"Words Matter" (w/ Matt + Bowen)

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang dive into a wide-ranging culture catch-up, starting with Taylor Swift's latest musical era and the massive fan-driven hype surrounding

Key takeaways

• Matt Rogers argues that Taylor Swift's recent album exists primarily to justify a music video she was excited about, noting the imbalance between fan expectations and the actual musical delivery.
• Bowen Yang analyzes the Western Massachusetts lesbian bar controversy, concluding that while safe spaces are vital, a financially struggling bar cannot function as one without sustainable logistics.

Main topics

• Taylor Swift's new music era and fan culture
• The Last Ditch lesbian bar controversy and community discourse

Notable quotes

"Words matter. Words matter. And that's actually title of it."

Conclusion

The episode offers a sharp, media-literate breakdown of how modern fandom

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:00) This is an iHeart Podcast. Speaker 5 (0:02) Guaranteed human. I'm Carrie Champion, and in this new season of Biggest Rivalries of All Time podcast, we take you back to the very first rivalry of the WNBA. The Comets were the real deal. I mean, come Speaker 6 (0:16) on. Speaker 1 (0:16) The Liberty was just tough. Oh, God. Speaker 5 (0:19) The New York Liberty versus the Houston Comets. When we hit Speaker 7 (0:22) the floor, it was hot, heated fights, elbows, competition, trash talking. Speaker 5 (0:27) Who Speaker 1 (0:28) is the better team? People lie, but numbers don't. Listen to Biggest Speaker 5 (0:32) Rivalries of All Time on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get Speaker 7 (0:37) your podcasts. Speaker 7 (0:41) Every case has a story. Every victim has a voice. But will it be heard? I'm Nancy Grace. On Crime Stories, we go beyond headlines to examine evidence, challenge the story we're fed, and pursue justice for victims and their families. Please join us at Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you find your podcasts. Hope you join us. I'll see you there, friend. Speaker 1 (1:12) In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author Petra Mathers and her husband Michael mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let them know they had died by suicide. Dear honeys, this is goodbye. By the time you get this letter, both Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? Listen to Death of an Artist on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 2 (1:43) Hey everybody, it's me Matt and my tour is on sale now. This time it's really Christmas. You can go to www.mattrogersofficial.com. Podcasts are a visual medium. If you're not watching me right now, I am holding in my hands my vinyl. It's called Have You Heard of Christmas? The answer to that question is coming. At this time, it's really Christmas. I'm playing all over the country and in London and in Canada. That makes it a world tour. Harry Styles, you're on burn notice. I'll see you soon. Speaker 8 (2:17) Oh, I see. Bowen, look over there. Wow, is that culture? Yes. Las Culturistas! Speaker 8 (2:26) Ding dong, Las Culturistas calling. Whoa, multitasking. Look at that. He can pour and pod. Baby, send me back to the restaurants. What was your craziest sort of like, whoa, a moment? On a restaurant? Yeah, at a restaurant. I've Speaker 2 (2:40) never, on a restaurant. Well, I was on top of a restaurant and I fell off. You silly. Rule of culture. Don't get on top of a building. I don't think so, honey. I don't think so, honey, when I broke my ass falling off the top of a restaurant. I never told you about my one crazy fucking insane moment Speaker 8 (2:57) that happened. Well, I feel like there's so many. Speaker 3 (3:00) Is this was this a crab or I mean, what I what I had to reminisce about recently was the beginning of Uber. When you screamed at me. Not screamed. Yes, you did. I can't tolerate this. You screamed at me drunk at midnight. From Red Hook said, get me an Uber. No, no, Speaker 2 (3:18) no. Speaker 3 (3:18) So Speaker 2 (3:19) what happened was. I was in Speaker 3 (3:20) my