The Michelle Obama Interview (from “Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso”)

IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson

Michelle Obama reflects on life after the White House, her transition to podcasting, and her perspective on current societal challenges. She

Key takeaways

• Michelle Obama describes current times as 'janky'—messy, worn, and off course, reflecting a national sense of confusion and disarray.
• She emphasizes that her post-White House life is marked by freedom and a shift from parenting to being a consultant friend to her grown daughters.

Main topics

• Life after the White House
• Michelle Obama's podcasting journey

Notable quotes

I mean, the country feels like it has a hole in it and it's a little rusty. Like a hole in the car that we're messy right now, that we're confused, that we're upside down.

Conclusion

Michelle Obama reaffirms her commitment to inspiring future generation

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Hey, IMO listeners. We wanted to share something special with you this week. An episode of another podcast from our network, Higher Ground. Talk easy with Sam Fragoso. This show is a weekly series of intimate conversations with artists, authors, politicians, and entertainers. Sam has an uncanny ability to get guests to open up in ways they haven't before, leaving listeners feeling connected and curious about new works of art. In this episode, Sam talks with my sister about many things such as the pivot to podcasting, vivid memories about growing up on the South side of Chicago, the work ethic modeled by our father, and the enduring influence of our mother, and the complicated dynamics of navigating life inside and outside the White House. There's so many good nuggets of inspiration here that I'm sure you'll love. You can listen and watch more Talk Easy. wherever you get podcasts. Speaker 3 (1:00) What would you like me to refer to you as throughout this episode? I have former first lady, Mrs. Obama, ma'am, boss. Speaker 2 (1:09) I answer to it all. I don't like former first lady. That's just, that's too much. Speaker 3 (1:15) We'll cross that one off. Speaker 2 (1:16) Mrs. Obama, I guess it's okay. You don't love Speaker 3 (1:19) that though. Speaker 2 (1:20) I know, it just sounds so official. You know, Mrs. Obama. But I think it's your, if you want to call me Michelle, if you want to call me, hey, you. I don't think Speaker 3 (1:29) we're going to do hey, you. Speaker 2 (1:32) Okay. Speaker 3 (1:40) This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show. Today, former first lady, bestselling author, and now fellow podcast host, Michelle Obama. Since the time Michelle first appeared on the campaign trail alongside Barack in 2007, she's attracted a mix of excitement, adoration, and also unrelenting scrutiny. And through all of it, whether it's on the stump in Iowa, launching initiatives like Let's Move, publishing her chart-topping memoir Becoming, or speaking candidly about marriage, grief, race, or public service, she's maintained a level of self-possession and really authenticity. that feels increasingly rare in public life. All of which is on full display on her weekly podcast, IMO, which she co-hosts alongside her older brother, Craig Robinson. And so today, we start with the present. Life away from 1600 Penn, her version of Doomscrolling in 2026, and why podcasting appealed to her at this stage in life. From there, we discuss the lessons she learned growing up on the South Side of Chicago. The ambition that carried her from Whitney Young to Princeton to Harvard Law, the first lunch she shared with her future husband, the period of adjustment that followed Barack's bid for the presidency, the complicated dynamics of life inside the White House, and a whole lot more. But before we get into the interview, I wanted to note at the top that Michelle Obama is not a politician. As she says a couple times today, she never even particularly liked politics. And while there have been repeated calls for her to run for president, whether it's from party strategists, cable news commentators, or plenty of anxious Democrats, she has never once expressed interest in mounting such a campaign or even in the job itself. I mention this because in the last year, we've had a lot more politicians on Talk Easy, and I suspect discerning viewers will notice a real difference in tone, temperament, and approach to how I handle those conversations with those in elected office, including Our recent episode with Governor Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, or our slightly contentious talk from last year with Senator Elizabeth Warren, both of which you can find wherever you are listening or watching this right now. So with that, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Michelle Obama. Speaker 3 (4:06) I want to start at a very simple place, which is, how are you doing? Speaker 2 (4:12) I'm doing good. Is that true? I'm loving the 60s, you know. I mean, we're out of office. There's a new level of freedom. I am truly an empty nester, Speaker 3 (4:26) meaning Speaker 2 (4:27) that I have grown daughters that are really good. Speaker 3 (4:30) And Speaker 2 (4:31) they are