'Oppenheimer' With Sean Fennessey | Nolan Revisited

House of R

Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin welcome guest Sean Fennessey for a deep dive into Christopher Nolan's 'Oppenheimer,' discussing the film's themes, personal

Key takeaways

• The film is framed as a modern-day 'Odysseus' story—where the protagonist cannot return home after changing the world irrevocably.

Main topics

• Christopher Nolan's cinematic style in 'Oppenheimer'
• The moral and emotional burden of scientific innovation

Notable quotes

'You can't go home again'—a recurring theme in both 'Oppenheimer' and Nolan's other films like 'The Dark Knight'.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with heartfelt appreciation for Sean Fennessey's insights, reflections

Transcript preview

Speaker 5 (0:04) Hello, welcome back to House of Art. I'm Joyda Robinson. That's the beautiful, luminous Malia Rubin joining us today. It is the man, the icon himself, the atomic bomb of cinematic discourse, Sean Fennessey. Thank Speaker 3 (0:18) you. Thank you for having me. Speaker 5 (0:19) Oh my gosh. Thank you for being here for our... Long-awaited, out-of-order, Oppenheimer podcast. Meta, non-linear storytelling here on House of R. Speaker 3 (0:27) Yes, this has been much like the launch of the bomb, rescheduled at least three times, but we're going to make it happen today. Yeah, Speaker 5 (0:33) due to rain and a number of other things. Okay, so we are going to get to a lengthy, healthy discussion and close our Nolan Rewatch. Speaker 1 (0:45) The Speaker 2 (0:46) city moves fast, but your vibe, that's different. Sharper, smoother, more alive. Speaker 1 (0:57) The new Speaker 2 (1:01) Honda City isn't just made to drive, it's made to feel. The new Honda City, all new vibe. Speaker 5 (1:23) All Speaker 4 (1:23) right, program reminders. What do we want to tell folks about what's coming up? Well, we're continuing to cover Lanterns, a show that we're quite enjoying. So those pods will be dropping on Mondays, those deep dives. You picked Lanterns in the house of our hype draft. Good for you. Yeah. Watch Speaker 3 (1:35) the premiere. Enjoyed Speaker 4 (1:37) it. Speaker 3 (1:37) Didn't see episode two. Into it. I will continue to watch it. Have Speaker 4 (1:40) you ever seen a more handsome person than Hal Jordan in specifically HBO's Lanterns? I Speaker 3 (1:47) mean, I know he's a longtime paramour of yours. Speaker 3 (1:51) I like the man. I think he's handsome. I aspire to such rugged but unfussy masculinity. I'll never quite get there, but it'd be nice if I could just put on a suede jacket. I Speaker 5 (2:03) kind of like your fussy masculinity. Speaker 3 (2:04) Thank you. Many people are calling it that. Put Party to the Market Speaker 5 (2:08) on it. It's pretty good. Speaker 4 (2:10) In addition to Lanterns, next week, I believe, the second podcast is Buffy. Season five, part one. At long last, we will be resuming our Buffy rewatch. So that's a thrill. That's exciting. Can't wait for that. I've seen Full for Love, so my life is forever altered. Speaker 5 (2:26) We did do our look ahead for the rest of the year at the live show in Baltimore. And there's a lot of great stuff coming. Wildwood made it very high on my hype list for this fall. Speaker 3 (2:38) I was invited to a screening and I dropped your name and I said, Joanna Robinson will need to see this film with me. They said, great. I'll let you know about that after the recording. Speaker 5 (2:46) Okay. I like that. Sean? Speaker 3 (2:49) Yes. Wait, hold on. We're not going to blow past our trip to Baltimore. I was about Speaker 5 (2:53) to throw to you. So, you know, I've not spoken Speaker 3 (2:55) to either of you since you traversed Speaker 2 (2:58) the Speaker 3 (2:58) baseball stadium and one of you threw a first pitch. Yes, you did. And I left you an Instagram comment, but we're Speaker 2 (3:04) going Speaker 3 (3:04) to talk about it in person. Is Speaker 4 (3:06) that what we've Speaker 3 (3:06) come to? Speaker 4 (3:06) We've Speaker 3 (3:06) known Speaker 4 (3:06) each Speaker 2 (3:07) other for Speaker 4 (3:07) 13 years. God damn it. I left you an Instagram comment. I Speaker 3 (3:11) knew we would be face to face. And that's how I want to have this conversation. Okay. Tell me. Okay. I've still only seen the first pitch. Speaker 4 (3:17) Yeah. Okay. From Speaker 3 (3:18) the angle that the Orioles shared on Instagram. Oh, Speaker 4 (3:21) yeah. Sure. Speaker 3 (3:21) Which is to say, I did not see home plate. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So how did it go? What happened? And you know Speaker 5 (3:26) what they told us is they don't usually shoot how it connects. Just to. keep people guessing. That's the standard. I think that was edited by Speaker 4 (3:34) our beloved Jomie, I think. Oh, Speaker 5 (3:36) okay. Speaker 4 (3:37) With taste and care. Unlike Danny Heifetz who just posted the whole thing on his Instagram. Speaker 5 (3:42) Is that Speaker 3 (3:42) true? Speaker 4 (3:43) Yes. You can see Speaker 5 (3:44) the Heifetz Speaker 4 (3:44) cut. Heifetz was an angel throughout the whole night and then I was like, damn man, you really put me on blast here. You know, the experience was wonderful. The pitch itself, it was, it will be better next time when I'm invited back to do it again. When would Speaker 3 (3:58) that be? Speaker 4 (3:59) Next year. We're campaign partners. An Speaker 3 (4:01) annual tradition. Speaker 4 (4:02) House of Our Night at Oriole Park at Camden Yards, an annual tradition. We'll see if anybody on the receiving end of that is interested. They nodded enthusiastically Speaker 5 (4:09) when we mentioned Speaker 4 (4:09) it. I agree. I think that was them being like, go home. There was Speaker 5 (4:12) passion Speaker 4 (4:12) in the room Speaker 5 (4:13) in real time. Yeah. Speaker 4 (4:14) I spent, you know, we like to prep here at the podcast. So I would not say that I prepped the way I wanted to, which would have been every day for six months. I feel if I had done that, I would have been really dialed in exactly where I needed to be. Because as you know, it's not just about building up arm strength. It's about mechanics, consistency. That's absolutely right. Release Speaker 3 (4:29) point, yeah. Speaker 4 (4:31) Started to practice just like a couple, like a week and a half, couple weeks before. And it was just enough time to tell me. I had left enough time for it. And when I would, Adam went to the park with me. It was lovely. It was actually really fun. What park did Speaker 3 (4:47) you Speaker 4 (4:47) go to? I'm not going to reveal the park nearest to my home on a public podcast. Okay, sorry. Speaker 3 (4:52) You know, I've got secrets to keep. I didn't realize you were such a star. I know you're throwing out first pitches, but jeez. I'll Speaker 4 (4:55) wait until I post the behind-the Speaker 3 (4:55) -scenes Speaker 4 (4:56) photos on Instagram and then people can very easily identify it if they care. Right next to your comments. We Speaker 3 (5:00) should create a ringer-esque gawker stalker, but just for parks. Speaker 4 (5:05) It's a good idea. It's a good idea because we're all famously out and about. Well, Speaker 3 (5:08) those of us with children have to go all the time, unfortunately. Please Speaker 5 (5:12) put your children on a gawker stalker. Sean and Bill and I learned on the Speaker 4 (5:16) About Last Night rewatchables just mere days ago that there is apparently a robust, thriving, booming, ringer, intramural sports experience that none of us have been invited to participate in. They've had a basketball team, a soccer team. Have you been invited to play? Speaker 3 (5:31) No. Why would anybody invite me? I'm not fun. Why would anybody invite me to do anything? I Speaker 4 (5:34) thought you were going to Speaker 5 (5:35) say you're not athletic. Thank Speaker 3 (5:36) you, Joe. Speaker 5 (5:36) Yeah. But I don't know what the fussy masculinity is, the energy you want to bring to intramural sports. I think you'd be great. Well, Speaker 3 (5:40) for years, I did play on the