How to Build an Incredible Life When You're Tied to Your Ex

Law of Attraction Changed My Life

Francesca Amber and Aaron Dale explore the psychological and practical complexities of navigating family dynamics after separation, emphasizing personal

Key takeaways

• Francesca Amber identifies as a 'divorce influencer' and single mother, framing her independent family structure as a source of pride rather than societal stigma.
• Aaron Dale introduces 'emotional contagion,' explaining how parental tension directly impacts children's emotional regulation even when adults attempt to mask conflict.

Main topics

• Co-parenting dynamics
• Single parenthood & societal expectations

Notable quotes

"Your relationship with your child is in your hands. It's not in the other parent's hands."

Conclusion

Listeners gain practical frameworks for separating co-parenting conflict

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Your relationship with your child is in your hands. Speaker 2 (0:02) Yeah. Speaker 1 (0:02) It's not in the other parent's hands. I can't make you look like a bad parent if you're a great parent. I Speaker 2 (0:08) feel like if we were co-parents we'd fucking hate each other. No, I Speaker 1 (0:10) feel like we'd kill it. Speaker 2 (0:11) Okay, I'll take that back. Let's try. But the patriarch is finally working against you. I'm pleased. I hope you can have a little taste of the medicine that we've had for hundreds of years and I hope you enjoy it. He had a girlfriend the whole time. It was fucked up. I had sex with his best friend. It was fucked. Speaker 2 (0:29) What up, bitches? Welcome to Law of Attraction, Change My Life. I'm your host, Francesca Amber, and today I am rejoined, yes, for a second time, potentially third, we'll never know. Neither of us will go back in the archives and check, but it's Aaron Dale. Hello. Hello. Speaker 1 (0:48) From Speaker 2 (0:49) Raising Boys to Men. From Raising Speaker 1 (0:50) Boys to Men. Thank you for having me in this beautifully lit studio. Speaker 2 (0:55) Yeah, you love the lighting in here. The lighting is incredible, Speaker 1 (0:57) yes. Speaker 2 (0:58) Look what good lighting can do. It can do Speaker 1 (1:00) a lot. Speaker 2 (1:00) Great. Anyway, Aaron is a specialist. A specialist? An expert? He loves it. He loves talking about co-parenting. And as a divorce influencer myself, yes, I have influenced a lot of people to leave their dusty old men because... They come up to me and they say, because of you, I got divorced. And I'm like, it is the flex you think it is. I truly believe we are the first generation of women that are able to choose whether we stay or not. And I am proud to be a divorce influencer. But on this podcast, we talk a lot about how much we can control in our own lives. So Speaker 1 (1:41) much I want to already ask. There's so much I'm like, oh, I really want to get into that. But Speaker 2 (1:46) on this podcast, we talk a lot about how. We can make the changes in our lives and we can take control no matter what the shitty situation. And I personally don't know a shittier situation than being tied to someone you do not like for 18 years. And that's where you come in. That's why I'm Speaker 1 (2:03) here. Let's Speaker 2 (2:03) talk about co-parenting. Speaker 1 (2:04) Let's talk about it. Come on. I just want to go back to that divorce thing because I think it's so... It's such a powerful thing, right? And I know in the olden days, it was kind of frowned upon, I guess, to separate. You've had a child together. Because I always say, when you think about co-parenting, do you remember being a kid and looking around thinking, oh, they're co-parenting? Speaker 2 (2:29) You'd Speaker 1 (2:29) just probably think, oh, Daisy's mum and dad are together and David's mum and dad aren't together. The term co-parenting never, to me, existed. So I always looked at it as you was either successfully together. or you just weren't right and now we've got this term which I guess has also encouraged probably more separations because people now know oh if we're not together we're going to be co-parenting whereas years ago if we're not together what are we doing? We've got kids. We have to be together. Speaker 2 (2:58) Yeah. And it was also, how old are you? Speaker 1 (3:00) 41. Speaker 2 (3:01) We're the same age. Speaker 1 (3:02) I'll be 42 in December. Speaker 2 (3:04) I'll be 42 in February. We're twins. So our age, I feel like in my class, there was one girl who had a single mum, one girl out of a class of 30 kids. Everyone else's parents were together, but we did live in Essex, you know, and there was one girl. And I remember. My mum saying, sorry, I always put my mum on blast, but like this woman had two children with two different dads and my mum called her a slag. Well, look who's the slag now. That bit you in the bum, Cass. Full circle. Speaker 1 (3:40) But even back then, did you know of their dynamic