PTSD, Moral Injury & Family: Zoe Cullen on Loving Someone Through Trauma

In The Heart Of The Vault

Zoe Cullen joins the host to discuss her harrowing journey as an Australian Army veteran's wife while coping with his severe PTSD and moral injury after multiple deployments, particularly a grueling 12-month stint in

Key takeaways

• Zoe Cullen's husband, Andrew
• Cullen, served as an Australian Army EOD officer with four generations of military service in his family.
• Andy's 12-month deployment in Afghanistan triggered severe PTSD, leading to emotional withdrawal, alcohol abuse, hallucinations, and suicidal thoughts.
• Zoe experienced profound moral injury from the abandonment during deployments and later felt betrayed when defense services cut off support after Andy left active duty.
• The couple's turning point came when they began writing down their separate experiences of trauma, which led to publishing their book Resurrected: A Story of Hope.
• Zoe realized her

Main topics

• Military deployment & family separation
• PTSD symptoms & emotional abuse in veterans
• Moral injury vs. trauma-based fear responses

Notable quotes

"For him that was a death sentence. For me, it was a life sentence."

Conclusion

Zoe and Andy's journey demonstrates how radical honesty, shared storytelling, and purpose-driven

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Everybody noticed him change. Everyone noticed him change. And everybody would always say, how's Andy? How's Andy? How's Andy? But what they didn't notice is what it was doing to me. He'd have physical reactions to what he was feeling inside. That deployment in 2011, by the end of it, I remember thinking, you've been away for more than half of our marriage. Something changed for him overseas. And Speaker 1 (0:22) he was just like, I want to come home. Welcome Zoe. How are you feeling? Yeah. Speaker 2 (0:27) Feeling all right? Yeah. Speaker 1 (0:28) A Speaker 2 (0:28) little bit nervous. A Speaker 1 (0:29) little bit nervous? Yeah. What's making you nervous? Speaker 2 (0:32) Um. Speaker 2 (0:35) I don't know. Maybe that my story's complex, I guess. There's so much in there, what to share, what not to share, how much to share, how much is too much. Speaker 1 (0:46) Yeah. Speaker 2 (0:49) Yeah, I could like, yeah. Speaker 1 (0:51) There's no need to feel nervous. I think the beautiful thing about this podcast is it is organic conversation and like you and I spoke about before briefly, it's about being vulnerable. Speaker 2 (1:05) My Speaker 1 (1:06) intention with this podcast is to give you a safe space where you can just open and feel vulnerable and speak your truth and however that may look for you. But also... to help as many people as we can because there's so many people in these situations that unless we talk about people don't know what they don't know, right? Speaker 2 (1:26) Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 (1:27) So thank you for being here. I appreciate you. And beautifully, perfectly handy that you live around the corner pretty much. I love that. So let's go. Speaker 1 (1:39) Probably, I mean, obviously a mum of four beautiful children. Let's go back to you and your husband when you met. Was Andy in the forces then? Was he in the army then? Speaker 2 (1:52) Yes, he was. Okay. He was doing his, he just completed, well, actually we kind of met, he just completed his officer's training, whatever you call it. I'm not your typical. I was not your typical army wife. I don't remember all those things because I was kind of like that's your thing. I won't fit into that. Sure. I'm very, yeah. So I grew up on the outskirts of Byron Bay in Myokum. My parents built a mud brick house. I was one of six kids. So my parents were ex-hippies, so a bit rebellious. I kind of probably brought up the same way. So anything that resembled structure or, you know, so the military was like, hmm, I'm probably Speaker 1 (2:45) not Speaker 2 (2:46) going to fit as an officer's wife. I like the idea of it so long as I get to wear nice dresses and we go to the officer's mess and do that sort of thing. That sounds fun. But, yeah, I didn't really have a very good understanding of what I was getting myself into. I was a bit naive. Speaker 1 (3:01) How did you meet? Speaker 2 (3:03) We met at a nightclub in Byron Bay. Right. It was called Kokomonga's. Ah. Didn't Speaker 1 (3:10) know they had a nightclub in Byron Bay. On Speaker 2 (3:13) the main street, sort of near the Commonwealth Bank. And it's now, I think it's a, I think it might be a bar or something. I'm not sure what it is now. Speaker 2 (3:24) It was quite funny. I was there with my sister and the days when we fancied ourselves like, hey, we know how to get the party started and our job is done here, let's