No Dogs in Space: New York Dolls Pt I

Last Podcast On The Left

Carolina and Marcus return with the first episode of 'No Dogs in Space' season, launching Punk 2.0 with a deep dive into the New York Dolls'

Key takeaways

• The New York Dolls embodied punk's DIY ethos by fusing rock energy with flamboyant fashion and gender-bending performance.

Main topics

• Origins of the New York Dolls
• Punk 2.0 and cultural legacy

Notable quotes

They were a band who distilled the music and the attitude down to its very essence during not only their performances and their records, but also in the way they lived every hour of their lives.

Conclusion

The New York Dolls pioneered a revolutionary fusion of style, sound, a

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:31) Part of me thinks we could just fucking start. You Speaker 3 (0:34) know what? Part of me thinks we could just start too and just be like, God damn it. Hey, we're back. Speaker 2 (0:39) Yeah. Why don't we talk about being back? Because this is our first episode back. Speaker 3 (0:42) Yes, it is. Speaker 2 (0:42) Okay. So why don't we talk about being back? Because this is our first episode back. Speaker 3 (0:47) Yeah, let's do that. Let's talk about this being our first episode back. Our first episode in a year or something like that. Speaker 2 (0:54) So much has happened. Has it? Yeah. Well, I mean, not. To us. I mean, like other people, I'm sure, the world, current events. But yes, and we are back. And we are doing, of course, what we always want to do, which is punk. Speaker 3 (1:09) Punk 2.0, ladies and gentlemen. We're fucking here. My name is Marcus Parks. This is No Dogs in Space. We are here for Punk 2.0. We're starting it off with a band that people have asked us to do oh so many times. We've told the story in bits and pieces here and there, but we're finally going to tell it in a massive four-part series. starting today. That's Speaker 2 (1:29) right. I'm Carolina Hidalgo. Some call me Carolina Danger Hidalgo. Certain doctor's offices know me as that. And I am also here with you today to talk about this. We are telling the story in four parts. And that is it. That is all I'm contractually obligated to do or that I want to do. There's a Speaker 3 (1:49) possibility we might have a point five here. Speaker 2 (1:51) We might. Speaker 3 (1:52) There's a possibility. It might be a replacement type of situation because this story, the more I look into it, this story just crosses with so many other amazing movements in New York City that were happening in the early 70s. There is so much meat to this story. There's a lot of meat on this bone. All right. So Speaker 2 (2:13) let's Speaker 3 (2:13) start chewing. I Speaker 2 (2:14) was about to say, like, let's do it now. Let's go now. Yeah. Speaker 3 (2:16) Now, one can make the argument that this band was the greatest rock and roll group to ever exist. Not the best, definitely not the most talented, but the greatest. Yes. They were a band who distilled the music and the attitude down to its very essence during not only their performances and their records, but also in the way they lived every hour of their lives, for better or worse. Created by five kids from each of the outer boroughs, that's Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, and the Bronx, all four are represented, this band rode the wave of chaos created by the decay of early 70s Manhattan. They absorbed and translated the city's dirt, sleaze, crime, trash, and utter insanity, as well as its art and culture. into pure rock and roll. This band's body of work was a collage born of intuition and good taste, which combined the sonic screams of first-generation rock and roll guitarists like Bo Diddley and Eddie Cochran with the confidence and attitude of the 1960s girl pop groups. I Speaker 2 (3:19) love how you put that together. Speaker 3 (3:21) That's what this band is. And then finally, they just sprinkled the whole mixture with a dash of British glam. Oh, Speaker 2 (3:28) yes, definitely. Speaker 3 (3:29) But even though their taste was impeccable, their actual talent was not on the same level. They were the archetype of the punk band that didn't give a fuck about precision. Hell, half the time their instruments weren't even in tune. You kids don't know how lucky you are with these electric guitar tuners. But that wasn't even close to the point. For this group, it was their energy and passion that inspired countless others in first New York City and then the world to thank... If these assholes can do it, what the fuck am I waiting for? Speaker 2 (4:01) That's right. If those assholes could do it, anybody could do it. Speaker 3 (4:05) Yeah. These five New Yorkers had actually tapped into a vitality that they themselves couldn't