apartment going to bed, getting ready for the week. You had finished a shift at Brooklyn Crab. You did not know how to use your phone. You did not know how to download Uber. I Speaker 8 (3:27) didn't have Speaker 3 (3:27) the Speaker 8 (3:27) Uber Speaker 3 (3:27) app downloaded. Which you could have done yourself. Speaker 8 (3:30) I didn't have to be. Well, Uber's problematic. So who really won in the Speaker 1 (3:34) end? Speaker 8 (3:34) When was the last time you used Uber, my friend? Speaker 2 (3:38) Melissa used Uber today to get Speaker 8 (3:39) us here, not me. Melissa's problematic. Speaker 3 (3:42) Blaming Speaker 8 (3:42) the Speaker 3 (3:42) assistant. Speaker 2 (3:43) Your card. Fuck. Speaker 3 (3:44) Your card. Wait, so what was your big whoopsie? I Speaker 2 (3:47) was literally, I think, 17 years old. I was still busing tables at Nicky's on the Bay. And I love that you remember my restaurants. Speaker 3 (3:58) Don't we all know the Matt Rogers lore in this room? Oh my gosh. Speaker 3 (4:04) Name my first workplace. Anyone? You don't say. I could. Speaker 3 (4:11) Maggie Moose. Well, the ice cream the Maggie will do for now. Speaker 2 (4:15) The ice cream the Maggie? It's Maggie Moose. It's Speaker 8 (4:19) an Speaker 2 (4:19) institution. Maggie Moose Creamery. You were not allowed to sing and make tips despite the fact that that would have been an amazing use of your talents. But they could never have known that you are the superstar that you are. Speaker 8 (4:29) I wink. You were 17 at Nicky's on the Bay bus. I Speaker 3 (4:33) was Speaker 2 (4:33) 17 at Nicky's on the Bay. What often happens? Speaker 2 (4:37) is, you know, when you're working in the summer, like you're working in an outdoor restaurant, sometimes it rains. The restaurant was tented. There was outdoor seats and it was tented. Love that. What happened was the precipitation all kind of built up sometimes on the top of the tent. So what they would have the bus kids do is they would have us take a broom and like poke the top of the tent so that the water would come off so that it didn't build on top. But guess Speaker 3 (5:01) where the water would go? Like it would start. Speaker 2 (5:03) So what happened was I was not doing this correctly. It took me a while to be good at restaurants. But I was poking the top to get the water off the side and the water sort of like cascaded down the tent and absolutely covered three women in their 60s or 70s. And I had just dropped their Chardonnays off at the table. And the waitress goes to me, you know, old ladies, all they drink is Chardonnay. And I go, ha ha ha, I'm thinking I'm in with this waitress where I talk and shit about the customers. Then they're doused and the waitress was like, I am so sorry, he's new. And it's not been the first thing with him. I'll never forget that she said, it's not been the first Speaker 8 (5:45) thing with him. Holy shit, I don't think you've ever told me this story. They were drenched. That's so scary. They were patient zero. Speaker 2 (5:53) They Speaker 8 (5:54) were patient zero. Speaker 8 (5:58) They were patient zero of me working in restaurants. But then ever since Speaker 3 (6:02) you've gone on to have a really illustrious career in service. I Speaker 2 (6:05) turned them into pathetic ghosts. And I think what my waitress, whose name was Jess, I remember her. I think what she was saying was I one time had cleared a plate too early, like someone was still eating. Speaker 8 (6:20) And the Speaker 2 (6:21) second thing was she had gone to the bathroom. And the table was like, where's our waitress? And I go, I think she went to the bathroom. And then she got back on the floor. Is that not okay to say? Okay, so then she yelled at me. Okay. Because it wasn't the first thing with me. Right. She goes, I'll never forget. She snapped. She goes, if I leave the floor and I use the restroom, you never tell that to a customer. That's disgusting. You say I stepped out. Speaker 2 (6:50) So from then on, I always say she stepped out. She stepped Speaker 8 (6:55) out. Well, I say that about you when you go to the restroom to