go, sort of thing. But he actually saw me dancing and I should have probably been a bit more upset about this but it was a bet. Somebody dared him, said, I bet you can't get that girl to dance. Speaker 1 (3:49) Right. Speaker 2 (3:50) And he did. He got me to dance. Yeah. Because he was just disarming and he's actually a really good dancer. Yeah. Can't sing but can dance. He's got really good dance moves. And I saw him and I thought, oh, you're actually really just really nice. Like anybody else that would come up by that, he'd be like, go away. Yeah. Speaker 1 (4:08) But Speaker 2 (4:09) he was like there's just something different about him. Speaker 1 (4:10) Yeah. Speaker 2 (4:11) And so then we sat down and he bought me a drink. He said, oh, you've got really nice teeth. And I'm like, that's a really interesting pickup line. Speaker 1 (4:23) You're not very Speaker 2 (4:25) good at this, but okay. Thank you. And then we went for a walk and he bought me a meat pie up on the corner and we were just talking and it started to rain and he picked me up and spun me around, like literally in the rain. It was quite romantic. And then I was... still eating my pie. I was going to Speaker 1 (4:46) say you weren't still eating your pie, were you? No, Speaker 2 (4:48) I had it in my hand. He sort of picked it up. It was a bit awkward but it was kind of like, well, this guy's literally sweeping me off my feet. Okay, calm down. But then I had a mouthful of pie. I was just about finished and then he leaned in for a kiss and I was like pushed him away. I said, I'm still, I've got a mouthful of pie. And he was like, oh, my God. And I'm like, okay, now you can kiss me. It was very clumsy but very kind of romantic. And then we sat in the car and just spoke, just talked while it was raining. I was waiting for my sister. She was dancing. And we were just talking and I remember just sitting there thinking, he's like, oh, you should take me home. I'm like, I'm not that kind of girl. And he's like, what do you mean? Just take me home. I'm a nice guy. I'm like, yeah, no, you don't know how my family works. My mum's Greek, my dad's Maltese. Speaker 2 (5:41) built up brought up in a faith home faith-filled home so I'm like this is I'm a good girl it doesn't work like that and he's like okay I'm still talking And I was doing the windscreen was fogging up and I was doing these. Speaker 2 (5:58) the just like you know the the stars with my knuckles on the windscreen anyway that was the end of it I was like oh he was a really nice guy and that was the end of it and then It sort of didn't hear from him. And then about four months later, there was talk of the war in Iraq. And I just had this feeling of like dread. And I was like, oh. I wonder if he's going to go. What Speaker 1 (6:25) year was this? Speaker 1 (6:28) one of the walls i don't know Speaker 2 (6:30) well we got together we ended up getting together in 2000 and Speaker 2 (6:35) three Speaker 1 (6:38) Right. Speaker 2 (6:38) So there was talk of all that and then the guys went over Speaker 1 (6:42) and Speaker 2 (6:43) so he didn't go over to that. But then I remember driving one night and... the stars appeared on my windscreen and I was like oh my god there's like something more meant to be about this and and we ended up um getting together in like on Anzac Day about six months after we first met so or five months after whatever so wow Speaker 1 (7:08) and Speaker 2 (7:09) it was all just kind of meant to be yeah just kind of knew that we're meant to be yeah Speaker 1 (7:13) did had he been away at that stage he Speaker 2 (7:18) had been away he'd done a few He hadn't done any... He'd gone to Malaysia, I think. So before... Speaker 2 (7:26) So he had been in the army for quite a while because he started out as a digger and then he got encouraged to go and become an officer because he was just telling everybody what to do and arguing with the officers and stuff and they were like, obviously, I think he was going to get himself into a bit of trouble but they obviously recognised that he was... His father served 50 years in the Army. Wow. So he's actually a fourth generation. Speaker 1 (7:57) Wow. Speaker 2 (7:58) Yeah, so it's Speaker 1 (7:58) – Speaker 2 (7:58) and he was the one out of – he's one of four brothers and he was the one out of the four brothers that served and so on. But when I met him he had – he was pursuing explosive ordnance, so EOD, which was like, oh, my God, that's pretty full on. And he became one of the best at his job. Speaker 2 (8:26) Yeah, that kind of took us on a different sort of journey altogether. I told him when we first got together, I said, I'll do this for five years. You can do this for five years. I don't see myself. Being an officer's wife is