keep up with. And as such, it's been said by the old New York scene-sters that this group peaked before they even signed a record contract. Speaker 2 (4:18) Oh, my God. That is so hipster. That is so New York. I loved them before they started a band. Speaker 3 (4:26) You should have seen them in elementary school. They were awesome. Yeah, they were cool Speaker 2 (4:31) then. Speaker 3 (4:31) Well, amongst that scene, though, this band started a revolution without even trying. It was expression as infection. It was DIY at its most fabulous. Because if you know nothing about this band, their fashion sense was sickening, fierce, dusted. New York was gagged, mama. Speaker 2 (4:47) Yes, I loved it. I loved it all. Speaker 3 (4:49) Yeah, and we're going to be getting deep into the drag scene in New York City starting next week. But these five men dressed as women or at least dressed highly femme. I Speaker 2 (4:59) would say highly femme. Speaker 3 (5:00) Highly femme. They did that because it was their instinct to do so. And by doing that, they personified the idea that in New York City, you can be whatever the fuck you want. And if you hit the same sweet spot these boys hit, you can have more fun than you ever thought possible. Now, while the band was indeed straight, they dressed, acted, and presented themselves to the world in a way that was far more drag than glam, at least in our opinion. But that's not to say that effeminate edge or drag elements were new in rock and roll. People forget that some of the earliest rock stars were extremely flamboyant. There's a good reason why in an episode of RuPaul's Drag Race, the drag queen Kennedy Davenport was able to surprise everyone by doing an excellent and filthy drag interpretation of the famously filthy Little Richard. I Speaker 2 (5:49) loved it so much, I can't even do it justice. It's Speaker 3 (5:51) one of the best Statch Game performances ever. But where the British Glam Boys at the time were foppish poppin' J's, this band... Speaker 2 (5:58) Excuse me, Frasier? What? I'm sorry, Niles? Foppish poppin' J's? Yeah, I would describe the British Glam... Are Speaker 1 (6:07) you Speaker 2 (6:07) David Bowie's father? Speaker 1 (6:16) But Speaker 3 (6:16) while the British boys were, I stand by it, foppish poppin' J's, this band, as one author put it, they took the glam out of glam rock and they made it seedier and far more threatening. To me, that means they made it more American. And I think this band really does represent what America's supposed to be in more ways than one. For example, two of the founding members of this band were first generation immigrants from Egypt and Colombia. And in my opinion, one of the things that makes America special is natural born shitheads collaborating with wild, imaginative immigrants to create something revolutionary. Speaker 2 (6:51) Definitely. I mean, look at us. Speaker 3 (6:55) Look at us, Speaker 2 (6:56) shithead and imaginative. Speaker 3 (6:59) OK, yeah, I guess I did kind of walk into being called a shithead there. But as it often goes here in America, the people who represent its purest ideals with the most intensity are the same people who get pushback from the cowards who are deathly afraid of what freedom actually means. And this band was certainly a victim of this paradox. See, while we look at the cover of this band's groundbreaking debut album where the whole band is dressed in maximum drag and think, fuck yeah, I want to hear that record, these musicians... could have been arrested for female impersonation in 1973 if that photo shoot had been done in the wrong state. And furthermore, the music contained in this record was certainly rock and roll, but it was also campy and it was also feminine. All this put together coded this band's debut as gay to a lot of radio DJs who were also probably a little freaked out by their own sexual reaction to the luscious lips of lead singer David Johansson. Speaker 2 (7:57) That's right. In our own generation, we had a similar thing. Not dressed in drag, but a lot of people thought the members of Hanson were girls. Speaker 2 (8:08) And there was a bit of confusion there as well. That Speaker 3 (8:11) there was, but it did nothing to stop Mbop from being played every 10 minutes on the radio. We came a long way. Speaker 2 (8:18) We have come a long way. Mbop, really? Speaker 3 (8:22) And, you know, sometimes it does feel like we're a million miles away from that sort of bullshit. Radio DJs freaking out over guys wearing makeup and dresses in a photo shoot is a far cry from where we are today. Where the most popular show on MTV by far is an actual drag competition that's in, what, season 17? At Speaker 2 (8:43) least. And it's all over the world, too. UK, Australia. I mean, we've