intramural basketball team here at the Ringer, and then I retired. I remember the back pain, the lower back pain. It was very hard on my body. That was a tough moment. Playing with 25-year-olds was a mistake. Speaker 4 (5:49) My back Speaker 3 (5:49) also Speaker 4 (5:49) hurts. But that's just also because I'm getting old. So the quick answer to the how did the actual pitch go? I was very worried as Joe and all of the bad babies who joined us at this wonderful event at Oriole Park at Camden Yards because we did the pregame live pod at the warehouse. Yes. Incredible experience. We went down on the field. We got to take pictures. Incredible experience. Did the pitch. Incredible experience. You know Steve Beslow, my dear friend. Yes. I could hear the bad babies cheering. I knew Adam had sort of vowed to take my parents into a place where they would be able to see both the field and the Jumbotron. And Joe was right there. in the field, but I wasn't expecting, I turned around and my beloved Steve, one of my best friends in the world, was just, had made his way down behind home plate and was right there. And I got all weepy and it was just very like wonderful and emotional and surreal and great. Got out there. I had been really nervous in the run-up because every time Adam and I went to practice, the first throw, no matter how many times we did it, not enough times, but no matter how many times, always a spike 10 feet in front of me to the left every time. Cause I was trying for extra distance and would, you know, Speaker 3 (6:45) so Speaker 4 (6:46) I'm like, all right. don't spike the ball. Hold the room at the live pot. And you get a couple warm-up throws in, you're fine, but the first throw, always a mess. I overcompensated. Released early because I was so anxious about holding late, but I cleared the, I had the distance to reach the plate. And that was, that to me was the most important thing. Didn't Speaker 5 (7:04) spike it, didn't Speaker 4 (7:05) come up short, but wide right. Wide right. Speaker 3 (7:07) Okay. So, if it were a right-handed hitter, it Speaker 4 (7:11) would have been behind him and they would have thought that I, like, tried to hit him in the spine, but. but missed. Speaker 3 (7:16) Okay. Speaker 4 (7:18) She Speaker 5 (7:18) did Speaker 4 (7:18) connect on all of her Speaker 5 (7:19) warm-up throws. I did. I requested to warm Speaker 4 (7:22) up on the sideline before. Speaker 5 (7:23) I saw that. I don't want to say this then, but I had a sinking feeling because you know the rule of show business is if your dress rehearsal is great, the action is really bad. And I was like, oh no, she's hitting all of Speaker 4 (7:34) these. It Speaker 5 (7:34) was close enough Speaker 4 (7:35) to it. You got to try to get the arm a little limber. It was a very humid day. There were storms. There was a Speaker 3 (7:39) tornado warning. Were Speaker 5 (7:40) you Speaker 3 (7:40) nervous for her beforehand? Speaker 5 (7:41) No, I was just excited for her because Mallory had laid enough track that she was like, Speaker 3 (7:47) well, Speaker 5 (7:47) Mallory Speaker 3 (7:47) was Speaker 5 (7:47) just sort of like, Speaker 4 (7:49) she was like, Speaker 5 (7:49) I'm just going to spike it. Like, she was really prepared to just spike it into the dirt. The spike Speaker 4 (7:53) felt to me like a guarantee. Speaker 5 (7:55) So Speaker 4 (7:55) she wasn't like Speaker 5 (7:55) nervous about whether or not she was going to make it. She had like come up with a whole routine of what she was going to do. Shook off Speaker 4 (8:00) the catcher twice. Yeah. Then, you know, did her little challenge. I saw you immediately called for ABS. She plotted that. I saw that. Did your hop over the foul line. Did Speaker 5 (8:09) the hop Speaker 4 (8:09) over the thanks. Yeah. A CR approved bit, which is how I knew it was worth trying. So Speaker 5 (8:13) I Speaker 4 (8:13) knew Speaker 5 (8:14) she Speaker 2 (8:14) had Speaker 4 (8:14) a whole routine Speaker 5 (8:15) plan and I was just, I just got emotional. You did. It