Why Was Ghislaine Maxwell Moved?

Is This Really Legal?

Host Liz Oyer interviews Bloomberg investigative reporter Jason Leopold about his extensive use of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to uncover government records. They discuss the

Key takeaways

• Jason Leopold has filed over 15,000 FOIA requests to Bloomberg News, earning him labels like 'FOIA terrorist' from some government agencies.
• The Freedom of Information Act applies only to the federal executive branch, explicitly exempting Congress, the courts, and the White House.

Main topics

• Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) process
• Government transparency and record-keeping

Notable quotes

"You want to stay on the agency, stay on that FOIA officer when it comes to your request, because essentially what will happen is that, you know, you're driving your kid up to college and 12 years later, you know, you're getting this response."

Conclusion

The episode underscores FOIA as an essential but increasingly strained m

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) So one of the first things that you're told when you go into federal government service is don't put anything in an email that you don't want to end up on the front page of the New York Times. Speaker 1 (0:10) Yeah, I've heard that story. Speaker 2 (0:11) And that's because of FOIA, right? Speaker 2 (0:18) Welcome to Is This Really Legal? I'm your host, Liz Oyer. A question many people have been asking is how exactly did Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's co-defendant, get transferred to a minimum security prison? The rules and regulations of the federal prison system appear to prohibit this. Yet Maxwell was transferred to a minimum security prison camp in Texas last summer. So how did this happen and why? There is actually a legal tool that exists specifically to help us get answers to questions like this. It's called the Freedom of Information Act, or FOIA for short. It was created in the 1960s to give the public access to government records. Unfortunately, it is not entirely user-friendly, and most people don't know how it works. That's what we're going to talk about today. My guest is Jason Leopold. He is a senior investigative reporter at Bloomberg News and one of the nation's leading experts on the Freedom of Information Act. It has been said that he has used FOIA more than anyone else to request records from the government. For this reason, some government agencies have labeled him a FOIA terrorist. Jason recently used FOIA to get a copy of Ghislaine Maxwell's prison transfer paperwork from the Federal Bureau of Prisons, which we'll discuss. Jason also writes an excellent newsletter called The FOIA Files, which won a National Magazine Award in 2026. His work has won a slew of other prestigious awards and accolades. I won't list them all here. Jason, thank you for joining Is This Really Legal? Speaker 1 (1:47) Thank you, Liz, for having me. Speaker 2 (1:49) Can you start by giving us just a brief overview of what the Freedom of Information Act is and how it works? The Speaker 1 (1:56) Freedom of Information Act, which celebrated its 60th birthday this year, is a law that allows anyone anywhere in the world to petition the federal government, federal executive branch agencies, for its records, for documents, all sorts of documents. You can ask for emails. You can ask for photographs. You can ask for audio recordings. You can ask for reports. So it allows people to kind of keep a check on government by requesting documents that are basically the people's documents. When the law was passed, Congress carved out the White House. They were exempt from FOIA. except maybe some smaller offices, as well as Congress itself. So the FOIA does not apply to Congress, nor does it apply to the courts or the White House. But it is a tool that journalists, historians, researchers, and just the general public can use on the state and federal level to kind of... They can be a check on power. Speaker 2 (3:14) So how do you make a FOIA request? The Speaker 1 (3:17) federal statute says that a requester must reasonably describe the records they are seeking. So what does that mean? That means that if you know that Kash Patel is the first name that just popped into my head, by the way. That's why I'm saying it. You want Kash Patel's emails. You can just file a request to say, I request disclosure of... all of Kash Patel's emails from 2026. And Speaker 2 (3:44) who do you send it to? Speaker 1 (3:45) You can go onto a website called FOIA.gov. It allows you to create a request with a bunch of agencies there, all different types of agencies, and direct it right through the portal there. You can also go onto an agency's FOIA page. So every federal agency... If you go to the bottom of the page, it'll say, you know, there'll be a privacy notice, a legal notice, and then it'll say FOIA, and that will bring you to the agency's FOIA page, and that will direct you to, you know, where the request itself should be sent to. Lots of agencies have online portals these days. Some agencies allow you to send it directly to an email address. FOIA.gov is probably the safest, just so... Your request doesn't really get lost and Speaker 2 (4:41) any of us could do this in theory Anyone Speaker 1 (4:43) can do it now as you noted, you know There are there are some important caveats with that if one were to ask for all of cash Patel's emails or the emails of You know say a past administration official at You know some executive branch agency you'd end up with a letter that would likely say, your request is broad and burdensome. Because these days, when you're asking for all emails, you're talking about tens of thousands, potentially tens of thousands of responsive records. So the requester should try to avoid asking for a voluminous amount of material. and really try to target a request to very specific records that