do whatever it is that you do in there. I think you're always pretty transparent. I don't Speaker 3 (7:02) mind. I have nothing to hide. No, Speaker 2 (7:03) you're a very vile, fecal person. You Speaker 3 (7:06) vile, fecal woman. Speaker 2 (7:07) You Speaker 3 (7:07) vile, fecal woman. That's my favorite piece of writing that Matt Rogers likes. Speaker 2 (7:13) I wrote that into Speaker 3 (7:15) dialogue for Night Soap. If you know, you know. His Speaker 2 (7:17) character said to me, you vile fecal woman. Speaker 3 (7:20) After your character bragged about eating my son's ass. Speaker 2 (7:26) Bring back Night Speaker 8 (7:27) Soap! Honestly, it's the number one item on the Culture Catch-Up this week. We have to bring back Night Soap. I mean, no, I love that Night Soap has, I love the sort of exclusive. Speaker 3 (7:41) You love Speaker 2 (7:42) the unproduced lore of it. The Speaker 3 (7:44) ephemerality of Night Soap. Really? That it's not somewhere permanent or recorded. Oh, that's so antithetical to the modern culture of capture. Oh, big time. You know what I mean? Capitalism? Sure. Speaker 3 (7:59) You should read, have you gotten this book yet? The book that I told you you get? Speaker 2 (8:02) No, because I've been, but tell it, the story Speaker 8 (8:04) of your life. Speaker 3 (8:05) The story of your life, Catherine Desert Morton. It's phenomenal. Speaker 8 (8:07) Sounds Speaker 2 (8:07) like a good Christmas gift for me. Speaker 8 (8:09) No, Matt, you need to read it now because, you need to read it now because it will like help you. Sounds like an amazing early Christmas Speaker 2 (8:17) gift for me. Oh my God. Speaking of culture and the story of- Yes, tell. You know it's serious when I bring the playbill. When Speaker 3 (8:24) you Speaker 2 (8:24) bring Speaker 3 (8:25) the playbill. You Speaker 2 (8:25) guys, I have- To say, this was one of the most special things I've seen. And obviously, you know, there's an item on your, you already have homework, and that's to see Bo and Yang and Bo Mary, of course. No, Speaker 3 (8:37) no, Speaker 2 (8:37) no. But because it's so difficult to get a ticket to that, and it's actually going until, and we can announce, January 16th. January 17th? I don't even know. January 16th, 17th. It just got extended from the 16th to the 17th. Yay! That means you're spectacular. Speaker 2 (8:56) This is Schoolgirls or the African Mean Girls play. I went to the premiere last night. Much hyped. And it is for a reason. Yes. So this actually has been produced many times. It was off-Broadway. Jocelyn Biot. I actually worked with her husband, Austin Smith, on a project this year, and we spent a lot of time together, became friends. Speaker 3 (9:16) A Speaker 2 (9:16) project. Very furtive. Well, I'm a very furtive person. Very furtive. And it's not been the first thing with me. Speaker 8 (9:23) It's not been the first. That's crazy. Okay. Sorry. Keep talking about this. Speaker 2 (9:28) This is so I he is like obsessed with his wife and she's this incredible. Love Speaker 3 (9:33) that. Speaker 2 (9:33) Love a man who's obsessed with his wife. We're Speaker 3 (9:36) going to Speaker 2 (9:36) talk Speaker 3 (9:36) about another man who's obsessed with his wife. Shockingly, but keep going. Speaker 2 (9:39) Okay. So I was so he had been saying you should come to this premiere. And I was like down because it's directed by Whitney White, who did Liberation and it stars. Among others, Patina Miller, who we love. We fucking love Patina. Fucking love. Icon in this. And Danae Benton, who is spectacular in this. Yes, Speaker 8 (10:00) yes. Speaker 2 (10:00) And I've been a fan of her since Unreal. Speaker 8 (10:02) Uh-huh. Do you watch the Gilded Age? I Speaker 3 (10:05) don't watch the Gilded Age, which doesn't make me a real Broadway person. You Speaker 2 (10:08) actually have to. I Speaker 3 (10:10) know. If you're anyone on Broadway, you're watching or in the Gilded Age. How Speaker 2 (10:14) do we get you in the Gilded Age? Speaker 3 (10:15) I don't want to be in it. Well, they weren't Asian people back then. Hey! Speaker 2 (10:19) I don't