was incredibly sweet. She Speaker 4 (8:18) was like walked out there. Yeah. And then I walked into your arms. And Speaker 5 (8:22) they like said her name over the announcer and you could see her on the jumbotron. It was just like my high school. It was really fun. Speaker 4 (8:28) Oh, wow. It was great. It Speaker 5 (8:29) was really sweet. It Speaker 4 (8:30) was an honor. And Joby and I were just Speaker 5 (8:32) sitting there and I just started crying. It was really, really sweet. It was Speaker 4 (8:35) really wonderful. It was a very cool day for my family. They were super hyped. My dad was just like over the moon. Also, Jo got to meet my family. She got to meet some of my best friends. It was amazing. And then because people who had bought tickets, this was a really cool event. People who had bought tickets to the live show, we all had like a dedicated section in center field. So we spent the whole game meeting the listeners, meeting the viewers and hanging out with them. You know, I didn't see a pitch of the game. The Orioles got their asses kicked lamentably by the Yankees. However, they bounced back and then took the next couple from the race. So. Oh, did they? Yeah, they did. Speaker 3 (9:04) Why didn't you see it at Pitch of the Game? Because we were just hanging with the bad babies the whole time. Speaker 4 (9:08) We were just, we were in a throng of the bad baby community out in the wild. It's a wonderful thing to get to experience. And then people are making line friends. They're meeting each other. It's like fun for us to meet them, but fun to watch them meet each other. You know, I mean, it's just a delight. It's great. It was a wonderful experience. And we're looking forward to House of Our Night at Camden Yards in 2027. And Speaker 3 (9:27) you were interviewed by Kevin Brown. Speaker 4 (9:29) Yeah. So. And he hopped on the podcast too. No kidding. He hopped on at the very end. It sounded like Speaker 3 (9:34) he maybe he fangirled out a little bit. Well, Kevin is a Speaker 4 (9:36) big fan of The Ringer. He's a fan of House of R. He's a Sean Fennessey and Big Speaker 3 (9:41) Pig fan. Speaker 4 (9:41) He's Speaker 3 (9:41) a Speaker 4 (9:41) big, big super fan. Nice. And so while I would consider Kevin Speaker 3 (9:44) He's great. Speaker 4 (9:44) He's Speaker 3 (9:45) super Speaker 4 (9:45) talented. He's amazing. While I would consider Kevin an actual genuine friend, like one of my dear friends, someone I adore. You know, I know that our friendship is just a, it's just a plot to get to you eventually. And I'm okay with it. I'm available. His dream in life is to participate in a big picture movie draft. Speaker 2 (10:01) Wow. His Speaker 4 (10:02) dream in life. Baltimore movies, are there enough? Speaker 3 (10:06) You know, I've been plotting a baseball movie draft. The Speaker 4 (10:08) other Hairspray? Let's do it. Speaker 5 (10:10) I'm inviting myself as Speaker 3 (10:11) well. Well, you were on the list. You were on the invitation list. Hold arm Speaker 4 (10:14) number one. Me too. Like number one on our baseball movie. Well, now that you're all in. I do love baseball Speaker 5 (10:19) movies. Speaker 4 (10:19) Are you adopting the Speaker 3 (10:20) Orioles? Have you considered that? Speaker 4 (10:21) She has a Speaker 5 (10:22) custom jersey now. I do. Oh, I think I saw that. Here's my hope is that if we make this an annual tradition, we get to start collecting because they put 26 on the back Speaker 4 (10:29) for the year. Then we Speaker 5 (10:31) get Speaker 4 (10:31) 27, 28. Exactly. We need to be invited on a City Connect night so that we can get the custom City Connects. The O's City Connect this year. I'm not Speaker 3 (10:38) familiar with them, but I reject City Connect on the premise. I'm just not a fan. Well, Speaker 4 (10:42) I Speaker 3 (10:42) mean, I've seen Speaker 4 (10:42) the Met City Connect, so I bet. Speaker 3 (10:43) They're pretty rough. Let Speaker 4 (10:44) me ask you. you this. Why didn't you respond to my text where I sent you Pete Alonzo's player