independent. And I'm now moving from... parent to consultant friend. And I love that place. But for the world, Speaker 3 (4:42) I Speaker 2 (4:44) am personally doing really well. Speaker 3 (4:46) I heard you on a recent episode of IMO. You said, I'm good, but for the world. The title for the episode was, Call These Times What They Are, Janky. Now, janky is the makeshift studio I made 10 years ago when I first started this show. And Speaker 2 (5:03) doesn't it feel like the country is there? A Speaker 3 (5:05) little, but janky to me feels like the banana yellow Datsun that Barack picked you up in on your first. Like, that's janky. That's Speaker 2 (5:12) janky. When Speaker 3 (5:13) you say janky, what do you mean by that? Speaker 2 (5:16) I mean, the country feels like it has a hole in it and it's a little rusty. Like Speaker 3 (5:20) a Speaker 2 (5:20) hole in Speaker 3 (5:20) the Speaker 2 (5:20) car? Yeah, like a hole in the car that we're messy. right now, that we're confused, that we're upside down. That's what it feels like. It feels like we are off course. Not that we can't get back on course, but I don't think anybody's happy in the mess we're in. I don't hear or see or feel anyone who's like, yeah, this is exactly what I wanted. Not deep down. And so it feels janky. It feels... crumpled and messy and rusted and worn and tattered and torn. I Speaker 3 (5:59) want to know your day-to-day, like at the White House, there was a nightly ritual, at least my understanding. There were two binders of briefings that would get delivered in the early evening. One was for you and one was for the president, and you'd read yours in the sitting area of your dressing room. At this point, like, do you get a binder like that every night? Like, do you get a basically like a printed version of the doom scroll of what's happening in the news? No, Speaker 2 (6:24) no, I don't. I don't do that. Speaker 3 (6:25) What's your engagement with that? Well, Speaker 2 (6:27) I live with Google, my husband. Speaker 3 (6:31) Is that your nickname for him? Speaker 2 (6:32) No, I don't. Speaker 2 (6:35) But he's my source of information, you know, although he is trying to ease himself of knowing too much. Speaker 1 (6:43) He Speaker 2 (6:44) is an important source at dinner every night. You know, maybe not every night. He's my primary source. I Speaker 3 (6:51) mean, it's a pretty good source to have. Speaker 2 (6:52) It's Speaker 3 (6:52) a Speaker 2 (6:52) very good source to have, although, you know, he doesn't have inside information. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't have access to the current leadership in that way. Speaker 2 (7:02) But he knows things and he's reading things. And I'm usually like, is there something I need to look at? If there's a good article, you know, just tell me. Tell me. Just like a lot of people feel about him. They're like, can you call me when you're packing up and getting on the helicopter? Can you just give me a little hint? The Speaker 3 (7:18) helicopter to go where? Speaker 2 (7:20) That we don't know. But people think there would be a helicopter that would come for us, you know, and they just want to know ahead of time. Speaker 3 (7:27) And just to be clear, you'll have a seat on the helicopter for a 6'1", long haired podcaster, right? I just want to get that out. In becoming, you say, so little of who I am. happened in those eight years. So much more of who I was happened before. Like, you come of age on the south side of Chicago, on the upper floor of 7436 Euclid Avenue, in a room separated by a wood partition between you and your brother Craig. And I've heard your husband describe your upbringing as the black version of Leave It to Beaver. Speaker 2 (8:03) Is that a fair assessment? Is that how it felt to you? Well, compared to his sort of topsy-turvy life, we were a regular American family. Mom, dad, brother, sister, one of each. Speaker 3 (8:17) My Speaker 2 (8:18) dad was the breadwinner in the household. He didn't put on a suit and tie. He put on a blue engineer's uniform. Speaker 2 (8:28) He had MS, so he didn't gallivant into the house and say, honey, I'm home. He was a shift worker, you know, so he had days, nights, afternoons. And my mom had a calendar up on the refrigerator that had his shifts worked out so we could all know when was dad going to be home for dinner? Is this the week that he could go to the basketball game? You know, so he would do that calendar so that we could. plan our lives around just knowing where he would be. My mom stayed home. She was a housewife until I went to high school. She was involved in the PTA, very involved when we were young because she made a choice to send us to the neighborhood public school around the corner. But it was a neighborhood public school in a Black community. But Speaker 3 (9:17) she often encouraged you to question teachers and authority, right? For sure. Why do you think she did that? Speaker 2 (9:23) As my mom said, you know, a lot of adults just didn't give, don't give little people credit for having brains and thoughts. And she, you know, for whatever reason, my mom, you know, she would have been an amazing child therapist. She understood kids and she enjoyed them. She