like that attitude. Well, not with that attitude. There's not going Speaker 8 (10:22) to Speaker 2 (10:22) be Asian people back then. Speaker 8 (10:23) Yeah, you're right. Speaker 2 (10:24) Okay, so. And also, Jasmine Amy Rogers. Jasmine! Who, let's speak it into existence. She's also going to be Maria in Sound of Music next year. Big year. She needs to be on the pod. Speaker 3 (10:36) Jasmine, Amy Rogers needs to be on Lost Culture. We Speaker 2 (10:38) gotta. Speaker 3 (10:38) Culture Award nominee winner. Culture Speaker 2 (10:40) Award. I think repeat Culture Award fixture. Speaker 3 (10:42) Repeat Speaker 2 (10:42) Culture Award fixture. Speaker 3 (10:43) Absolutely. Speaker 2 (10:44) This is, it was so funny. It was so heartbreaking. It was so illuminating. I love all those words. It's about, it essentially maps onto Mean Girls, but it takes place in an all-girls school in Ghana. And Jasmine plays an American girl who transfers into the school amidst them all. needing to compete in the Miss Ghana pageant. Speaker 3 (11:04) Love it. Love this. Speaker 2 (11:05) Basically, Danae Benton plays like the Regina George of the school. She is unbelievably cruel, but you find out the layers to her character. It's an incredibly layered piece. It was amazing. You looked around and everyone was just the same kind of spellbound by it. Melissa and I went last night. We were so blown away. I love it. So, schoolgirls or the African Mean Girls play, it's top of your list. It has to be. Just to Speaker 3 (11:31) say, Patina has been on my mind a lot lately. Talk about Patina. Well, I'm just like, if I'm tired, that's crazy. Doing Broadway, that's crazy. And this is not me. This is not another moment of Bowen Yang complains that he's tired. No, it's Speaker 8 (11:47) Bowen Speaker 2 (11:47) Yang states that he's tired. States that he's Speaker 3 (11:49) tired. I think about Patina Miller getting up at what, like 5 a.m. every day to run a marathon, essentially, before every show. It's like, come on, you can't. Speaker 2 (11:56) Patina is so fun in this. And by the way, to say nothing of... I believe her name is Queen Jean. Oh, yes. Tony Ware. Queen Jean, who did the costumes for Cats, Speaker 8 (12:08) for Speaker 2 (12:08) Jellicle Ball, does these costumes. The costumes are spectacular. The set design is amazing. The direction, it's obviously, it's Whitney White, so she's amazing. You Speaker 3 (12:17) want to be another poll quote on the awning, don't you? I Speaker 2 (12:20) don't Speaker 3 (12:22) think Speaker 2 (12:22) I'm the person to have the poll quote here, but I would say I am happy to provide as many exclamatory positive comments quotes as I possibly can. Well, Speaker 3 (12:32) you Speaker 2 (12:32) never steered Speaker 3 (12:33) anyone wrong in theater. Speaker 2 (12:34) I'm trying to think if I, you know what? You know I try to be honest about it because it's so fucking expensive. Of course. Like, it's not like Life of a Showgirl, The Encore, which I'm going to totally lie about my opinion about. You know what I mean? Because that's free. Okay, can we just get it out of the way? So, here's two things I have about The Life of a Showgirl encore. I Speaker 3 (12:58) want to tie Life of a Showgirl encore to the last... Episode Speaker 2 (13:04) of Survivor? Speaker 3 (13:05) No, no, no, not the last episode of Survivor. To Last Ditch, to the Western Massachusetts Lesbian Bar. Speaker 2 (13:09) And that's why you tune into Lost Couch. Because I'm going to tie both of them to the first episode of Survivor. Survivor? Speaker 3 (13:15) Oh my god, okay. So then if Life of a Showgirl, the encore is The Hinge, then should we start with Survivor or Last Ditch? Let's start with Speaker 2 (13:22) Last Ditch. Talk to me. Speaker 3 (13:23) So... I think most people have read this by now. Speaker 2 (13:27) Boston Globe's article about the lesbian bar, The Last Ditch, outside of Northampton in Western Mass. One of the Speaker 3 (13:34) few remaining lesbian bars in the country relaxed its KN95 mask. Speaker 3 (13:43) mandates for one day causing much consternation and uproar in the