because as children you spoke about it or was it more the parents that were speaking about it? Speaker 2 (3:49) I Speaker 1 (3:50) think it's probably the parents. Speaker 2 (3:52) Yeah. Because Speaker 1 (3:53) as kids, we, I didn't really know. I didn't know. I mean, I even went into a school a couple of years back to mentor some young people. And one of the things I said is who here lives with both parents? And there wasn't too many that put their hands up. Really? There wasn't too many, especially the black boys. I noticed they really didn't put their hands up. But by asking that question, the boys then began to look at each other and found the connection they didn't know they had. Right. Because it's not spoken about. Speaker 2 (4:22) Yeah. Speaker 1 (4:23) It's almost, you're almost embarrassed. So it's like, oh, mum and dad not being together. Well, Speaker 2 (4:28) still, in this day and age. Speaker 1 (4:29) I believe so. I was, when I was at my last job, when I first joined my last workplace, which was 10 years ago, in terms of me joining. everyone was being, there was like 11 of us that started together, right? And you're meeting each other and you're kind of like, oh, like married, this, you that. And I remember everyone that had kids was married or with their partners. And I didn't want to say, oh, I'm not with the mothers of my children. So I allowed them to assume that, oh, my partner at the time was my children's mom. Not that I'd said anything. They just kind of said, oh, how's your partner? How are the kids? They'd put it together. I just hadn't corrected them. Men Speaker 2 (5:11) do that a lot. Speaker 1 (5:12) Do we? Speaker 2 (5:13) You say a lot without saying anything at all. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Speaker 1 (5:19) Is that us saying a lot or just assumptions being made? Speaker 2 (5:23) Assumptions not being corrected, I would say. Oh, okay, okay. But that's interesting that you feel like that because I feel like I definitely grew up with the same kind of thing. My mum saying that the one girl in our class that her mum had different children, what a slag. I genuinely do not feel any shame about being, I'm going to stop saying single mother. I'm actually a matriarch of my family. Thank you. A dynasty starter. But I don't. In fact, I feel pride. Like I actually feel like a weird, I think I've taken it too far. I feel pride in it because I'm like, I'm an example of a woman that actually has said, nah, no, it's not for me. And that actually is quite difficult. Because it was difficult for me 10 years ago when I first did it. It was hard. And I think actually being a single mother shows strength. It shows the ability to walk away and choose something that I think it is fucking flex. I do. I really do. Do Speaker 1 (6:17) you feel that in any way? You're a successful woman as well, right? Do you feel in any way that the success has made that easier for you to say? Speaker 2 (6:27) Yes. Speaker 1 (6:28) Yes. I'm Speaker 2 (6:29) a Speaker 1 (6:29) bitch. I'm a boss bitch. You're right. Because without that, would you feel as good? If you was working in Tesco. Speaker 2 (6:38) No, fuck. Yeah, Speaker 1 (6:41) you're right. So then is it really the fact that you left the relationship or a lot more to do with the fact that I became a success so I can almost throw that back in people's face, look at what I've achieved as a single mum? Speaker 2 (6:52) You're completely right. And I'd never thought of it that way. But I do think there's elements of it. No, do you know what? I'm going to take that back, actually. Speaker 1 (7:00) When Speaker 2 (7:00) I first got divorced. Speaker 2 (7:03) I lived on a lovely, oh, it was lovely. It's a little gated community around a marina. I had really good friends there. I loved it. I was near my family. And I moved back to a flat above a pub in Islington, Speaker 1 (7:16) keeping Speaker 2 (7:16) it real. And I still celebrated it. I had a divorce party. I invited my friends around. I had a divorce, like I wasn't ashamed of it. I really wasn't. And I really was going from like a very nice life in the country to my bachelorette pad above a pub. And I did still feel. A pride in it. Yeah, I did. I Speaker 1 (7:36) think that might have a lot to do with the leaving part. Like I've left something that I know wasn't right for me. And then we've got the part where it's like, I'm proud to be a single mum. Speaker 2 (7:46) Yeah. I Speaker 1 (7:47) think those, we can separate those two things. Speaker 2 (7:50) Yes. And I do still feel like I have to prove myself sometimes because I am a single mum. Do you know what I mean? Like I do feel like, especially where I live now, like in a little... fucking reform village like I do feel like I have to over achieve to be do you know what I mean because I am a single mum and because I've got 500 children by 300 different dads you know like that's that's the vibe is I feel