From Fear to Faith: Finding Courage in a Divided World w/ Aaron Graham

Listen Then Speak

Host Jamal Marshall interviews Pastor Aaron Graham about his new book, Unshakable Faith, and the complexities of maintaining belief in a pol

Key takeaways

• Aaron Graham wrote his book as an act of obedience to address the 'drifting' of faith among educated populations.
• Unprocessed grief over lost dreams or life transitions often manifests as political or theological anxiety.

Main topics

• Unshakable Faith book launch
• Grief and mental health

Notable quotes

Underneath anxiety... is grief, that we're grieving something.

Conclusion

The episode offers a profound framework for navigating modern social t

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:06) Hey, can you flesh that out for me? Speaker 2 (0:07) Wow. Tell me a little bit more about that. Swimming in Speaker 1 (0:09) shallow waters. Are Speaker 2 (0:11) you serious? Speaker 1 (0:12) Okay, let's go a little deeper. All right. Let's get into it. Speaker 1 (0:22) Hey, welcome to the Listen and Speak podcast, where we get into it, not to break someone down, but to build them up. I am your host, Jamal Marshall, and I am too excited to bring on my guest, Pastor Aaron Graham, who for intended purposes throughout this podcast is going to be known as Aaron. He is the founder, I don't want to say and CEO, and lead pastor of District Church here in D.C., which represents over 80 nations globally. And we're going to get into his bio, what makes him him, and his new book, newest book that is out right now, Unshakable Faith. We're going to shake some things up here today on the podcast. But I got to ask before we really get into it, Aaron, how are you doing that? Speaker 2 (1:06) I'm doing great. It's Friday right now. And I'm just so grateful. I'm so grateful for you and this podcast and just how you're reaching into the hearts and minds of people. And so thanks for having me Speaker 1 (1:20) on today. Speaker 2 (1:20) And Speaker 1 (1:21) thanks for coming on. And I know you, this is not your first rodeo with this. And we're really going to get down into the weeds of unshakable faith. Before we do that, audience who are tuning in, I know. And I'm so grateful that we get over 4,000 unique weekly listeners. Last week, we had 12,000 downloads on a Sunday. Y'all supposed to be in church. Speaker 2 (1:43) Maybe they're doing both. Maybe they're doing both. Speaker 1 (1:45) I'm so grateful for that. But for those, if this is your first time tuning in and you're like, what's an Aaron Graham? What's a Jamal Marshall? What the heck is a listener speak? Welcome home. Make sure you go hit that subscribe button, whether you're on Spotify, Apple. iHeart, Amazon, Stitcher, wherever you are, hit that button so you don't miss us. And if you can, if you get value from this episode or any episodes preceding, leave us a rating and review. That is how we're able to reach thousands and sometimes millions across the globe. But let's go ahead and get into this interview because I really think this is going to provide a lot of value, especially for those who are wondering, how do I manage my headspace, my own mental health, my own wellness? in the midst of so much that is out of my control. So without further ado, opening up, I got to ask the question that I always ask, and my audience holds me accountable when I don't ask this question. So, Pastor Aaron, what is your favorite genre of music? And how does it inform the way you do life both personally and professionally? Speaker 2 (2:42) Yeah. Well, in high school, it was like alternative rock, you know, and it was like all the hits. But, you know, as a... As a pastor now, I don't have to just say this. It's actually who I am. I love live worship. So I just like hearing the voices of not just the leader, but the room. I like, I love live music. I was just hanging out with one of my friends, Kevin, who's in the band Pentatonix, and they have one of the coolest like live performances. I just love live music. So that's what I would say. I love live worship music, but I just love any kind of live music. Speaker 1 (3:22) Wow. I'd co-captive. You just said Pentatonix. One of my former clients years ago in like maybe 2014 turned me on to them. They had a Christmas album came out. I was like, who are these people? Yeah. I got to see their video. I've never seen them live. So now I got to put that on my bucket list to actually make sure I do that because that's a fly band that really knows how to take any song and own it. Speaker 2 (3:45) Own it. Yeah. And they are, you know, their Christmas albums are the best, you know. They always tour every Christmas. And so, yeah, Kevin has his own podcast I was just on. Speaker 1 (3:56) OK, I got to check that out and listen to that podcast. It's got to support other podcasters. All right. Now that we have fun, let's get into the weeds. So I wanted to really get into not, you know, your journey to to becoming a pastor. You know, I know that about you. I do want to introduce you to this audience. But I want to get a little bit of a question of your why, because writing a book like Unshakable Faith, it uncovers a lot of things that are very controversial with and without the guise of faith, because everyone who is in my audience are not people of faith. You know, I have Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, you know, who have their own faith. Speaker 1 (4:41) agnostics, atheists, you name it, the gamut of whatever, and the lung of Christianity. We got Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, everything that listens in here. And I appreciate each one. But when you write in so many different sections in a shakable faith, you're almost saying the quiet part out loud. And so my question to you is, I know for me, the very things that maybe sometimes can irritate me, I find to be an itch that I have to scratch. And maybe this was a one time thing in an instant or over time, something that drove you to this point. What brought you to the place where it says, I need to write about this. I need to put this out there in the atmosphere. Speaker 2 (5:28) Yeah, well, writing a book when you're a pastor in a church and you're married and you've got kids and there's a lot of other things, it's like having