community. Lots of angles to the story, lots of reactions to the story. Oh yeah. Speaker 3 (13:55) What I will say, and I think it's the same thing that you really fucking zeroed in on, which I'm still thinking about, which I think ties into the way, I'll just quickly mention the last line of. The Speaker 2 (14:05) last line. Speaker 3 (14:06) This piece is so, so interesting to Speaker 2 (14:10) me. Speaker 3 (14:10) Haunting. Haunting to me. Just it documents all of these really difficult conversations and things that have happened circumstantially to all people involved in the situation. And I think it kind of opens it up to the reader into like what we're experiencing now in the culture. Someone says that's the price you pay for community. Speaker 2 (14:30) Yeah, that's the price you pay to be in community. To Speaker 3 (14:33) be in community. Even more active. Thank you for including the verb. To be an R. Words matter. Words matter. Speaker 3 (14:44) Let's just put that out there. And then once we talk about Life of a Showgirl, the encore, I will sort of bring those together. What do you want to say about it? Speaker 2 (14:52) My feelings about Life of the Showgirl, the encore. The Life of a Showgirl. Life of and Words Matter. And Words Matter. And that's actually title of it. It's Speaker 8 (15:00) a Speaker 2 (15:00) front runner for title of it, Words Matter. Okay. Do I think it is as bad as everyone is saying? No. I do think there is TSDS. Taylor Swift derangement syndrome. Okay. I believe it is crazy the effect she has on people. However, I will say this. I think that Patient Zero is the reason why the whole thing exists because I think she got excited about the idea of the music video. I think she created in her head what the music video was, got so excited, and then to justify it, made the encore, made the four songs because it feels like... It's operating Speaker 3 (15:39) outside of whatever TS-13 will be. Speaker 2 (15:41) Correct. And I thought that she was really cooking for a while there. Like I thought, I knew it, I knew ya. You know, she did that great conversation at the Grammy Museum. It looked like she was really kind of gunning. I think she's gunning for finally a song of the year win at the Grammys with I Knew It, I Knew Ya. I don't know if she'll get that, but it felt like that was the goal. I think she got so psyched about the Patient Zero music video, which I do think makes the song better. I think the video is kind of cool. I love Dakota Johnson. I think Colin Farrell is hot as fuck in it. And I like the video. I have some notes, but I think that's the reason why the project exists. That bridge is crazy. Speaker 8 (16:20) And Speaker 2 (16:21) I like the song, but the bridge is kind of, I just need her to stop doing that thing she does in the bridge. Like I kind of want, I want. It's Speaker 8 (16:30) a little Speaker 2 (16:30) Meredith Marks. I mean, it's kind of, when she goes into Meredith Marks on her bridges, she loses me a bit. Speaker 3 (16:37) And you didn't stand up for me at all. At all? Speaker 2 (16:40) That sounds like a Taylor Swift bridge. Speaker 3 (16:41) It's like a Taylor Swift bridge. I Speaker 2 (16:43) also think that Patience, this song is about Ellen DeGeneres. This Speaker 3 (16:47) song is about Ellen DeGeneres. Oh, like I was patient zero. She was patient zero with Ellen DeGeneres. And Dakota Speaker 2 (16:54) Johnson. Speaker 3 (16:55) Well, Dakota ended her, was patient infinity. Exactly. I Speaker 2 (16:59) think Dakota texted Taylor and was like, I'm getting booked on the Ellen DeGeneres show. Speaker 8 (17:03) Wait, Speaker 3 (17:03) you're actually. Speaker 8 (17:04) Cooking. So tea-full right now. If you Speaker 2 (17:07) look at the tombstone, it says 1986 to 2022. Are you serious? 