EP. 206 - The TV Industry Is Sinking. So What Comes Next? | Philip Ralph

Just Get A Real Job

Jamie and Philip Ralph reflect on their recent experiences at the Edinburgh TV Festival, discussing the systemic decline of the UK televisio

Key takeaways

The 'Titanic' metaphor: The speakers argue the industry has already hit the iceberg, with those in 'first class' ignoring the sinking ship.
Freelancer instability: Over 50% of freelancers face long periods without work, a situation that disproportionately affects marginalized groups.
Class barriers: While access is often discussed, there is a critical lack of focus on retention and pathways for working-class talent.
The need for low-budget drama: A shift toward more affordable, lower-risk production models could revitalize the industry and provide more opportunities.
AI impact: AI is already displacing research roles and presents significant ethical concerns regarding the use of creative works without compensation.

Main topics

UK TV Industry Crisis
Freelancer Precarity
Class and Privilege in Media

Notable quotes

The disruption has happened... the iceberg's behind us and we're sinking.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a sobering critique of an industry in decline, u

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Hello and thank you for tuning in to another episode of Just Get A Real Job. This episode is brought to you this week by the wonderful Coffee Cabinet, which is a cafe in Edinburgh on Broughton Street who have kindly let us record in their cafe today. I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined in real life for the first time by Philip Ralph. Fourth time on the show. Thank you so much for coming back on. That's Speaker 2 (0:20) my pleasure. Third year running, right? Speaker 1 (0:22) Yeah, so this is going to be coming out in September. We're recording. We've been at the TV Festival a week, so we've got lots to say. But it's been nice because I've never met you in real life until this week, so it's really nice to finally meet you Speaker 2 (0:33) and do our Speaker 1 (0:34) yearly sort Speaker 2 (0:35) of what the hell's going on in this TV industry. Speaker 1 (0:39) I'm sure we've both got lots to say. I haven't been there. Yes. The TV Festival class was one of the big themes this year. I know we've both got some frustrations with some of the things we've maybe seen. I don't know what you mean, James. Everything's perfect. Everything's... We're all working. It's Speaker 2 (0:55) all Speaker 1 (0:55) going really well for everybody. It's perfectly represented. Speaker 2 (0:58) Yes, yes, yes. Speaker 1 (1:00) Firstly, though, how are you since we last had you on? I know you've been doing some work as well. I know you've had a few. TV episodes out and things. Yeah, Speaker 2 (1:08) I was thinking actually about where I was last time we spoke and I think one of the things that I was talking about to you then that I couldn't tell you what it was, was the thing that came out in May on Channel 5, Under Suspicion Kate McCann, which was a docudrama a verbatim docudrama about Kate McCann and her story and yeah, so that came out in May, but you know I mean I haven't actually worked for pay since December, I guess. So we're Speaker 1 (1:39) getting around for nearly a year now. Obviously, we've talked about this a lot because I got married on the 8th, bro, and I've had the odd bit of work. Again, it's like four or five months. The time just goes so fast. And that's the norm at the moment for so many people in the industry. And again, we talked about this. When you first ever came on the show, people think you've been working because the show came out in May on TV. People go, right. oh, he's just worked on that. That's not how it works, is it? You wrote that last year. No, Speaker 2 (2:06) and also peculiarly, when something like that comes out, I had to do a lot of press around it, interviews, and I was on LBC and things like that. So that feels like work, but then your bank balance doesn't think it is. So, yeah, it's a very strange thing. And as you say, a lot of the work that we do, by the time it's out, we're out of work. Speaker 1 (2:29) and have been for a Speaker 2 (2:30) while. So it's a complex thing, yeah. Speaker 1 (2:31) Yeah, it's a strange one. Well, I know Speaker 2 (2:32) we're Speaker 1 (2:33) both probably very tired because we've been going to sessions all week, but I'll be completely honest, I'm a bit of a wreck today. Speaker 2 (2:39) I think, Jamie, I think you're probably more tired than me. Speaker 1 (2:42) But Speaker 2 (2:42) look, you know, you're 20 years younger than me, I'm assuming, so therefore you can take it. Yeah, I can take it. I was getting early nights, I was looking after myself, I was eating fruit, you know, I was doing all