just not on my plan. Speaker 1 (8:42) So you laid it out, laid your cards. Speaker 2 (8:44) Yeah. Speaker 1 (8:44) Yeah. Speaker 2 (8:45) I've had a bit of drama, some bad relationship choices and stuff before that, so I kind of was at a point where I was like I had sort of found myself and I realised I needed to be a bit more assertive if I was not – because I just made some dumb decisions, meant stupid – nasty guys. Speaker 1 (9:06) Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:07) Things that had their own trauma, that brought their own trauma in a way. Speaker 1 (9:11) Yeah. I Speaker 2 (9:12) found myself at uni, I was in a relationship with a guy for five years from the age of 18. And so that was my like formative years. And he ended up getting married. He was Indian and got married in secret and didn't tell me. Speaker 1 (9:31) Oh, gosh. And it Speaker 2 (9:32) was like then I found out. And he was still like trying to see me and I'm like, what the heck? Like so there was a whole lot of stuff that, like I said, I could talk about so much. But I don't, when I look back at my life, I don't, I was just discussing this with my husband this morning. It's interesting to me what stands out as the trauma that I think or the experiences that I think have actually shaped me. Speaker 1 (10:00) Yeah. Speaker 2 (10:01) That. It sounds traumatic and I would hate for my daughters to go through something like that, but it was also a lot of good came out of it. Speaker 1 (10:10) And you also, I often think of, you know, situations or things that you've gone through when you're younger. Like would you have embraced the relationship with Andy had you not gone through that? No Speaker 2 (10:22) way. Because Speaker 1 (10:22) you just don't know how it shapes you, do you? Speaker 2 (10:24) And I've often told him that. Like I said, I've had some awful relationships. Yeah. If I hadn't have had those relationships, when I met Andy, I was in his phone as Byron Bay Zoe. Speaker 2 (10:42) So that should give you an idea of how many Zoe's did he have in there. That was my question. I'm like, Speaker 1 (10:47) how Speaker 2 (10:48) many Speaker 1 (10:48) Zoe's are there? Okay. So when Speaker 2 (10:51) I saw that, I'm like, okay, right. So I'm a bit of a player. Like I wasn't, but I was like, I'm taking control. Don't fall in love because I'm going back home. This is a lot because he lived in Sydney. I lived still in Byron. I'm like, you know, this is probably not going to work. Speaker 2 (11:13) Yeah, the thing is if I hadn't have gone through all of those. Speaker 2 (11:18) nasty experiences, I probably would have judged him as being too. you're a bad boy but instead it was like okay i can see how people can have their past and how people can want to be better yeah i want to be improved and that's all he ever told me he never promised me any different he's like he said to me one of the most amazing things the most honest things when i met him when i remember speaking to him and i was just like this is a man who has values and integrity i don't see that i haven't seen that in any other men which is kind of sad Speaker 2 (11:53) like the guys that I knew. And I remember thinking, there's something different about you. What is it? And I told him, you know, I had some guys tell me, oh, all guys are like this. And he said to me, he said, well, you know, yeah, all guys can be like that until they meet somebody that they want to be different for. And I was like, oh. Speaker 1 (12:17) I think because we all have, I always say that to Evie as well, being the oldest and she's not necessarily, she has more of an idea than I ever had. I mean, they're all over it now compared to, I can't speak for you, but certainly for me, I was just, I don't know, just not self-aware really. Like I wouldn't take any messing, but, you know, I mean, social media's got a lot to play now and things like that, but it's that. It's that self-worth that, like you said, like you've gone in almost with the tools that you didn't necessarily ask for, but you had these tools where you could handle him. Yeah. Speaker 1 (13:02) I think, you know, like Hevy will say to me, you know, about the guys, guys are this and guys are that, and I go, don't go down that route because there's some beautiful Speaker 2 (13:12) guys Speaker 1 (13:13) out there. And just as much as we can sit here as a female, we can only walk in a female's shoes because we're a female, there's guys out there saying the same, and that's what prompted me, what you said with Andy, you know, just wanting to be different for the right person. Yep. and grow for the right person and that's what happens. I know it's not always the case. Speaker 2 (13:36) I think too, like it comes down, a lot of it comes