enjoyed us. And she saw from an early age that. we could be taught things, that we could understand, that we could figure things out on our own, and that if you explain something to a child rather than snatching it from them or spanking them, that they would get it. So she believed we were really smart, that we had all this capability, and that sometimes our teachers were people who didn't have it. You know, I mean, she was pretty honest. She'd point out it's like that teacher shouldn't be a teacher. She doesn't know what she's talking about. And she was very concerned about not letting some other person damage her children. She wanted us to learn how to fight our own battles in a way that was effective. Sometimes she said I would go a little, I would cross the, not cross the line, but I would play on the edge of the line. And Speaker 3 (10:37) what would that look like? Speaker 2 (10:38) There was this one time in high school, I remember it distinctly. I was in this, I went to a great magnet high school, but there was, I think I was a sophomore. I was in some English course that was just kind of basic. We were doing vocabulary in a basic way where we had to find words, put them on a card like we were children and write the definition. And these cards somehow had credit. I always thought the assignment for high school student was kind of stupid and lazy for the part of the teacher. But, you know, it was easy. So I had done all these cards and I'd done all of them. When I got my grade, I had a C. I went to my teacher and I was like, what? What's with the C? I know it's Speaker 1 (11:22) a Speaker 2 (11:22) limited amount of work you have to do. And I know I've done it. You made your case. Right. But all he said was, you didn't turn in your cards. And I was like, how? how could I not turn in my cards? I actually turned in my cards. And then I thought, so you have us doing these cards and you don't even, you're not even keeping track of them. So this is some bullshit, basically. You're allowed to curse Speaker 3 (11:44) on the show. Yeah, well, Speaker 2 (11:45) I didn't wait to be asked. Yes, yes, we curse. Not all the time, but yeah. As much as you want here. Speaker 3 (11:51) Okay, Speaker 2 (11:52) okay. So then I said, well, show me where you keep the cards that students turn in. He opened a drawer. where all these cards were just strewn about. I mean, it was like a dump truck of cards, these cards. And I was like, you have us doing this, and you've just thrown these cards in here. You're not even paying attention. And so I start going through the drawer. He's like, look. And I was like, there were thousands of cards. It was like he was, that was such a jerk move. And so that's Speaker 3 (12:21) like right here for you. Like you're describing it as if it happened two days ago. I Speaker 2 (12:25) mean, it's so unfair and outrageous. So I have an attitude already. And so I start taking the cards out. OK, you want me to look at them? So I was taking them out and I started throwing them on his desk because I was like, it's going to be in your way, too. You're going to have me go through this pile of junk you just threw in the drawer. And I actually found all my cards. And when I found them. I just threw them on his desk as like, here they are. And I was like, call the principal. Call. You don't like my attitude because this, what you've done to us, having us do this stupid assignment that you're not even tracking, the principal should know. Please call my mother. You know, it was that kind of stuff. And I went home and I told my mother this story. And she was like, well, you might not have wanted to have thrown the cards on his desk. She said, you were right. You know, you were fundamentally right. And I eventually got my A in the cards. Did you get the grade you wanted? I did. Because I was like, let's call in the authority. Speaker 3 (13:23) You went above him. Speaker 2 (13:24) Well, I didn't have to. I called his bluff. There we go. Are you a poker player? Have you ever played? Oh, no, no, no, no. Speaker 3 (13:32) I feel like you'd Speaker 2 (13:33) be Speaker 3 (13:33) pretty good. Seems like a waste of time. Oh, no, it's fun. When you, I'm not going to defend poker here, but I. Speaker 2 (13:43) We want to go in on poker, Sam. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 3 (13:46) My parents are going to be like, so you talked about Texas Hold'em with her? Holy cow. My understanding is to get to Whitney Young, you had to wake up at 530 in the morning, make your way to 75th and Jeffrey Speaker 2 (13:57) to Speaker 3 (13:58) catch the first of two buses. Now, I was a kid who also rode the bus to school. Not as far, not as long. Did you ever nap on the bus? Did you procrastinate your homework and finish it at the last second? This is before the iPhone, before the Walkman. I'm sorry to age you here. Don't, no worries. As you saw the city unfold before you, like, what would you do? What did you imagine? Speaker 2 (14:23) You know, when you're up that early in the morning, you're barely up. It feels like a nap Speaker 3 (14:27) to me. Speaker 2 (14:28) Yeah. And it's still dark out at 530 in the morning, especially in the winters. I mean, we could take the