the things. I've been pushing Speaker 1 (2:51) the bullet on both ends. I've been doing the Visionaries programme this week, which has been a really, really interesting scheme and some amazing people. really nice to I think when you sort of go into the world of work it's very rare that you meet people from all over the country so it's like people from every part of the UK yeah and that's actually really nice because you get different perspectives and but the most interesting thing was that the industry is the same everywhere really sure apart from maybe London yeah like everyone's feeling this like yeah change Speaker 2 (3:19) Not to interview you, but do you want to say a little bit about what Visionaries is? I'm sure you've heard it a lot this week. You've heard the soundbites about what it's for and what its aims are. Speaker 1 (3:29) What I like about it is we've also in the past talked a lot about how a lot of the issues in TV is because there's not investment in mid-level stuff. I mean, we both went to an amazing lecture, we'll get into this properly, but about class. And for so long, a lot of the conversation around class is always about access. what people start in their jobs not about retention and there's no pathways for people at the moment so to have a scheme that's sort of more focused on mid-level people that are in the middle it's quite good but it's still just a scheme that's not paid so it's only a part of the solution. And Speaker 2 (4:04) you've got sort of pitching opportunities, they put you in Speaker 1 (4:06) front of people. Yeah, so we get networking, we get coaching, we have to mentor somebody who's just starting out in the industry for a year as well so I'm really excited to share what I've learned. Have you Speaker 2 (4:18) met your mentee yet? Yeah, I Speaker 1 (4:19) met them this week so it was really nice to meet somebody who's just starting out and obviously... try to use this podcast platform and the new podcast screen check as like a platform for that as well but it's nice to like either be able to pass on what i've learned but also be honest because it does feel weird mentoring something going well i'm not working right Speaker 2 (4:36) right Speaker 1 (4:37) so it's that balance of like i need to give them optimism but also not lie to them be realistic which i think is what our episodes of the podcast are always like as well i hope so yeah striking that that balance um but no it's a great scheme and in fairness the tv foundation they do a lot of good stuff like this like i think one of their main strengths is the various schemes they do like a new writer collective they do the network they do visionaries and they do the phd scheme those things are great and i did notice that there was a lot more alumni that had been given free passes this year so they are really trying on the class thing yeah yeah it's Speaker 2 (5:09) important to say you know i i'm only here because i got a bursary from the tv foundation to be here we're joined by a fly yeah special guest there's going to be a feature in this episode there's going to be uh joining us yeah so i'm only here because i got that bursary from the tv foundation because you know it was a it was one about um people from working class background yeah Speaker 1 (5:30) you know and so i there's no way i could have afforded it i think two of the main things are really focused on the moment is climate and class which is good um but yeah it's a strange week because we've obviously there's a lot of industry there speaking feels the festivals always can feel a bit corporate as well yeah and should Speaker 2 (5:47) we say a little bit about um for anybody who's listening or watching who who doesn't know what the tv festival is can we should we sort of try and embrace it Speaker 1 (5:55) yeah it's 51 years now yeah Speaker 2 (5:57) and this year was the last year it's been in edinburgh for 50 years and this was the last year that it's in edinburgh it's moving next year to manchester um it's kind of it's the indus the tv the uk tv industry's kind of annual I don't know what you'd call it really, junket, you know, where everybody, supposedly everybody gets together and they talk about the state of the industry. They talk about all the channels. We'll put up teams on panels where they will talk about the year they've had. Speaker 1 (6:27) What they want to make. What Speaker 2 (6:28) they want to make, what they're looking for. So there's lots of indies in the room. I think, I don't know what your sense is, but I think that because of how expensive it is, both to attend, to get a pass to attend the festival, but also, of course, one of the issues and I think one of the reasons why there was a push to take the festival somewhere other than Edinburgh in August was just the punitive