like I have to then be like look I can do this I can I can do yeah Speaker 1 (8:20) So almost like you were starting from a deficit. Yeah. And it's more how society views you, right? Speaker 2 (8:27) Yes. Like I remember when I first moved there, I used to be really funny about getting my grass cut all the time because I always thought that if you didn't have your grass cut, it's because you were the single mum. Wow. That's just what single mums do. They don't have their grass Speaker 1 (8:39) cut. You know what I mean? But where did that come from? Speaker 2 (8:42) Because my mum never had a grass cut. Speaker 2 (8:46) I think sorry Cass again my mum fucking hates this podcast I Speaker 1 (8:53) think it's I think that's interesting I think in itself when we often split with the with the other parent I always say we can we can parent from a deficit um and we can parent from guilt so what can often happen is we feel like by separating we've taken something away from our child now so what we often do is overcompensate Speaker 2 (9:12) So Speaker 1 (9:12) we try and let them get away with more things or we give them more or we're almost trying to fill that void with maybe material things. And there was a study or some research that basically said divorced or separated parents, their, I guess, guilt ratio is two times higher than parents that stay together. Wow. So you naturally feel, I don't know, a guilt. I've taken something away from my child. What can I now do to make this better? Speaker 2 (9:38) Yeah. Speaker 1 (9:39) Let me, okay, you can stay up till later. Okay, you know what? You can have your favorite snacks. And it's like, we kind of lose the, we're not meant to be, a good parent isn't giving your child everything they want. It's ensuring they have what they need. Speaker 2 (9:52) And Speaker 1 (9:52) sometimes that means saying no. Speaker 2 (9:54) Yeah. Speaker 1 (9:54) But I often find when people separate, that no becomes less because you feel bad about saying no. Speaker 2 (10:01) And you're like, oh, you haven't seen me for two days and you've been sleeping in a crackdown. Sorry. Speaker 2 (10:09) They've not been sleeping in a crack. Don't take that back. You know, you've been you've had late nights. You've probably eaten like nothing but Haribo and you've not seen me for a few days and you've not had your hair brushed. Like, who am I to say fucking go to bed? Like, you know what? Stay up late. Do what you want. Those vibes. I Speaker 1 (10:26) felt it. Naturally, there's been times when I felt more in competition with my co-parent than in complimenting each other. Speaker 2 (10:33) It Speaker 1 (10:34) was like, no, I want to I want to be better than you. I want to. I want to be the good parent. I want to be the best parent. So you're trying to win the title of being a best parent. And by doing that, you're again, not necessarily being a good parent. Speaker 2 (10:48) How so? Because I do believe I am the best. When we Speaker 1 (10:51) focus on the when we focus on the goal, we can do anything to achieve that. So if all you're focused on is being say, for example, all you're focused on is passing this test. Right. My goal is to pass the test. Speaker 2 (11:03) Yeah. Speaker 1 (11:04) You're not necessarily going to worry about the education needed that you can benefit from by learning everything required to pass the test. You could try to. manipulate the system you could try to copy you could try to cheat whatever because all you're focused on is I need to pass right when you're focused on I need to be the best parent it's well I'm going to give them all the sweets they want I'm going to do this that doesn't necessarily become oh I Speaker 2 (11:27) see yeah Speaker 1 (11:28) you being a healthy parent and Speaker 2 (11:30) I think that is something that dads do more because they get to be the fun one you know like they don't have to deal with all the consequences and and taking him to school and them being up all night or having had sugar or screens or whatever. Like, I would love to be the fucking fun parent. I'd love to be the one that could be like, yeah, let's just do whatever, but I have to be the responsible one. It's a burden I bear. Now... Let's Speaker 1 (11:54) move on. I Speaker 2 (11:57) feel like if we were co-parents, we'd fucking hate each other. No, I feel like we'd kill Speaker 1 (12:00) it. Speaker 2 (12:01) Do you think? I Speaker 1 (12:01) feel Speaker 2 (12:01) like Speaker 1 (12:02) we'd kill it, yeah. Speaker 2 (12:02) Okay, I take that back. I feel like Speaker 1 (12:04) we'd kill it, yeah. Speaker 2 (12:05) Let's try. Speaker 1 (12:07) Did you know that there are apps out there? No. That people can sign up to, to meet, to basically have a child starting from a co-parenting situation. So it's like. Speaker 2 (12:21) I'm here for it. Speaker 1 (12:21) It's like, I want to have a child. Yeah. Speaker 2 (12:24) But Speaker 1 (12:24) I