seen them all. Speaker 3 (8:47) Yeah, we had 11 seasons of All Stars. Speaker 3 (8:52) tedious. Speaker 1 (8:52) It's gotten very tedious, but it's massive. Speaker 3 (8:55) It's huge. But as we all know, there are plenty of assholes today who want to bring the days of old back. These are people who either don't know the meaning of the kind of reckless abandon our band today represented, or they understand its power completely, and it scares them to their cowardly core. See, as one member of this band put it, Every generation finds something intriguing about this band, and I think that's certainly true. So maybe in order to move into the future, we need to look into the past. And I think that every single one of us can find something inspiring about the total freedom, the aggressive rebellion, and the utter chaos that was the New York Dolls. Speaker 2 (10:31) You can hear all the chaos and Speaker 3 (10:33) the fun. Yeah, so much fucking fun. That's what this band was all about. So much fun. Produced by Todd Rundgren. It's such a good album. Speaker 2 (10:41) I know. Todd was part of the fun. Speaker 3 (10:43) Yeah, we're forced to talk about Todd Rundgren again. Against our will. I Speaker 2 (10:48) think he's fine. I have no problem with him. Well, let me read more about him. Anyway, let's but first, let's get started on our sources. Right. Our main book sources are, first of all, Too Much Too Soon, The Makeup Breakup of the New York Dolls by Nina Antonia, as well as There's No Bones in Ice Cream, Sylvain Sylvain's Story of the New York Dolls by Sylvain Sylvain. Dave Thompson. Speaker 3 (11:11) There's No Bones in Ice Cream is one of the best rock bios that I've read in years. Love it. It's so good. Speaker 2 (11:17) And also, we also used Johnny Thunder's In Cold Blood, the official biography by Nina Antonia again. And then there was Trash. The Complete New York Dolls by Chris Needs and Dick Porter. We use that for extra details. All of these books have different accounts of what's basically the same kind of story. And I have to say, I've worked really hard and done my best to read all of these books and check out plenty of interviews and articles online and make some hard and some not so hard. editorial decisions on who's telling the truth. So we're going to do the best we can here. And I will give the complete list of sources at the end of this series, as well as we're going to post it on our Instagram, NoDogsPop. Speaker 3 (11:55) Yeah, I would say... Not since the Stooges have we had to make so many judgments on what is true and what is probably true. Totally. And what might be true. We Speaker 2 (12:07) spent a whole afternoon talking about if Johnny Thunders lied about one thing. That's an afternoon. You're wondering why it took us so long to get here. Speaker 3 (12:18) What's the thing that Iggy Pop and Johnny Thunders share that makes the truth so difficult? We'll find out. Speaker 2 (12:26) It's heroin, Marcus. Okay, so let's get started with the story of the New York Dolls from New York. And except, well, actually, we're going to start with Sylvain. Sylvain, the guitarist and co-founder of the New York Dolls, who actually isn't originally from New York. Nope. Sylvain was born Sylvain Mizrahi on Valentine's Day, 1951 in Cairo, Egypt. Yeah, he's Egyptian by birth, but his mother was of Syrian descent and his father's family were from Turkey. But they all spoke French. I'm not sure why, but according to Sylvain, that was the primary language for many Jewish Middle Eastern people at that time. Speaker 1 (13:05) And Speaker 2 (13:06) Sylvain, he spent his childhood in Cairo in a very upper class, I would say downright wealthy. family. Nice penthouse apartment with a car and chauffeur, the works, everything. But Sylvain wasn't like, he wasn't a fancy kid. He wasn't a Richie Rich. All he cared about at that time as a young boy was going to the movies and watching Western American singing cowboy movies. We couldn't get him away from that. Like movies starring Roy Rogers, which apparently he was an actual singing Cowboy. Yeah. For real. Speaker 3 (13:40) Yeah, we drive through the Roy Rogers Memorial Interchange every day between the office and home. I Speaker 2 (13:45) forget that I hold my breath and pray a minute every time we do that. So anyway, so Sylvain, he loved watching the singing cowboys sit on their horses while playing their guitar and I guess fixing fences. Yeah. And that's Speaker 3 (13:59) all cowboyness. Trust me. Speaker 2 (14:01) I've never seen a singing cowboy movie. Well, actually, no. The Three Amigos. Yes. I mean, that's more Mexican-American-Canadian singing cowboy movie. But, you know, she'll be coming around the mountain when she comes. That's Randy Newman. Okay. That's a singing Bush