down to values and how you've been brought up as well. Like he was brought up with a solid, solid family. Like I said, his father served for 50 years. He was one of four boys and the relationship that his parents had that modelled like for him something that he wanted. Speaker 1 (13:55) Yeah. That was Speaker 2 (13:56) what he eventually wanted. And I had the same thing. Speaker 2 (14:00) Two parents that absolutely adored each other. Speaker 1 (14:03) My Speaker 2 (14:03) dad. Speaker 2 (14:05) My dad was a nurse, started quite late because obviously he had been a hippie and everything before that. Speaker 2 (14:14) He worked really hard, like so hard, just he was the provider for the family. My mum was the mum and she was the provider, the nurturer. She did all that. So I always knew what I ultimately wanted. I mean there was other modern ideas that I wanted about being successful at business. But you had Speaker 1 (14:33) that foundation, right? I Speaker 2 (14:34) had that foundation. So I was, you know what they say, the apple never falls far from the tree. Bring them up well and, you know, they'll – I don't know, replicate. You can't unless you're in, unless that's your default. I think you will go back to your default. So my default was how I was raised and Speaker 1 (14:53) the Speaker 2 (14:53) same with Andy. So I had this idea of the kind of life I wanted to live and so when there was talk about, okay, well, the military, what's that going to look like for me, this I have no idea about. I have no exposure to this. So but I knew that it wasn't something I would be good at because I didn't the whole idea about going away to war and long absences. I'm like, you know, my dad is home every night unless he was doing night shift. Speaker 1 (15:26) They Speaker 2 (15:26) raised children together. That was marriage to me. That's what marriage looked like. So. Speaker 2 (15:36) Like I said, when I was thinking about the most traumatic experiences, probably so Andy went away the first time when I was pregnant with our second son, Charlie. Speaker 2 (15:54) He was due to go away and he was due to go away. I think it was around Anzac Day and Charlie ended up being born on the 17th of April. So I was locked to get him induced. I'm like, I can't do this without you. Ended up going naturally because my body, I think I was just so freaked out about him not being there. Speaker 1 (16:13) Yeah. Speaker 2 (16:15) Ended up going naturally the day that I was induced to be induced. So he was there for his birth. but then left a week after and then was gone for like six months. So he missed the first six months of Charlie's life. Speaker 1 (16:29) I mean, that alone is not normal, is it? Speaker 2 (16:31) No. And that's not normal for – I was just so blessed. I moved back home to live with my parents because I had Joseph who was obviously two and a half. and my mum was running a daycare at home. So I'm like, well, this is perfect. So he just slotted into that. He's got a beautiful relationship with my parents as a result to this day, very special relationship. But he just slotted into that. So there was daycare. I was able to look after Charlie and have Joseph as well, but I had the support of my parents, you know. So that was quite special. But that was six months of absence and that was hard and I just remember that being. really hard. But I think the biggest person that that impacted was Charlie. Because Charlie didn't know who his dad was for the first six months of his life. So when Andy came back, he was a stranger. Speaker 1 (17:24) And Speaker 2 (17:25) actually Andy had some experiences in Afghanistan himself that had involved. Speaker 2 (17:32) young children the deaths of young children so for him to come back and see his kids that was a really hard thing for him and that that was to have a ripple effect like that was to have an ongoing effect until quite a quite a lot of charlie's childhood um Speaker 2 (17:50) And then the second time he went away, probably when he got back that first time, I started noticing a few little cracks, like excessive drinking, which is hard to see as a crack because it's so much a part of the military culture. Can I Speaker 1 (18:06) just ask as well with that? I mean, obviously I spoke to you briefly about Glenn being in the Navy, but he never went on long stints. It was getting to that point, PNC discharged. Speaker 1 (18:19) But... Speaker 1 (18:22) I know a lot of his friends who went out on the new ships for night. I saw lots of different things happen and unfold and very close friends to us. But just in your situation with that, when they come back after nine months away and they come into Civvy Street, so to speak, and back into that family dynamic, like you said, he didn't know