Ep. 18 – A Door to the Immeasurable

J. Krishnamurti: The Freedom From the Known

In this concluding dialogue of an 18-part series, J. Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson explore the profound relationship between medita

Key takeaways

Krishnamurti asserts that 'the controller is the controlled,' meaning any attempt to use will to control the self only reinforces the cycle of control.
The distinction between the field of knowledge (necessary for practical life) and meditation (freedom from thought) is vital to avoid mental confusion.
Direction, will, and control are fundamentally linked to the concept of time; without them, the movement of life becomes spontaneous.
True silence is not merely an interval between noises but a state where energy is gathered rather than dissipated through conflict or desire.
The division between inner and outer worlds is identified as a symptom of thought-driven fragmentation.

Main topics

The futility of control
Knowledge vs. Perception
The nature of silence and space

Notable quotes

The controller is the controlled.

Conclusion

The episode provides a transformative perspective on how relinquishing

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:07) Welcome to the Krishnamurti Channel on the Be Here Now Network. You're listening to A Wholly Different Way of Living, a series of profound discussions between Professor Alan W. Anderson, Emeritus Professor of Religious Studies at San Diego State University, and Jay Krishnamurti. These conversations took place at San Diego State University in 1974. At a time of unprecedented outer change in the political and social spheres, is there a fundamental inner change that is demanded of each one of us? In these 18 dialogues, Krishnamurti suggests that relying on organized religion, science, political ideologies, or the market economy not only falls short in addressing fundamental human issues, but ultimately contributes to their creation. According to Krishnamurti, the way to transcend our challenges must begin with the individual mind. through awareness of our personal perceptions of life, self, and others. During these discussions, Professor Anderson refers to many passages from both Western and Eastern religious texts, which he says align with Krishnamurti's teachings but are often misunderstood. This episode is titled Meditation, Part 2. I hope you enjoy it. Speaker 2 (1:31) This is the 18th dialogue between J. Krishnamurti and Ellen W. Anderson in San Diego, California, 1974. Speaker 4 (1:46) Mr. Krishnamurti, we were discussing in our conversation last time meditation. And just as we concluded, you brought up the very beautiful analogy from the flowering of a plant. Speaker 4 (2:03) It struck me that the order that is intrinsic to the movement of the plant as it flowers is a revelatory image of order that you have been discussing. And we were talking also about the relation of meditation to understanding on the one hand and knowledge on the other, a distinction that's very, very rarely made. So in ordinary language, we... we make the distinction, perhaps unwittingly. It's there. Speaker 3 (2:36) We Speaker 4 (2:37) have the two words. But then to go into what the distinction is was something you were beginning to do, and perhaps we could... We Speaker 3 (2:45) can go on. Speaker 4 (2:46) Yes. Speaker 3 (2:48) So we were talking, if I remember rightly, about control. Yes. And we said the controller is the controlled. And we went into that sufficiently. And when... When there is control, there is direction. Direction implies will. Control implies will, and in the desire to control, there is established a goal and a direction. Which means to carry out the decision made by will, and the carrying out is the duration of time. Speaker 3 (3:48) Yes. And therefore direction means time, control, will, and Speaker 4 (3:58) an end. Speaker 3 (4:00) All that's implied in the word control, isn't it? So what place has will in meditation and therefore in life? Yes, Speaker 4 (4:20) yes, yes. Speaker 3 (4:21) Or it has no place at all. That means there is no place for decision at all. Speaker 3 (4:32) Only seeing, doing. And that doesn't demand will. No direction. When... You follow? Speaker 4 (4:45) Yes, I do. The Speaker 3 (4:47) beauty of this, how it works out. When the mind sees the futility of control, because it has understood the controller is the controlled. Speaker 3 (5:05) One fragment trying to dominate other fragments. And the dominant fragment is a part of other fragments. And therefore, it is like going around in circles, never, vicious circle, never getting out of it. So can there be a living without control? Just listen to this. Without will. Speaker 3 (5:38) and without direction. There must be direction in the field of knowledge. Speaker 4 (5:44) Agreed. Speaker 3 (5:45) Otherwise, I couldn't get home, the place I live. I would lose the capacity to drive a car, ride a cycle, speak a language, do all the technological things necessary in life. There, direction, calculation, decision. Speaker 3 (6:06) And that field is necessary. Choice is necessary between this and that. Here, where there is choice, there is confusion. Because there is no perception. Where there is perception, there is no choice. Choice exists because the mind is confused between this and that. Speaker 2 (6:35) Can