movie. But still. Okay. Back to Sylvain. Back to Sylvain. Pretty soon after a few cowboy movies, Sylvain is like. At this point, he's dying for a guitar, right? He's a little kid. He wants to play like his hero, Roy Rogers. And after lots of begging and insisting and being really annoying about it, Sylvain's father finally gets him an oud. Speaker 3 (14:39) An oud? Yes, Speaker 2 (14:40) not a guitar. Speaker 3 (14:41) An Speaker 2 (14:41) oud. And Sylvain's dad is like a wealthy banker. It's not like he couldn't afford it. But hey, in Egypt, you get an oud. Speaker 3 (14:49) Yeah, yeah. You want a thing with strings that makes noise, you get an oud. Speaker 2 (14:52) Yes, it's an Arabic type of guitar. It's totally not a guitar, but it's what Sylvain has got to work with, basically, which is cool. But then, unfortunately, in 1956, Sylvain's singing cowboy dreams kind of washed away when an international conflict changed the course of five-year-old Sylvain's life forever. And that conflict was the Suez Canal. crisis. It affected a lot of people. Speaker 3 (15:23) So many singing cowboy dreams were swept away by the Suez Canal crisis. That's why Speaker 2 (15:27) there's a singing cowboy shortage to this day. Speaker 3 (15:31) The Suez Canal crisis. It's extremely complicated. But basically, the Egyptian dictator Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal in 1956, which took ownership of the canal away from French and British interests. The French and British, therefore, planned military action to retake the canal and possibly depose Nasser in the process. This is when Israel got involved in the operation because Nasser had been behind anti-Israeli blockades and raids. And Israel had every reason to want Nasser deposed. Israel led the attack against Egypt in 1956. But when the operation got bogged down, the coalition withdrew from Egypt after just a few months. With the coalition's withdrawal, Nasser could claim victory against the colonial powers. That's Speaker 2 (16:15) true. He won a political war. Massive. They loved him for it. Speaker 3 (16:21) Massive, massive, massive political win for him. And this led to a massive increase in both Egyptian nationalism and because Israel was involved. anti-Semitism all across Egypt. And since Sill's dad was working at a bank that used the British pound, this is how granular it all got, neither of these things were good news for the Mizrahi's family's future in Egypt. Speaker 2 (16:43) Yeah, Sylvain's dad lost his job when the bank he was working at for 25 years was nationalized. So Sylvain's family, as well as other Jewish families and communities, they couldn't go out shopping or walking down the streets without being harassed or being called nasty names. Like you said, Marcus, like nationalism was taking over. It felt that dangerous to not be born and bred. Egyptian at that time or not be Jewish for that matter. And Sylvain and his family were Jewish. I mean, his grandfather was a rabbi. Yeah, Speaker 3 (17:13) that's Speaker 2 (17:13) that's pretty Jewish. Speaker 3 (17:14) It's as Jewish as you get. Speaker 2 (17:15) Absolutely. So soon the money was running out. So Sylvain's parents, you know, they were very smart about this. They started making clothes in their living room. to make ends meet. And these people were rich, at least until very recently they were rich. But they were also very hardworking. So Sylvain's parents took out some books on sewing and started making shirts and pants on their dining room table. Their fancy rooms in their fancy apartment became like a workroom to make and sell clothes to just get by. Money was scarce, but then when food started becoming scarce, Sylvain's family decided it was time to leave Egypt for good. So after months of writing, letters to every foreign embassy they could think of, they finally got one response from France. Speaker 3 (17:59) Yeah, because they could speak French. Speaker 2 (18:00) Yeah, that's, well, that actually did help. Yes. And by Sylvain's eighth birthday, he and his family had settled in a small apartment on, I'm sorry about this, Rue Cadet. In Paris. Rue Cadet. Yeah, exactly. It spells cadet, Speaker 1 (18:15) but Speaker 2 (18:16) it's Rue Cadet. So within like what, a little over a year, they went from living in a penthouse luxury apartment in Cairo to a single room hotel with nothing but a bucket to wash in. The toilet was down the hall. Jesus. It was one of those. And there were four of them. Yeah. And then. They had a baby. There were five of them at some point. Jeez. Yes. Three kids, two adults. And Speaker 3 (18:39) this is all definitely germane to the New York Dolls story. Oh, absolutely. Speaker 2 (18:43) Because Sylvain, in his autobiography, he does say he remembers Rue Cade as a crowded, smelly, rat-infested, gross-ass street. But there was the folie berger. Right? Speaker 3 (18:58) Folie berger. Speaker 2 (19:00) Yes. Berger! The Folies Berger. That's right. Little Sylvain lived right around the corner of Paris' most famous cabaret hall. Well, I think the second most famous because the Moulin Rouge. That's number one. That's number one. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. I've seen the movie and we all know this. So anyway, the Folies Berger was a sight to behold. Berger! It was. It was a sight to behold. I mean. Sylvain never went inside because he was eight, nine years old, right? But he would stand at the door, like the side door where the truck would like pull up and unload dozens of costumes, feathers, sequins, and the most beautiful sentence. It was the first time Sylvain had ever been exposed to glitz and glamour. This is art. This is expression. This is... Full of sequins. My Speaker 1 (19:48) God. Very Speaker 2 (19:49) shiny fabrics. Speaker 1 (19:50) Of Speaker 2 (19:51) course a child would love this. Yeah. Hell, I would love Speaker 1 (19:53) this. I would too. And Speaker 2 (19:54) this is important because Sylvain said that when the New York Dolls were first starting, that was exactly what Syl was thinking of. The feathers and sequins in the folie berger. Speaker 1 (20:05) I said Speaker 2 (20:07) so confidently. Sylvain was mesmerized by the shiny fabrics and glitter. I mean, who is it? But he ended up never going to the Folies-Bergé because by the time he was like 10, 11 years old, Sylvain and his family left Paris for a better opportunity in America. Yes, finally, Sylvain and his family touched down in New York City in 1962, and he immediately fell in love with it. Sylvain loved all of it. feel and smell of the streets, the energy, the gunpowder volatility of it all. It was raw and a bit gross, sure. But New York City had character. And Sylvain even said, for the first time since I'd left Cairo, Egypt, I felt like I belonged somewhere. Speaker 1 (20:52) Because Speaker 2 (20:53) that's what it's supposed to be here. The feeling that wherever you come from, you belong. That's New York. That's America. Speaker 3 (21:02) Yeah. Not only can you belong, but... You can do anything. Absolutely. Anything is possible. Now, when the Sylvain family finally landed in the Outer Boroughs, Syl quickly discovered the reason why so many members of the future punk scene who survived the chaos of Manhattan in the 70s, he discovered why those guys were from the Outer Boroughs, why they were from Brooklyn and Queens. See, before his family settled in Queens, Syl first lived in Brooklyn, where violence and actual fistfights were a normal part of life. For both genders. Sill said he actually knew a girl who hid razor blades in her beehive to slice up the hands of any girl who tried grabbing a fistful of hair during the scuffle. Speaker 2 (21:43) That's actually kind of smart. Speaker 3 (21:45) It's incredibly smart, but it's also wildly violent. Speaker 2 (21:48) Yeah, that was in the Silence of the Lambs, you know, the sequel in the beginning of the movie with Julianne Moore. Really? Yeah, yeah. They're like, oh, watch out if you... touched her head because it wasn't in the 1960s though. It was a sequel that was poorly made. Speaker 3 (22:03) Yes, it was. Except for the end when he ate Ray Liotta's brain. Speaker 2 (22:05) That was actually very cool. It's worth a whole movie. I wish that was the whole... Yeah, I was about to say that. Oh Speaker 1 (22:10) my God, we have everything in common. Speaker 3 (22:12) Yeah. Now, Syl certainly had to deal with a fair amount of xenophobia and racism in Brooklyn and Queens. Trust me. Queens ain't the paradise that everyone thinks it is. But he found refuge in the incredible music that permeated the boroughs throughout the early 60s. Syl partly absorbed this music through the jukebox at the bowling alley across the street from his school. The songs that he heard on that jukebox would make up the musical DNA of not just Syl Sylvain, but every New York doll. And while each of them would discover these songs in their own way, it was the bowling alley where Syl fell in love. with the girl groups of the early 60s. Cannot be overstated how important these fantastic groups are to the New York Dolls, and to punk in general. Now, in my opinion, the way that every member of the Dolls idolized these girl groups from a young age probably made them a lot more comfortable exploring their feminine sides later on. But even though their later penchant for women's clothing would make people assume they were gay, the band dressed the way they did mostly because the girls they liked responded to it positively. And their love for girl groups ran on much