weekend bat, which had a Maryland crab, blue crab, and it was all about the Eastern Shore and being just being in love with Maryland and Baltimore and this new community. I sent it to you. You did not reply. Speaker 3 (11:00) Well, my enthusiasm for your experience only extends so far. I'm happy you had this wonderful day that Speaker 4 (11:05) you Speaker 3 (11:05) got to experience it with Joanna, that your family got to be there. Speaker 4 (11:09) Pete Speaker 3 (11:09) Alonzo was a member of my family for many years. That's right. Speaker 5 (11:12) A couple people in Mets gear. And I was like, why are you wearing Mets gear? And then I heard about the whole Pete thing. I Speaker 1 (11:18) said Speaker 5 (11:18) Pete. Yeah. I Speaker 3 (11:19) mean, it's Speaker 1 (11:19) not Speaker 3 (11:19) Pete's fault. No. He's wonderful. He should have been retained. No, Speaker 4 (11:22) I just Speaker 3 (11:22) heard Speaker 5 (11:22) that it might be a... A note of sensitivity. Speaker 4 (11:25) Mets fans are sad. I do feel bad for Mets fans. I feel happy to have Pete in my life. He's wonderful and he has 30 home runs. It's great. I mean, the main point is that... That's Speaker 1 (11:32) what Speaker 3 (11:32) he does every year. The main point Speaker 4 (11:33) is that I understood your Instagram comment when you left it. Speaker 5 (11:37) There you go. Speaker 4 (11:37) Yeah. I know. Speaker 3 (11:38) Now you're in the loop on baseball lore. He did not Speaker 4 (11:40) embrace me to answer your Instagram question, but he's embraced the city of Baltimore and the state of Maryland. And then his wife threw out the pitch a couple days later. No kidding. He caught that pitch. She Speaker 3 (11:48) seems like a nice gal too. What's her name? Wonderful family. Kelsey? Speaker 4 (11:51) I think that's something like that. Speaker 5 (11:52) Remember Speaker 3 (11:53) your Speaker 5 (11:53) family, but you don't know the wife? Oh, man. Great stuff. Speaking of great men and their wives that are also here, let's talk about Oppenheimer. Spoiler for history, I suppose. Indeed. This is the last of our Nolan movies, so all Nolan movies are on the table, including The Odyssey, which we have all seen. I would say if we want to make reference to The Odyssey and you haven't seen The Odyssey yet, you should know the story of The Odyssey, but we might talk about it. Speaker 5 (12:19) This film was directed and written by Christopher Nolan, came out July 21st, 2023. Budget, $100 million. Worldwide box office, $976.7 million. Nearly a billion dollars. An incredible, outrageous achievement. A pile of Oscars. Just the film of that year, undoubtedly. Speaker 3 (12:41) She said with some resignation. Speaker 5 (12:43) No, you know what? And I told you this already. Every time I rewatch this movie, I like it more. Speaker 3 (12:48) It's nice to hear. Speaker 5 (12:49) You say it like I'm doing it for you. Speaker 4 (12:52) That's what you said last time. I'm on this Speaker 3 (12:54) movie's corner. You know, I'm a fan. Speaker 4 (12:56) I'm a big fan. When will you show the same grace to Inception, you know? Speaker 3 (13:00) I've certainly given it a lot of looks. Speaker 4 (13:02) Yeah. Speaker 3 (13:03) I've tried to evolve my thoughts. Speaker 5 (13:06) Because we were supposed to do this a while ago, I did all my prep then, and then I rewatched it. a couple times the last two days also to remind myself because my memory is bad. And again, every single time I rewatch it, I admire it more. I think there is a lot, there's obviously so much going on here, but it is, it's an undeniable achievement and it is so rich with ideas and, you know. like intellectually dense that every time I watch it, I discover something else. And every time I like read an in-depth essay about it, I enjoy that experience. But I think I do still admire it more than I love it because I don't feel sort of like emotionally moved by it. I feel intellectually stimulated by it and there's nothing wrong with that, but that's just sort of where I land with it. Sean