Charlie. Speaker 2 (18:49) Well, he Speaker 1 (18:50) knew him at that first week, didn't he? And then obviously not for six months or so. But what are the resources given to them when they come back to you? Is it supposed to be, well, you just get on with it and... Speaker 2 (19:05) Okay, so my... Speaker 2 (19:09) They would do like family days on base and stuff before they would go for deployments and you'd get like little booklets to say, oh, it was kind of like, you know, what to expect when they come back and stuff like that. Speaker 2 (19:26) You know, I didn't live on base. So I didn't have, that was my choice too. I didn't want to live on base. I didn't want to be. Speaker 2 (19:36) We lived in like DHA housing and stuff like that, but I didn't want to live on base where like I don't know that you can do that everywhere, but there's some place definitely in Darwin. I just wanted to have my community. I didn't want to be – I didn't want to lose myself and Speaker 1 (19:53) be Speaker 2 (19:53) like that's what you are. Most of Speaker 1 (19:55) them are horrible anyway. It's so quite depressing to be honest, like for a better word. Speaker 2 (19:59) And I just found I was just – I mean we – I just found I was very different as a personality type and that might sound like. Speaker 1 (20:10) No, I understand that. But I just Speaker 2 (20:11) remembered meeting some of them. So we had a stint where we lived in America and that was fantastic when Joseph was a baby. That was the best thing ever. We were there in Florida for like a year. And I just remember meeting some of the other military wives. I've got a beautiful friendship with one, but she's kind of like me, a bit fiery, a bit rebellious, cheeky. Yeah. But some of the others I met were just like. Speaker 2 (20:39) Stepford Wives. Yeah. Like just no, almost like they're just. Speaker 2 (20:47) They just go along. Speaker 1 (20:49) Yeah. Speaker 2 (20:49) Whereas I'm kind of like pulling at the bit. I'm the one kind of trying to pull in different directions. So I Speaker 1 (20:55) don't Speaker 2 (20:56) know. I mean everybody's got their own story. A Speaker 1 (20:58) square peg trying to fit in a rain hole kind of thing. Yeah, that's Speaker 2 (21:00) me. Speaker 1 (21:01) Yeah. But Speaker 2 (21:01) I feel like they just kind of slotted in and I'm like I'll never be that perfect. Yeah. I'll never be the person who opens my handbag and I have got something for every occasion. It's just not me. I'm just like. handbag who needs a handbag all I need is my phone yeah Speaker 1 (21:16) like everything's Speaker 2 (21:17) on the out so I've just I've always just felt I never I never fitted in with that so there's probably a lot more resources available to me but I didn't really know too many and to be honest I wasn't really interested I was just kind of like okay we'll just get on with life you're back now let's get back to back to reality which I saw that was you know but Like I said, the crack started to show and I started to see a few little things where he's like getting a bit angry and whatever. We ended up buying our first place, moved out to Ipswich of all places, but it was all we could afford. We wanted to own and I'm like, you know, let's start. Encouraged him to work out how to build. So we renovated and that was the first time he'd ever renovated. really kind of encouraged him to see that he could do something else. Speaker 1 (22:08) Yeah. I Speaker 2 (22:09) already had in my mind, remember, our five-year plan? Yeah. It's starting to wrap up. Five-year plan's starting to wrap up. But needless to say, he was so good at his job and so, I think, determined, you know, to have all that training. And that's all he knew, right? That's all he knew. Speaker 1 (22:30) Yeah. Speaker 2 (22:31) He was making decisions that... I wasn't really aware of and there were decisions to continue down this path which made him such it was such a niche sort of role as well so in 2011 we had a third our third child Eden Speaker 2 (22:54) And he was asked to go back to Afghanistan. Speaker 1 (23:00) So had he from coming back after Charlie was so six months when Charlie was six months old, then you had Eden. Speaker 2 (23:09) Yeah, so they were two years and four months apart, the first three. Speaker 1 (23:12) Right, and so that deployment was how far apart from the one when? So Speaker 2 (23:19) it would have been about two years. Two Speaker 1 (23:21) years, right, okay. But he'd Speaker 2 (23:22) had, he would do like. little ones out to Woomera and he'd be gone for like six weeks, eight weeks. Yeah. Still full on training. So lots of training, lots of absence. That deployment in 2011, by the end of it, I remember thinking, you've been away for more than half of our