you're looking for. I guess what I'm saying is try to avoid a phishing expedition. So anyone can really do that. Speaker 2 (5:47) So if you're requesting something relatively specific, Is the government required to respond? And if so, how quickly can you expect to receive a response? The Speaker 1 (5:56) government is required by law to respond. And a requester would receive an acknowledgement letter and a tracking number in 20 business days. You get a response where we received your request. We're either processing it. You know, you've got a fee waiver if you're a journalist or someone who is. requesting records that may be in the public interest, you know, then it's a matter of just kind of waiting for an agency to actually conduct that search and turn over responsive records. Speaker 2 (6:33) So 20 days sounds pretty quick, but I read something that you posted recently on X, and I'm just going to read it. I think you wrote, my son was in kindergarten when I filed this FOIA request that the State Department just responded to. Today, I am driving him to college. Speaker 1 (6:49) True story, Liz. No joke. So I filed that request in 2000. Speaker 1 (6:57) 12 or was it 14? I think it was 14 if I'm not mistaken. It was related to, I believe it was a request related to Guantanamo. Speaker 1 (7:09) My son was, you know, he was in kindergarten and I literally got the response while I was in my car driving up north in California, taking him to college. So it, you have some agencies, unfortunately, that. Speaker 1 (7:30) I don't even know what, so many different reasons. I mean, the State Department happens to be one of the worst agencies when it comes to FOIA. Why is that? You know, they have a massive backlog. They don't have enough people working there to work through it. And so your request kind of like falls into a black hole. And I'm sure that people who have filed requests, you know, they've experienced that to some degree or another. Speaker 2 (7:56) So if the law says the government has 20 days to respond, if it's, you know, day 21 or let's say it's even, you know, day 60 and you haven't gotten a response, what can you do? What should you do as a FOIA Speaker 1 (8:07) requester? So I should note that the agency is allowed to extend the response time by another 10 business days if it's deemed to be complex. you know, and requires like a search maybe outside the office. So now you're talking about 30 days, right? But what should happen if you don't receive a response is you reach out to the FOIA public liaison. Every agency is supposed to have a FOIA public liaison who engages with the public as it relates to you know, FOIA requests and questions that you may have, or if you want an estimated date of completion, hey, what are you going to be finished processing my request? When can I expect responsive records? That's somebody that, you know, a requester can communicate with. Now, everything I said here, Liz, is on paper. It sounds smooth, right? Hey, look, you're not getting a response. This is who you reach out to. It's honestly anything but. It's really a lot of work. and a lot of hurdles that a requester has to jump over to kind of follow their request along as it's being processed. The thing you don't want to do is just file the request and kind of forget about it. You want to stay on the agency, stay on that FOIA officer when it comes to your request, because essentially what will happen is that, you know, you're driving your kid up to college and 12 years later, you know, you're getting this response. So Speaker 2 (9:53) when they called you a FOIA terrorist, they meant you were a thorn in their side. Speaker 1 (9:57) Yeah. I mean, I hope that's what they meant. I mean, look, government agencies have had a lot of interesting names that they've called me over the years. I mean, DOJ at one point in an email, and I got this, by the way, found this out through a FOIA on myself. They said I was a member of a FOIA posse. The NSA said I was weaponizing the FOIA. I mean, I'm doing my job. I'm an investigative reporter. Documents are very important to back up what I'm reporting. I mean, despite the Speaker 2 (10:26) words you're using, weaponizing and terrorist, I mean, this is perfectly legal, what you're doing. This is what the law is there for. Speaker 1 (10:32) Yes, Speaker 2 (10:33) exactly. Speaker 1 (10:33) It gives me the right, not just as a journalist, but as a citizen, to request these records. By the way, everything I said about what you can request does not mean that an agency is just going to, whether it's on the state or federal level, that they're just going to turn everything over to you. There are nine exemptions under the FOIA. Speaker 2 (10:56) Yeah, let's talk about the exemptions. So you can request whatever you want, but that doesn't mean the government is legally obligated to give you every single thing you're seeking. What are they legally allowed to withhold? Speaker 1 (11:08) So they are allowed to withhold records that may pose a national security threat or concern, records that may reveal sources and methods, right? Intelligence agencies use that very often. They can withhold records if you're asking for any kind of records on a third party. Unless you get a waiver from that person. Speaker 1 (11:37) You know you you your request will be rejected. So even if you're requesting records on a public figure You the requester have to make a case That what you're requesting is in the public interest and that the agency should conduct what's known as a public interest balancing test Where they you know waive the right, you know, the person's privacy rights in favor of disclosure They can you know agencies withhold? information if it will reveal trade secrets, commercial or financial information, bank information. There's one that's kind of rarely used about wells and maps that's way down below on the exemption list. Speaker 2 (12:29) So