Fantasy, tell me about your love of Oppenheimer. Speaker 3 (13:59) I think that's a completely reasonable opinion and I wouldn't want to take it away from anybody. I don't... Speaker 5 (14:05) Well, you can't. I'm Speaker 3 (14:07) not... Well, I mean, don't dare me. I think... Speaker 4 (14:12) They'll listen to a prophet. Speaker 3 (14:13) It's interesting that you frame it that way because I don't know that I really have thought about the film in that dynamic. Though that's a very common dynamic that people have with movies, which is sort of like, did this movie work for me personally on an emotional level? And also, is it successful in what it is attempting to try to do? I don't find Chris Nolan to be a terribly emotional filmmaker. I would say The Odyssey is a pretty big breakthrough in that respect for me with his movies. I find him to be extremely structurally interesting. I think he's capable of great depth and imagination. But I find a lot of the emotional mechanics of his movies to be like a little tight and British. And so this movie to me is a kind of a fascinating breakthrough in that. I feel like he's really trying to reckon with something that has recurred in all of his movies. And he kind of breaks through on that thing, which is this idea of sort of like, you know, we spent so much time figuring out if we could, we didn't think to ask if we should. And that's a hard. line through all the movies. You know, it's, you know, the Speaker 5 (15:15) prestige, that's what it's about. Speaker 2 (15:17) The Speaker 5 (15:17) prestige is Speaker 3 (15:17) about that. I mean, following is about that. You know, this guy who sort of stumbles into a world of intrigue and doesn't really think about the consequences of that. Memento is about the inability to see what the consequences of your actions are because of something that is sort of blocking your ability to see it. Speaker 4 (15:32) Yeah. Insomnia, should we get room darkening shades? Speaker 3 (15:35) Exactly. All of these, but specifically, like, I can't sleep. You know, I'm not able to sleep. And it is causing my mind to worry. Like Speaker 5 (15:44) digging, you know, you quoted Jurassic Park, love to see it. Digging too greedily and too deep. That's like what a lot of this stuff is about. Mallory, what was your journey through these rewatches of Oppenheimer? And anything you want to weigh in on that sort of like emotional versus, we've talked about this, but like the chilliness of Nolan for some people. Where do you land on that after this Oppenheimer revisitation? Speaker 4 (16:04) Yeah, I mean, you know, I love the... I love the filmography. I love Nolan's movies, as we've talked about now over the course of a year plus, which has been such a joy, you know, to go through slowly and non sequentially out of order all of his movies. And it's fun because it started very authentically with like the Batman Begins and Inception anniversaries last year. And there's the idea of like, you know, then we'll do the prestige because we want to. And should we keep going? And it has felt weirdly meta and apt, albeit genuinely unintentional to take them in this order and in this way. And I think, you know, Joe, this was maybe how we justified it to ourselves in real time, but it actually does feel kind of nice to look back at Oppenheimer. after the Odyssey, given what a massive achievement and culmination, you know, of so many of those core areas of emphasis, the focus and through lines across the entire filmography of the Odyssey felt like, and to then study Oppenheimer. You could have done this in an anticipatory fashion, but given the ending of the Odyssey in particular and how much of it is about legacy and guilt and shame and interrogating the great man idea that is so central to so much of Nolan's, you know, preoccupation in his work, this actually feels like a a nice way to do it and to look back. And also because it was the big awards, you know, breakthrough and Darling and the Odyssey until Dune 3 comes in and just, that's the only thing we're