a life be led without Speaker 3 (6:39) control, without will, without direction? That means time. Speaker 3 (6:52) And that's meditation, not just a question, an interesting, perhaps, a stimulating question, but a question, however stimulating, has no meaning by itself. It has a meaning in living. Speaker 4 (7:11) I was thinking about ordinary language usage again, as you were speaking. It's interesting, isn't it, that when we regard that somebody has performed an action, Speaker 4 (7:28) that we call willful, that this is an action that has been undertaken without understanding. Speaker 3 (7:37) So Speaker 4 (7:39) in the very distinction between will as a word and willful as an adjective, we have a hint of this distinction. Speaker 3 (7:50) But Speaker 4 (7:50) I'd like to ask you, if I could, about the relationship of will for the moment. Even though we're talking about meditation, we did regard that knowledge, in its own right, does have a proper career. Of course. And we say that decision is referred to that, choice is referred to that, and therefore will is operative there. Speaker 3 (8:18) And a direction and everything. Speaker 4 (8:19) And a direction and so on. So we are making a distinction here between... Speaker 4 (8:25) will and its role in relation to the whole field of what we call loosely know-how. Speaker 3 (8:33) Know-how, knowledge. Speaker 4 (8:34) Yes. And the confusion that occurs... When that activity, so necessary in its own right, is brought over into this, and then we can't do either of them, really, Speaker 3 (8:51) can Speaker 4 (8:52) we? Speaker 3 (8:53) Therefore we become inefficient, Speaker 4 (8:55) personal. Speaker 4 (8:57) But you see, we don't think that. What we think is that we can be terribly efficient in knowledge and be what is called unspiritual. Speaker 3 (9:06) Yes. Speaker 4 (9:06) And be a success here and not be a success here. Whereas, if I understand you correctly, you fail. Speaker 4 (9:15) You don't fail in one or the other. You just fail, period. It's Speaker 3 (9:19) a Speaker 4 (9:19) total failure if this confusion is made. You simply can't operate even well here, no matter what it might look like in the short run. Speaker 3 (9:29) As long as you are not completely in order inside yourself. Speaker 4 (9:36) Right. Exactly. Speaker 4 (9:38) So the very division that we make between inner and outer is itself a symptom of this terrible... Of thought Speaker 3 (9:47) which has divided the outer and the inner. Speaker 4 (9:50) Yes, yes. I hope you'll bear with me in going through that. Yes, that's absolutely Speaker 3 (9:57) quite right. Speaker 4 (9:58) I know in religious thought, my academic discipline, in religious thought, this confusion, well... the weight of it. Speaker 3 (10:12) You Speaker 4 (10:13) feel... And as soon as you begin to make a comment of any kind about it, that is simply raising the question. The extreme rigidity and nervousness that occurs is dramatic. Yes. Speaker 3 (10:31) You see, sir, so I'm asking, meditation covers the whole field of living, not one segment of it. Therefore... Speaker 3 (10:43) living a life without control, without the action of will, decision, direction, achievement. Is that possible? If it is not possible, it is not meditation. Therefore, life becomes superficial, meaningless. Speaker 3 (11:09) And to escape from that meaningless life, we chase all the gurus, they entertain religious entertainments, circuses, you follow, all the practice of... It has no meaning. You know... Speaker 4 (11:29) Well, of course you do. It's a rhetorical question. In the classical tradition, we have a definition of will. We say that it's desire made reasonable. Desire made reasonable. Now, of course, we've long since lost the idea of what the ancients meant. Speaker 4 (11:50) against their contemplative background by the word reason. We think it means calculation. But of course, that's not what the classical tradition means when it says reasonable. It points rather to that order which isn't defined. And it occurs to me that if we understood that statement correctly, we'd be saying will is the focus of desire without my focusing self-consciously. Speaker 3 (12:21) Yes, that's right. And watching desire to flower, and therefore watching the will in operation and let it flower, and as it flowers, as you are watching it, it dies, it withers away. Speaker 3 (12:39) It's like a flower. You allow it to bloom and it withers. It Speaker 4 (12:43) comes to be and passes away in its own... Therefore, Speaker 3 (12:46) if you are choicelessly aware of this movement of desire, control, will, focusing that will in action, and so on, so on, so on, let it watch it. And as you watch it, you will see how it loses its vitality. Speaker 3 (13:08) So there is no control. Speaker 2 (13:11) So Speaker 3 (13:13) from that arises the next question, which is, direction means space. Speaker 4 (13:22) Yes, of course. It's Speaker 3 (13:23) very interesting. It is. Speaker 4 (13:26) What Speaker 3 (13:26) is space? Space which thought has created is one thing. Speaker 3 (13:36) Space that exists in heaven, in our, what is it, in the universe, space. There must be space for a mountain to exist. There must be space for a tree to grow. There must be space for a flower to bloom. Speaker 4 (14:01) So, Speaker 3 (14:01) what is space