haven't got a partner. And you know what? I just want to find someone that is willing to co-parent with me. So then you meet someone, you have a child together and you become co-parents. Speaker 2 (12:33) Love it. I absolutely love it because you do see a lot of women turning to, you know, like IVF, having it on their own, sperm donation, meeting a guy in a club, Tinder, whatever. And actually you end up co-parenting with a person that is crazy and you've both got different expectations of the relationship or whatever. Actually, how much better to come at it from a fresh start, just being like. these are my parenting values. These are yours. This is how I want to do it. How fucking incredible. How different my life could have been. Speaker 1 (13:06) And if that is your, if you're going into something saying, you know what, I'm, I'm happy. I want a child and I'm happy to co-parent. And like you said, you can match up your values, your morals, your beliefs, and then say, okay, let's do this. Speaker 2 (13:18) That is incredible. Speaker 1 (13:20) I Speaker 2 (13:20) actually, the thing is though, like as much as I say, I love being a single mom and, you know, matriarchy and all we need is women. I am so glad that my daughters have their dads. I'm so glad. Number one, because I get my child free weekends. Number two, let's keep it real. Number two, because I do appreciate the importance of a father's role in their life. Like I cannot be the daddy. Like I can't be as much as I try. I can't be. And so I think, yeah, everyone should fucking go. Do you know what it's called? Speaker 1 (13:52) Don't. There's two. I think one is actually coparent.com or something. Speaker 2 (13:57) Check it out, bitches. Get yourself knocked up. Do you get to have sex with them? If they're hot? I Speaker 1 (14:02) guess that's up to them. Speaker 2 (14:04) I'm checking out the website as soon as I get home. Speaker 1 (14:06) However you want to go about it. But there's apps there that promote that. So, yeah. Speaker 2 (14:11) Okay. I've got a question for you. Okay. That is a mixture of our own self-development and manifesting, creating our own destiny. when we're doing it with someone that we are butting heads against, do you think that changing your own behaviour can genuinely change a co-parenting relationship, even if the other person changes nothing? Of course. Same. Tell Speaker 1 (14:35) me more. Of course, because by changing your own behaviour, you're also changing what you're willing to accept, not accept or engage with. And I think sometimes we can be in this space of battling. So you and I were together and we're just battling, battling, battling. And they say it takes two to tango. If I say I'm no longer going to engage in this, right? I've already changed the dynamic. Speaker 2 (14:59) Yeah. Speaker 1 (14:59) I've now made my life more peaceful. You can still be as bent up and annoyed and frustrated as possible. But I have now taken something away from both of us, which is the opportunity for us to engage in negative conversation. And by doing that. I'm changing my environment because I'm no longer having to be affected by that energy. Speaker 2 (15:20) Yeah. Speaker 1 (15:21) Energy will wear you down. Your children will pick up on it. And I think that's the biggest thing, right? There's something called emotional contagion. I think I've said it right. Emotional contagion is basically the understanding that emotions can be picked up. So if. Speaker 1 (15:40) you're like a bubbly, like a room full of joy, right? A room full of joy. She's a room full of joy. So being in this room with someone so happy and joyful, that comes onto me. I leave here feeling energised. I'm like, oh my gosh, if you had your face screwed up, if you'd had a bad day, you might not have to say anything to me, but your emotions, now I leave this room feeling that. I'm carrying that with me just because that's your energy. So I think that's something called emotional contagion and that gets passed on to our kids. Speaker 2 (16:14) That's funny you say that because I've recently had to do quite a few things with my ex-husband because we're looking at secondary schools for my daughter and like some are in London, some are in the countryside. So we're like having to do fucking day trips at this point. Speaker 1 (16:28) And Speaker 2 (16:29) what's so interesting is, and I can fake it with the best of them, right? I can be like, hello. How are you? Like I can, I'm not, you know, but my daughter's silent when we're together. She's really subdued and she's like an outspoken girl. She says what she thinks. She's been on this podcast. She fucking says what she thinks. And she's really quiet when we're both there. Why? Why is that? Is that because I'm underneath? I'm like, my energy is tense. Because Speaker 1 (16:56) you're, yeah, you're faking it. I mean, that, I don't know. It just, the thought I had is. you can look at a cake