whole bus ride from the south side to the west side and the sun would barely start coming up. And because it was so early. You know, we were commuting with business people, the adults, seeing the city in its fullness, right? You know, in Chicago, because you're a Chicagoan, you kind of live in your neighborhood. Yeah, you stay in your pocket. You stay in your pocket, and downtown is a really kind of special place. Well, we live downtown because the students at Whitney Young had to go through downtown. I got a feel for the life of this other world, the important part of Chicago, right? Passing the Art Institute, going down Jackson Boulevard and passing the big hotels with the bellmen and the bellhops and the... passing some of the financial district and then moving further west as things were not developed at the time. I mean, the near west side is now this bastion of bourgeois, blah, blah, blah. But then it was pretty abandoned and run down and the school was right on the edge of that place. So sitting there and taking in that experience was kind of a part of the ride that I enjoyed and the wonder and the kind of unfolding of what what life had to offer beyond my neighborhood. And Speaker 3 (15:52) what did you want at that point? Speaker 2 (15:54) I had a distinct understanding that there were things that you could control at that age that would get you to a better place. Speaker 3 (16:04) What do you mean? Speaker 2 (16:05) We all understood that in order to succeed, you had to make some right choices. And the neighborhood high school wasn't a place that would direct you where you wanted to go. And so I knew that Whitney Young, this new magnet high school that was doing what the multi-age program did, which was drawing in all of the best talent. would give me an opportunity to learn and learn safely. Speaker 3 (16:30) Because Speaker 2 (16:31) you're also, when you're dealing with neighborhood schools, you're dealing with what is it like to be in a neighborhood school and be a smart kid when not everybody else is thriving, right? Because there's nothing that's more frustrated to kids who struggle than sitting next to the kid who's getting the A. And now you've got to fight to get home or you've got a code switch to get home because, you know, kids are frustrated, right? Or they don't have a parent at home or there's something else going on in them. And who gets the brunt of it except is the kids that stand out. And that impedes your learning. And I knew all that. And I was like, I want to be in a high school where I'm not fighting with, you know, where all the kids are on the kind of same page, where it's like really cool to excel and thrive. You Speaker 3 (17:19) sound like a Speaker 2 (17:19) pretty Speaker 3 (17:19) wise teenager. Speaker 2 (17:20) I was pretty, pretty wise because, you know, my parents were. They trusted us to make these decisions. And it wasn't like my mom was the one that was doing this research. My dad was working all the time. My parents didn't go to college. They didn't know this pathway. But they knew that we'd figure it out. I was already thinking very strategically about life. And when I got to height. So the short question is, what was it that I wanted? I wanted to be on this pathway that would lead me to a place where I would have options. I didn't know what those options needed to be. I didn't see it necessarily, but I knew the links to education, the best education that I could get would at least give me the foundation to figure it out when I got there. Now, Speaker 3 (18:11) the story you tell over and over again, I've heard you tell it many times. You're a senior. In high school, you're in the top 10 % of your class at Whitney Young, and you arrive at your appointment with the school guidance counselor. Now, I want to know, if you can go back to this moment, how did you present your plans to this woman? Like, how did you describe or lay out your dreams to her? Speaker 2 (18:37) And Speaker 3 (18:37) did she ask you any questions? I Speaker 2 (18:39) had four schools that I was looking at that I walked in and said, look, I'm going to apply to. a state school, Speaker 3 (18:46) like Speaker 2 (18:47) University of Illinois. I'm going to apply to an out-of-school state school, the University of Madison in Wisconsin. I was going to apply to an HBCU Howard. And I was going to apply to Princeton, an Ivy League school, because my brother went there. And I was smarter than him and worked harder than him. So I was like, he's managing. I was like... I went to the campus. I was like, it's lovely. It seems safe. It's a great school. It'll be an interesting education. I'm going to give it a shot. That was sort of the research I came in with. So I'm sure I presented that to her. You Speaker 3 (19:23) were prepared. Speaker 2 (19:23) And I think her thing when she looked at Princeton, she says. Speaker 2 (19:29) Essentially, you might be reaching too far on that. That might be a stretch for you. Speaker 3 (19:35) I Speaker 2 (19:35) don't know if you're Princeton material, Speaker 3 (19:37) which Speaker 2 (19:38) was like, wow, you know, do you know me? You know, have you talked to my professors? I mean, you just met me. I'm pretty sure this was