the margin to do that. It's not something that's easy to do. But for me, it was like an act of obedience. And so for me to not write this would have been disobedient. And what I had seen was just so many well-meaning, educated, upwardly mobile people who were drifting in their faith. as they got older. And so, you know, a lot of times people will encounter God maybe as a youth or in college, and then like it will influence even, you know, what you want to study and the kind of work you want to go into. But then just the challenges of life, just like maybe move into a new city, making a whole new community, and suddenly like faith kind of goes into the background. And I just saw so many friends, colleagues in ministry who not only drifted from church, not only drifted in their faith, but honestly drifted in their mental health and emotional health as well. And so, you know, I'm the kind of personality, I don't like conflict. I'm like the harmony person. So this book doesn't pull punches. And so it was really hard for me to... actually be comfortable enough in my own skin to say, you know what, like I have to do what's right, not what's easy. And I, you know, have to stand before God one day. And I, and I want to know that I was obedient to what God, the message that God gave me, even if it risk some conflict, which I don't like. So for me, it was just, it was an act of obedience. And so, you know, sometimes, you know, you can't, God put something in your heart. And you can't run from it. And it might not be right in a book, but there's something that is put in our hearts. You know, for you, it was probably starting this podcast and helping support people beyond just one-on-one counseling, but to realize there's patterns that can be manifest in a lot of different people's lives. And so, yeah, that was my journey to Speaker 1 (7:42) writing this. Ooh, yellow light. I want to just slow down right there. One, I want to say I appreciate your vulnerability and honesty because I know you to not be one who likes conflict at all, which is why I had to ask that question. I was like, this book is like a good gut check, though, not wind out of you in a good way. I'm like, that's not his personality at all. And it's really commendable. The act of obedience to God say, in spite of that, I'm going to listen. And you mentioned, you know, one's mental health. When I think about how much fear inspires our decisions and even overall daily patterns, what was it like working through that to say, you know what? This isn't me. This is more risky than, you know, someone who would jump in with fists flying everywhere. But I'm going to do it anyway. What does that look like and how does that catch feet? Because someone listening right now is thinking about whatever that thing is for them. And they're like, I know I need to do this, but I'd rather hedge my bets. Yeah. Speaker 2 (8:44) I think for most of us, it presents itself as fear, but there's usually an underlying emotion from fear. And for me, it's the fear of being alone. It's like, oh, if I share this message and I really talk straight in our cultural moment to what I see is leaving so many people to not just leaving church, but leaving their faith and then not raising their kids in the faith. That if I really say that, then I'm going to encounter resistance and then I'm going to be alone. And, you know, intellectually, you might know that's not true, but you can feel that. And so then you have to battle your own, you know, thoughts when you're trying to sit down and write in your free time at night or early in the morning and just battle those thoughts that like, I'm not good enough. What I have to say is not worth anything. This isn't worth it. And, yeah, you have to push through a lot of that. And that's where I think inviting other people into the journey, a few close friends to be able to support you and help speak truth and be like, no, like this is something that you need to do. Keep going. We need those voices when the other the voices of the enemy begin to get louder in our head. Speaker 1 (10:06) Yellow light. Okay, folks, listen up. Listen to speakers brought to you by Maude. Maude prescribes a once or twice daily modafinil drink that'll keep you energized, focused, and alert throughout the day. Y'all already know, caffeine is going to take you high and it's going to drop you like a hot potato. This is where modafinil works differently. It engages pathways in your brain where dopamine, norepinephrine, and histamine and the other chemicals will have steady energy and alertness for over 10 to 12 hours. We know that we got to run hard at this time because, of course, December is coming. Weather patterns are changing. Daylight's changing. You want to be alert and awake to, man, the postage you've been given. Let me tell you something. I use this product myself. I wouldn't put my name on anything that I myself am not using to stay alert and awake as I build business systems and processes and legacy for my family. Visit mod.com, that's M-O-D.com, for a free consultation and get 10 % off your first order. plus free shipping with the promo code LISTEN. That's the promo code LISTEN. See their website for more important safety information, and we want to thank Ma for sponsoring the Listen and Speak podcast. As usual, grace and peace, y'all. Oh, wow. Speaker 2 (11:20) You said yellow light, and I speed up at yellow lights, but you slow down at yellow lights. Is that what happens for you at yellow lights? Speaker 1 (11:27) Listen, for those who know, who are new here, we're located in Washington, D.C. I have put district government through college with as many tickets as I've gotten over the last summer. So, yes, I've been slowing down at yellow lights, Aaron, just so you know. Good. Speaker 2 (11:41) There's speed cameras all over D.C. In fact, there's one literally in front of my house. And so I'm grateful for that one, for sure. Speaker 1 (11:48) I'm sure you are. I wanted to backtrack to something that you said in your opening question, because, man, I would be remiss if we didn't tackle that. The amount of, I don't want to say youth, but young adults, because that's the hard, that's like the line of demarcation of, am I going to stick with this thing? And, you know, for those who are listening