costs of trying to be in this town in August. So I think the balance of people who are there felt like, I don't know, maybe 20 % of freelancers. That might be a bit high. Speaker 1 (7:05) I also was thinking, because I knew we were going Speaker 2 (7:07) to Speaker 1 (7:07) have this conversation today. I think I only heard the word freelancer used like two or three times at the festival. Same, absolutely. Which again, I think sums up a big problem with our industry. Yes, I'm Speaker 2 (7:14) going to be throwing the table over and shouting about that in about five minutes. But yes, barely any mention of freelancers. And I spoke to a lot of people, a lot of freelancers. I don't network because I can't bear it. But I did go to a couple of things and talk to a few people. And that real sense of almost like you're, as a freelancer at something like this, try as the festival might, you feel like an outsider. Completely. Because you're not part of an indie and no matter what anybody says, particularly for writers, but I think if you're pitching reality formats or unscripted formats, you go via an indie. You team up with an indie and the indie is what pitches it to the channel. So I think from a freelancer perspective, it's a really tough space to be in. And we talk Speaker 1 (8:01) about talent a lot. the word talent is always used at these events and talent's important but to me talent isn't just the people on screen it's people behind the camera as well and I think we need to really try as an industry to make sure that we're including all them in these conversations and it doesn't always feel like that when you're watching these sessions I know they have to keep it optimistic sometimes but it sometimes can be strange when you're watching a session and it feels so detached from the reality of the situation you're in yourself yeah Speaker 2 (8:29) yeah but I think it's you know for my money it's not necessarily just spin it's not necessarily just kind of optimism but it's spin you know so so um the um like for example the the the bbc session it felt like watching a downing street press conference to me Speaker 1 (8:47) you Speaker 2 (8:48) know of the people who run the bbc and you know the questions weren't particularly tough They weren't particularly driving, you know, the BBC's under enormous pressure at the moment in all sorts of ways, huge cuts to their budgets in terms of what they're producing. But, you know, you wouldn't have known that from the session. You know, whenever that came up, there was always, yes, it's very challenging, but we're still the major commissioner. And all of that is true. But I think if you're a freelancer watching that, as I am, I just kind of went, this feels like Cloud Cuckoo land. And I think that's something... um knowing that i was speaking to you i always try and think about what what what can i say and particularly after this week i think one of the really interesting things about uh the tv festival this year and about being in the situation that the industry is in right now is it sort of felt to me and i'd be interested to know what your experience was but it really felt like um i felt like split personality being there do you know what i mean because because there's that side of it the kind of the shiny and the corporate and the idents and all this the flashy videos that we saw in front of every panel you know this is the fantastic year that we've had And then you sort of lift the lid and go into a room full of freelancers and people are terrified, angry, upset. And you're quite right. I heard the word freelancer maybe three times over the course of the week, maybe a little bit more in the class session. And when it did come up, some of the things that I thought were said about the situation for freelancers, and lest we forget, the stats are terrible. You know, sort of 50 % plus freelancers are without work and have been for a long time. Lots of people leaving the industry. Speaker 1 (10:39) I think there was a recent stat that was like 70 % of people not in regular work or not working as regularly as they Speaker 2 (10:46) used to. Yeah, yeah. And left or considering leaving the industry. And so it's a really, really... tough situation for an awful lot of people and that is disproportionately hitting people from working class backgrounds from uh from uh you know marginalized groups from more diverse groups they are the ones who are taking that hit so it's it's really it's like Jekyll and Hyde it's like you go in those rooms and you think well everything's fine apparently yeah Speaker 1 (11:13) you Speaker 2 (11:13) know and then then coming out of those rooms Speaker 1 (11:14) go it really isn't it really isn't yeah yeah I know it's crazy it's crazy because I first had you on this podcast two years ago. The whole