or some food and be like, oh, it looks nice. But then you dig into it and you realise, oh, no, this isn't cooked. This isn't cooked at all. No one's eating this. I don't know why. Speaker 2 (17:14) Sometimes when you talk, I just laugh. But yeah, I know what you mean, yeah. So Speaker 1 (17:20) for me, it's especially when your children know you well. Speaker 2 (17:23) Yeah. So Speaker 1 (17:24) there may be just a slight change of tone in your voice where it's, oh, that's mum's sarcasm. Mum doesn't really mean it. Mum doesn't really mean Speaker 2 (17:32) it. She's Speaker 1 (17:32) talking a load of shit. Mum's voice doesn't go that high normally. So they can pick up on things that we don't realise they pick up on. And that's why I always say we can't always fool our children just because, oh, you know what, but we don't argue around the kids or we don't slag each other off in front of the kids. It doesn't mean your children are clueless to what's really going on. Speaker 2 (17:55) Interesting. I think children as well share your auric field until the age of seven. So she's only just 10. So that's not that, you know, far away. But isn't that wild? I don't know what that fucking means now I've said it, but I remember reading it. I was Speaker 1 (18:09) waiting for that to be filled in. I was like, there's a gap there, fill it in. Speaker 2 (18:12) I'll leave it to your imagination. Okay, so going back to how we can manage our own energy and how we can live our best lives and manifest our lives exactly how we want when we've got this tie, how do you stop? that person from hijacking your... Speaker 2 (18:34) emotional regulation. Like how do you stop either what they say to you, one text, one email? Because I know that there was a point in my co-parenting career, my career, years ago when the twins were babies where one message would literally give me like heart palpitations, like I was going to be shot, which is mad, isn't it? Like a little message can have that effect, but it did constantly. I've moved past that now, but how can we stop it from hijacking our lives? I Speaker 1 (19:07) feel there's the... reactive answer and there's the proactive answer I feel it's like with boundaries right I say in the book I mentioned you've got reactive boundaries and Speaker 2 (19:17) proactive Speaker 1 (19:18) reactive is you know we keep arguing every night I'm just sick of it don't call me no more I'm now putting a boundary in place because of something that's happened and because of what's happened I'm now already impacted by it but from the start of a co-parenting relationship or early doors or when things are great if you're able to put some boundaries in place then coming from the space of We're putting these things in place because it helps us co-parent more effectively. Speaker 2 (19:42) What, when you're not arguing? When you're not arguing. What Speaker 1 (19:45) a Speaker 2 (19:45) good idea. Speaker 1 (19:46) Why are we waiting for the argument? Why have we never done this? Imagine if, like, for example, the people on the app, Speaker 2 (19:51) right? They Speaker 1 (19:52) meet. They're going to have some rules and agreements, early doors that says, you know what? This is how we're best work together. We don't have that in co-parenting. What we often do is we try and freestyle based on, oh, well, it's okay right now. I don't hate her. She doesn't hate me. you know what things are okay introduce a new partner someone's the villain now things start to change someone becomes more successful i start to become envious and i want to start controlling the situation so i think having some um proactive boundaries in place rather than waiting for an incident to occur like Speaker 2 (20:25) what because i'm just thinking like one of my exes he'll expect like an immediate response or he'll say something to me. And I think I might be autistic because if you say something to me, I'll never remember. I'll never, I need it like in writing probably three times. Like I wonder if, would it be something like that? Like, could I say to him while we're not arguing, number one, you can't expect an immediate response from me. I'm not a 24 hour hotline. If you send me a message, I reserve the right to think about it and take 24 hours to respond. Or does that sound like a dick? I don't know. And also the second thing, if you say something to me in passing in a riddle, because he does speak in riddles, you can't expect me to remember that. Like, is that what you mean? That kind of stuff? Speaker 1 (21:06) I think, yeah. And it's being mindful that I'm not telling you. A boundary isn't telling someone else what they're to do. It's saying what you're going to do. Speaker 2 (21:14) Right. Yeah. So Speaker 1 (21:16) a boundary isn't, right, you know what? Stop calling me after 10 o'clock. A boundary is. Just so you know, I'm not going to answer the phone if you call that telephone. Speaker 2 (21:24) Yes.