you have the auxiliary Speaker 1 (32:25) to have before the verb. Could be, yeah. It could be in a perfect form. I have run. Or it could be in a passive form. For example, the pizza was eaten. by someone. I have eaten a pizza. The pizza was eaten. The pizza has been eaten. So in that passive form, that has a past participle. Sometimes past participles are used as adjectives like a sort of a... The pizza has been eaten. Sounds Speaker 3 (32:57) like something my daughter would say. Where's the pizza? The pizza has been eaten. By no one in Speaker 2 (33:02) particular. Nothing Speaker 3 (33:03) to do with me. One of the Speaker 2 (33:04) biggest grammar mistakes that English native speakers make is... that they will replace the past participle with just the past tense. So like, I can imagine something, what did you say, the pizza has been eaten? Yeah. You could imagine people being like, oh, the pizza's been ate. Speaker 1 (33:21) Yeah. I mean, I was listening to a podcast with Carl Pilkington. Yeah. And he said something was roted. So that's not written, but he said wrote it, which is hilarious. Yeah, right. Wrote written, but he came up with wrote it. But Speaker 3 (33:41) it's like children. Like, you know, it's so interesting, like hearing my daughter speak English or say things. Like, I thwarted. I thwarted. And of course, I've never said that. But she's used her logic. This is a past. I've used a past tense. And so she's been, you know, I think I thwarted. Speaker 1 (33:57) And I'm Speaker 3 (33:57) like, so right and wrong, darling. But it's so interesting to see how they iron that out. Children go on a Speaker 1 (34:05) journey learning grammar and they develop their own rules, which they test. And then they revise. And that's exactly. one of them is that they make all verbs become regular verbs with an ed ending like my daughter used to say goad instead of went and they test it until they realise it doesn't work and then they develop a new rule and you know eventually they get there I don't want my listeners to think that you don't know your own language. I think it's just a question of... Native speakers do learn languages in this implicit way. Yeah, but Speaker 2 (34:43) they will hear native speakers make... Because the reason I... Rotid, though. I'm sorry. That's extraordinary. That's just hilarious. You must have... I imagine that during the World Cup and maybe before, if you're into football quite a lot, you listen to maybe Gary Lineker, Micah Richards, Alan Shearer. Yes. Speaker 1 (34:59) So... There's a thing with Micah Richards where he makes a lot of English mistakes. But Speaker 2 (35:05) it's one of those things where it's accepted or it's like a normal English mistake. Ian Wright Speaker 1 (35:12) does it as well. Ian Wright when he's doing... I'm trying to think of a... Well, there's loads of examples of basically when native speakers use English in quotes a wrong way, but it's just considered to be unconventional. You know, like so many people say ain't, for example, it ain't, you know, I ain't done nothing. Speaker 2 (35:33) Yeah. You Speaker 1 (35:34) know, an ain't is not technically correct. But I mean, it's just a feature of colloquial English. And that includes other quote unquote rule, you know, breaking of rules. But you're getting into social issues there with that because some communities will use English in a different way to the quote-unquote correct way. We're getting into questions of language and what is incorrect language. Like we Speaker 2 (36:03) was. People Speaker 1 (36:03) would go, Speaker 2 (36:04) oh yeah, we was at Speaker 1 (36:05) the supermarket earlier on. Or Speaker 3 (36:07) that of instead of. Speaker 1 (36:09) Should of. But that's written English and I consider that to be. more of an unacceptable mistake. Speaker 3 (36:15) It's very unacceptable. Speaker 1 (36:16) Than, for example, saying, give it to us. Speaker 3 (36:20) Yeah. Meaning Speaker 1 (36:21) give it to me. Like a lot of people in communities will say us. Speaker 3 (36:24) There's loads Speaker 1 (36:24) of places where Speaker 3 (36:24) you'll say us for me. Speaker 1 (36:26) Yeah. It depends Speaker 3 (36:27) where you are in the country. I'll give us a hand, will you? Speaker 2 (36:30) Give us a Speaker 3 (36:31) hand with this. You're Speaker 2 (36:31) picking Speaker 1 (36:32) up a box like, oh, mate, give us a hand with this. Give us a hand with it. It's like, Speaker 2 (36:36) give us. Who's us? Can you imagine the foreigner who's learned perfect English being like, who is us? This is only Speaker 3 (36:43) you. Speaker 2 (36:44) Where's the other person? And you're like, in the meantime, your back is breaking. You're just like, give... Stop analysing my English and just pick this up. Speaker 1 (36:51) Yeah. But I mean, you know, like, yeah, English is... Speaker 1 (36:59) people break the rules of English all the time, but it's that different forms of error, right? Well, Speaker 2 (37:05) some that are accepted and some that you go, because some of those, it's a similar thing to me when I'm speaking French, when I make my mistakes in French, none of them are acceptable, which is why people look at me strangely and they go, well, where are you from then? Whereas, you know, like if you, if you, if somebody spoke English with a perfect English, you know, let's say South, English accent. Yeah. But then made a grammatical mistake that was accepted as in like, oh, we was at the supermarket earlier on. Okay. In England, no one would bat an eyelid. You'd just go, oh, he didn't, you know, he's from a certain social background. Right. But then there's certain errors. So it's difficult for English learners because then they have to know which ones are accepted. Yes. And know which Speaker 1 (37:49) errors are not accepted. I think there's cultural stuff here. Maybe in France, the culture is that the... Speaker 1 (37:56) language, there are more red lines in French, I feel like, you know, in terms of if you make a mistake, then other people will be judgmental about it being incorrect and stuff like that. Whereas in the UK, you can make a quote error, but people, instead of just thinking, oh, you're speaking wrong, they'll just think, oh, you're just. from a certain community. People make assessment assumptions about your social class or something like that, don't they? We're kind of getting away from the point here and having a talk, getting into a discussion. But irregular verbs, this is one of those areas that not only learners of English struggle with, but native English speakers sometimes have little brain farts on this one as well. The reason I brought this up is because in your question for episode 1000, you did a bit of a rambling three-minute video. And you were saying, thousand episodes, that's quite an achievement. And you were thinking, I don't think I've ever done a thousand of anything. And you said, I may have run. Ran? May have ran? I have run a thousand kilometres and you weren't entirely sure you got it in the end. But you said to me, you said, oh, I think I need you to teach me English, Luke. Here we go. And here Speaker 3 (39:08) we are. Speaker 1 (39:09) This Speaker 3 (39:09) is your fault. Speaker 1 (39:11) Actually, there was a comment, a few comments, one from Nick. I'm paraphrasing. He said, I'm on that comment. On my Speaker 2 (39:19) video? Speaker 1 (39:19) Based on what you said. I'm surprised that Paul was confused by the past participle of run. Maybe next time you see him, you can fulfil his request and show him the table of irregular verbs. Oh, there you go, Nick. Here's Speaker 2 (39:31) the thing. I talked to Addy about this way back when we first got together. The French, probably similar to many non-English natives, learn the three things. Speaker 1 (39:43) What did you call Speaker 2 (39:45) it? Run, ran, run. Yeah. No one in England's ever heard of this table. No. Of the three Speaker 1 (39:50) things. Of course, as an English teacher of 25 plus years, I'm so familiar with the table of irregular verbs. How many irregular Speaker 2 (39:57) verbs are there? In this table? Speaker 1 (40:00) I don't know how many in total. It's not a number that I need to know, really. But, I mean, this... No Speaker 2 (40:04) one's ever asked you that question? How many a regular... No. No one has ever asked me that. That'd be my first question. How many do I need to learn? It's a good question. Speaker 1 (40:11) I mean, I could find out, but it's not a question I've ever had to answer. Speaker 1 (40:18) Hello, listeners. Sorry for the interruption, but I feel like I should actually answer that question, which is how many irregular verbs are there in English? How many do I actually have to learn? It's a good question. And so let me answer it here. Now, the number is a little bit hard to work out because it depends on what you classify as an irregular verb. For example, some of some irregular verbs are archaic or outdated and just obsolete, not used anymore. And then some Speaker 1 (40:48) irregular verbs. Some verbs seem to have both irregular and regular forms, like words like spell, spelled, spelled, or spell, spelt, spelt, learn, learned, learned, and learn, learnt, learnt, burn, burned, burned, burn, burnt, burnt. You see? So, you know, do you include those in the list? Anyway, but it's something like 180 to 200 irregular verbs, which does seem like a lot. And you might think, oh, my God, that's a little bit daunting to have to try and remember all of those things. But actually, you can narrow the number down to the most frequently used ones. Speaker 1 (41:33) And you've got the core group of about 10, which are used every single day, like be, have, do, say, make, go, take, come, see, and get. I don't need to give the past participles of those because I'm sure you know them. I mean, get, it might be worth pointing out that we say get, got, got in British English, but get. got gotten in American English. I say we say get got got. I mean, no one really in any kind of conversation in English is ever saying the sequence of words get got got. No one ever says that, even though that's how you are taught to remember irregular verbs, is to remember them in this weird sequence where those words never actually come in that sequence in normal everyday speech, right? So, I mean, that tells you something about the way that irregular verbs are taught and learned normally in education, that you learn them in this weird abstract way, where maybe arguably the best way to learn irregular verbs is to learn them in context, you know, in grammatical context, in sentences, but also in some sort of meaningful context, which does raise the question, which we will discuss in this episode. I think I've already touched upon it, which is the question of how does the brain actually process? And according to research, in fact, last week's episode touched on this. Apparently, we process in our brains grammar and vocabulary in different ways. And grammar is processed through procedural memory, which is a form of implicit memory. That means memory, a memory process that we don't actively think about or actively do. It just sort of is under the surface and automatic. OK, and so we don't actually when we're speaking English, we don't kind of. have to go to a certain place where we store get, got, got, you know, or spell, spelt, spelt, or something like that. We don't actually actively do that. It's all automatic. It's implicit. It comes from procedural memory. But despite that, we always teach, we often teach or... Irregular verbs are often taught or presented in these lists, and students naturally end up trying to use their declarative memory to actively, explicitly remember lists of irregular verbs. And they're hard to remember, and as a result, it's