episode was about the crisis in our industry. It was the whole Survive to 25 time. We did an episode in 2025 called Survive to 25 with an amazing panel I put together. Speaker 2 (11:31) You Speaker 1 (11:32) were part of. 2026, August 2026. It's got worse. And you said this. You said this isn't like a short-term blip. This is it. The industry has changed. Speaker 2 (11:47) We've Speaker 1 (11:47) had the... I think that's one of the... One thing I did like in the McTaggart was, I've forgotten the guy from YouTube's name actually did it, but he said that this isn't the build-up to the disruption, the disruption has happened. Speaker 2 (11:59) We're in this new world now, things have changed. But it's interesting, isn't it, about how you view that. So before coming up here, I'm a bit quieter on social media these days than I have been, just waiting for something that I feel might be of value to say. but coming up here I kind of I rolled out my Titanic metaphor right Speaker 1 (12:22) which Speaker 2 (12:22) is which you could argue is lazy but actually I think it's really apposite in this in this instance because you know the disruption as Speaker 1 (12:31) was as was mentioned Speaker 2 (12:32) in Speaker 1 (12:32) the and I haven't seen that I didn't go to the McTaggart I Speaker 2 (12:35) look Speaker 1 (12:35) forward to hearing your thoughts in a few weeks about the McTaggart okay Speaker 2 (12:40) Yeah, I was particularly struck when we were in the class session by Jimmy Morville, who's the MD of Hat Trick. Hilarious Speaker 1 (12:46) man. Speaker 2 (12:46) Very, very funny. Who said, he almost had me. He almost had me. He almost convinced me. They summed it up Speaker 1 (12:51) perfectly. Speaker 2 (12:52) When I watched it, because I want to sort of talk about this honestly, when I watched it, I was like, I Speaker 1 (12:57) kind of see where he's coming from. I mean, this podcast is on YouTube right now. There's lots of great things happening on YouTube. It's not TV though. No, it's not TV. Speaker 2 (13:04) Very Speaker 1 (13:04) different. Speaker 2 (13:05) Although they would all go. I woke up the Speaker 1 (13:06) next morning. having not had a lot of sleep and probably too much strength to be honest but i woke up the next morning and i thought i've had been gas a little bit right Speaker 2 (13:13) actually Speaker 1 (13:14) there was something i thought i'm not sure there's a few things i was i just i don't know i felt and i know and it's an intro i've heard a lot of people at the festival saying that yeah a lot so it's a common response to the yeah Speaker 2 (13:24) yeah yeah yeah i Speaker 1 (13:26) mean Speaker 2 (13:26) so you know the metaphor that i use is the this the disruption has happened i.e you know If the UK TV industry is the Titanic, it's already hit the iceberg, right? The iceberg's behind us and we're sinking. And so the experience of being at the TV festival, for me, who spent a lot of my time in the freezing cold water trying not to drown, trying not to become Leonardo DiCaprio at the end of the film, was rather like sort of clambering back on the boat and going up to first class and wandering around in first class going, does anybody else even know the ship's sinking? Right? That's what it feels like. I Speaker 1 (14:05) don't think that is lazy. I think that's a perfect summary. Speaker 2 (14:07) That's what it feels like. You just go, there's a kind of a, you know, and James Cameron's film, which I'm using as my image, is not accurate. But that sense of people in first class on the Titanic, you know, it took two and a half hours for it to go down after it hit the iceberg. And they didn't want to get in the lifeboats. They didn't want to put life jackets on. They were like, well, Speaker 1 (14:25) why would I? This Speaker 2 (14:25) ship isn't going to sink. And the spin that we had over the last few days. was absolutely that this ship is not going to sink but the reality is there's already a lot of people in the water drowning there's a few people who are in lifeboats you know they maybe got a gig that is just about keeping them afloat there's a lot of people under the waterline who are absolutely panicking and about to you know about to drown so i think it's um it was it much of it was spin much of it was really tone deaf I think, in terms of, and there was one particular panel, and I'm not going to name the name, but there was one particular panel where the freelance situation was brought up. And when one of the panelists was sort of faced with what about all the freelancers who are out of work? His, because it was, his answer was, well, when we get the public service broadcasters back into growth, there'll be more work. And I kind of went, well, that's basically, we always end up talking about economics, right?