1183: Using Body Language to Strengthen Likability and Relationships with Joe Navarro
How to Be Awesome at Your Job
Former FBI agent Joe Navarro shares expert insights on using nonverbal communication to build stronger professional and personal relationshi
Key takeaways
- Joe Navarro used pupil constriction and squinting to identify co-conspirators in a Cold War nuclear code theft case.
- The Harvard Grant Study indicates that the ability to connect with others is a better predictor of business success than IQ.
Main topics
- Nonverbal communication science
- FBI counterintelligence anecdotes
Notable quotes
Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and it wastes your time.
Conclusion
Mastering subtle physical cues can transform human interaction by fost
Transcript preview
Speaker 2 (0:09) There are immediate benefits to being present. And we haven't even begun to study how our body chemistry influences each other. We now have research, and it's solid research, where the amount of stress that we carry on ourselves, right, in the form of chemistry, will actually influence other people around us. Speaker 2 (0:39) Just an inch or an inch and a half can make the difference between we're going to have a long, comfortable conversation or one where I feel my spatial boundaries are being violated. And that's how sensitive we as a species are to our spatial needs. Speaker 1 (1:08) That's Joe Navarro. For 25 years, Joe has served as FBI agent in counterintelligence and counterterrorism. Now, he's a globally recognized expert on nonverbal communication and the best-selling author of many books on the topic. Today, he's here to share some wisdom from his latest called Mastering Connections, Build Stronger Relationships with the Science of Body Language. And because we are talking about body language and we have a luminary... on the subject, Joe Navarro himself, it felt criminal to not include full episode video on this one. And so we've done so. If you want to check out this episode on YouTube, you will find the full video so you can actually see the things that we're illustrating here. But if you are just driving and cruising, listen, enjoy, and maybe drop by to catch the video next time. And let me know, Pete at AwesomeAtYourJob.com, how much you are into video in general versus are you like, nah, dude, I just like doing this while I'm doing something else. Thank you very much. It would be great to hear that feedback. So you'll learn one, the small gestures that greatly impact your likability. Two, how to maintain appropriate distance and eye contact. And three, the one expression. or non-expression, really, to avoid at all costs. And if you want a quick summary write-up of the actionable wisdom that we share here, I recommend you mosey on over to awesomeatyourjob.com and sign up for the free Gold Nugget email newsletter. I'm Pete McIdis. This is How To Be Awesome At Your Job. And now, here's Joe. Speaker 1 (2:44) Jill, welcome back. Good to be back. Good to see you. Yes, you too. Well, I'd love it if you could kick us off with a high-stakes story where body language played a key role. Well, how about one where Speaker 2 (3:02) nuclear go-codes were missing and we had to find who Speaker 1 (3:07) was the culprit? That sounds almost... too good to be real, like a Jack Bauer style. Unfortunately, it was real. Unfortunately, Speaker 2 (3:17) seven nations were imperiled by this. This is during the Cold War period. And we come to find out that all this secret material is missing. The U.S. Army does a great job, narrows it down to one area. And one individual that was involved, they finally arrest him. But we come to find out he had a co-conspirator. And that co-conspirator, even though he agreed to talk to me, I was an FBI agent at the time, said, no, I'm not sure I want to get anybody else in trouble. So I said, you know, fair enough. So we got the army to give us a list. of everybody that would have had access to the codes. And then on a three by five card, we put the names of each individual. And then I just said, look, I don't want to know if they're involved. I just want to know if you know them and did you like them? And so I held the card up. And then I watched his eyes. And of course, I hadn't written any books on the subject, so he didn't know what I would be looking for. But on two cards, his eyes squinted, and I was sitting about the distance between here and the screen, and his pupils constricted. And just based on that, we requested that these two... people be interviewed that we didn't know were in any way connected. And as it turns out, they both confessed. So there. That happened in 1990, and it's in the court filings. And one of them went to jail for 36 years. So true story. And it was all based on Speaker 1 (5:14) body language. Well, Joe, you've really raised the bar for every guest ever. Would I ask a question about a story? It's like, if there's not nuclear launch codes and decades in prison at stake, then I'm going to have to move on. Yeah, pretty Speaker 2 (5:33) much. Look, I always tell people it was luck. I happened to be at the right place at the right time. And I was that weird kid who all my friends in high school were playing with baseball cards and exchanging baseball cards. I was writing down things that I observed with body language and it paid off years later. So, yeah. Speaker 1 (5:57) Okay. Well, it is, it can continue to pay off your latest book. It's called Mastering Connections, Build Stronger Relationships with the Science of Body Language. That sounds real nice because most of us will not be in the position of interrogating someone in a legal matter, but I think all of us. want stronger relationships. Can you tell us just how much of an impact can this body language knowledge make in having stronger relationships? I think what the first thing we have to Speaker 2 (6:29) realize is the mistaken assumption that texting and writing and direct messages is connecting. All that is is signaling. Connections have an evolutionary perspective. We evolved to communicate first and foremost non-verbally. Our first language is non-verbal. That touching between the child and the mother in traditional societies, even the smell begins to shape and how often we touch and how we look at each other begins to shape that connection. And in modern society, we tend to think, oh, well, you know, I sent him an email message or a text message. And then we see the high amount of individuals that feel lonely, feel depressed, the extraordinary number. I saw a number the other day that young people entering universities as high as 36 % of them, which is an astounding number. feel depressed or anxious and so forth. And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that we're not connecting the way that we should be. And if we're going to connect, then we should do it the right way, which to a great degree has to do with how far we stand with each other. How do we look? Do we stare at each other or do we gaze? How often do we touch each other on the arm and so forth? I just, three days ago, four days ago, I had to attend the funeral. And once again, it was a revelation of there's not much you can say, but how revert back to that, our first language, which is, you know, arm around each other, hugs, holding each other's hands, big men weeping in each other's arms. Very tactile. And it's just a reminder that this is our first language and it's the way we show love and empathy and everything else. Speaker 1 (8:43) Yeah, that is, that's powerful. And I think that's a great reminder that texting doesn't get it done in terms of our relational biochemical. Speaker 1 (9:03) bodily beings for getting the connecting stuff happening. Speaker 2 (9:07) You're exactly right. I mean, we are mostly chemistry. And one way to look at it is texting. It's immediate. You can signal very quickly and so forth. But how often we ask, well, what did you mean by that? We have to include an emoji. We have to do this and that. And I think to a great extent where oxytocin is released when we are in each other's presence and we feel comfortable and there's touch and there's kindness in how we look at each other versus dopamine, which, oh, I got the message. Oh, this is great. And then you have that little dopamine high. But then we see people in a clinical setting just crash. And so they're constantly looking for the next dopamine high, which with algorithms now, you can be fed for hours, constant little hits where maybe you interact and so forth. But it never achieves what oxytocin does, which is this profound feeling of contentment. Speaker 1 (10:18) and joy and happiness and trust. So just so that we are on the same page with regard to this oxytocin and connecting stuff. Speaker 1 (10:29) Texting, instant messaging won't do it. Will live video exchanges do it? Or is it strictly an in-person kind of a phenomenon? Well, that's a profound question, Speaker 2 (10:42) Pete. I think virtual environment can do a lot. And it does. And almost 90 % or maybe more