1986 is when Ellen DeGeneres' career popped off. 2022 is when Dakota Johnson ended Ellen DeGeneres with four words. That's not true, Ellen. Speaker 3 (17:25) You were invited. Speaker 3 (17:28) You were Speaker 2 (17:29) invited. Ask anyone. Speaker 3 (17:31) Ask anyone here. Speaker 2 (17:32) I think Taylor was Speaker 8 (17:35) so terrorized by Ellen for so many years. Rightfully traumatized. Exactly. And this is a Speaker 2 (17:42) piece about trauma. Speaker 8 (17:43) Yes. Speaker 2 (17:44) Someone was turned into a pathetic ghost. Speaker 3 (17:47) You love when Taylor Swift uses the word ghost in her lyrics. Have Speaker 2 (17:51) you noticed that she's obsessed with ghosts and obsessed with heiresses? It is always about someone's fortune being at risk. Wait, Eris? What's that word? At the end of patient zero. Eris. H-E-I-R-E-S Speaker 8 (18:06) -S. Oh, Speaker 2 (18:06) Eris. I Speaker 3 (18:06) was like, my girl hasn't been playing Final Fantasy VII. Sorry. I thought you were talking about Eris Gainsborough. No, but Speaker 2 (18:13) I would love for her to be inspired by something like that. You Speaker 3 (18:16) got it. It's so crazy that you don't know Final Fantasy VII or Kingdom Hearts because it's Eris Gainsborough. Now they've changed it to Eris. But as I've told you many times before. Mandy Moore, Mina Savari. I know, I know. Okay, keep going. Speaker 2 (18:27) Hayden Panettiere. Speaker 3 (18:28) No, no, Hayden was Kyrie. Well, that's what I was about to say. No, you weren't. Speaker 2 (18:32) Anyways, because words matter, I'm going to say I'm sorry for that mistake. But did you know that it's always Speaker 8 (18:39) about an heiress? Well, yeah, because lately she's been writing about like, oh, the will and things like this. Yeah, Speaker 3 (18:45) it's Speaker 8 (18:45) like, Speaker 2 (18:45) it's the will. It's like she's an heiress who mysteriously dies. It's like, oh, yeah, last great American dynasty. It's always about someone's like great fortune. Yeah. Speaker 3 (18:54) And Speaker 2 (18:54) you know how much I love a great fortune. Speaker 3 (18:55) You love the word fortune. I love fortune. You love the Speaker 8 (18:58) word Speaker 3 (18:58) fortune the way Taylor likes the word ghost. And that's a rule of culture. That's rule of culture number 70. Five. Matt Rogers loves the word fortune as much as Taylor Speaker 8 (19:07) Swift loves the word ghost. Ghost. Ghost. At all. You didn't stick up for Speaker 3 (19:13) me at all. Okay, so anything else about Patient Zero? Speaker 2 (19:16) Can I say, yeah, Cleveland, I don't think it's all as bad as everyone is saying. I do think it's kind of... I think it's funny the way that people get. Well, however, I don't think this is going to be, I was willing to say with Midnight's and Tortured Poets, we're going to revisit this era later and they're going to be some of her stronger eras. I don't think that about this era. Speaker 3 (19:38) So this is what I think about, those are all great. This is how I want to tie together Life of a Struggle, the encore with the Western Mass. Yes. Last Stitch. Yes. Story. Speaker 3 (19:50) Community is something that we have to pay for. Fandom is something that we have to... Speaker 3 (20:00) that can be bought. But I think the price on that, I'm trying to sound profound, but this is just my, this is my assessment of it, is that I think Taylor is as engaged, as excited in the Easter egg process as she is the songwriting process now. But there's an imbalance happening where All of the hype that gets built up, even over the course of just one week of her announcing Patient Zero and the tracks. Even in that time period, there was so much... excitement and hype and, you know, we'll say like hysteria. It could not have possibly lived up to that in the songs. Speaker 2 (20:44) No, because everyone did what they do when they're in a real, everyone did what they do in parasocial relationships or in relationships where they're not in communication with the person of their desire, which is they create everything in advance. And that is an extremely tough thing when she, when she, Well, she's kind of set this up, right? Because she'll say, this is what's happening, and then it will be so much more. So people have come to, in a Pavlovian sense, expect more. They've been conditioned for her to over-deliver. And so now that she simply delivered what she said, it can never live up to the castles that people