all talking about, you know? Feels like it has a chance to really dominate the discussion as well. You know, when- Speaker 5 (17:29) Not Speaker 4 (17:29) an Elsinore truther? There's still time. Okay. Give it time, who knows? Speaker 3 (17:34) I think I'll be seeing it pretty soon, I'll let you know. Speaker 4 (17:38) When we did our, so I didn't, I've said this before, but I didn't participate in real time at the theater in Barbenheimer and the Barbenheimer extravaganza. Halo had a surgery that weekend. We were watching him for like multiple weeks after that. By that time, I was like, I'll just watch this movie at home. So I actually never saw Oppenheimer in movie theaters, which is like not ideal, obviously. I Speaker 3 (17:57) think Speaker 4 (17:57) I saw it Speaker 3 (17:57) like four times. Yeah, Speaker 4 (17:58) yeah. But, you know, Speaker 3 (17:59) I, Speaker 4 (17:59) and now certainly I think in the last year, I've shifted a little bit out of my, we have a big TV and nice speakers and room darkening shades, like. I can watch movies comfortably at home and to, boy, it's really great to be back at the movie theater with my friends. You know, I think after the like 2020, 2021, 2022 anxiety has like abated a little bit. So I have not seen this movie in that setting. When I watched it for the first time, it was months into. not only the Barbenheimer like cultural zeitgeist animating moment of this real unique shared experience, but people talking about Oppenheimer like it was this incredible achievement. And I don't think that was the ideal way to go into seeing it. I quite, I admired it and respected it. And I think when I saw it the first time, I really appreciated and liked the first two hours, but was like pretty baffled by the third act relying and resting so heavily on the straws. trial, nothing about that opinion has changed, no matter how many times I've revisited it. I still find the balance of the film and how much of the focus. I understand the logic and rationale behind the choice. And I think that in terms of the portrait of inadequacy and the strivers compared to the people who actually achieve and like which of those things is. frankly more dangerous in terms of the impact it has on the world. I understand all of the reasons to structure the film that way and balance the story that way. It's just like not as interesting when you shift into that stretch at the end because the first two hours are so riveting and gobsmacking. Rewatching it multiple times this last year, I have found myself so swept up in the first two hours of it. Like I think the first two hours of this movie are among the great achievements in the Nolan filmography. Speaker 4 (19:46) When Joe and I did our rankings a few weeks ago, I had it at six. And the thing about the Nolan ranking, you're going through 13 movies, they're all good. They're all good to some extent. And through, for me, 10. I think through 10, I was like, I actually really like all of these movies. There's a degree of love for them. I would generally agree Speaker 3 (20:05) with that. I mean, you know, Dark Knight Rises has some flaws. Speaker 4 (20:08) Yeah, but it also has Bane, and he fucking rules. I love Speaker 3 (20:11) Bane. He fucking rules. It's funny, like the... This criticism that you just shared, which I think you share, and I know Amanda shares because she brings it up every time we talk about Oppenheimer on the third act, is one of those things where I'm like, for the big spectacle movies, we tend to hand wave a lot of the flaws where we're like, yeah, but this movie has Bane. It's a fun Batman movie. But for whatever reason, the hang up I think with Oppenheimer among some of its, if not detractors, people who have notes for it, it's a very similar kind of note that I think you could have for almost all of his movies, which is... Perceptionally, there is some kind of like structural flaw where he's like reached too far like he has done this incredible thing Well, Speaker 4 (20:50) you Speaker 3 (20:50) know, there's something to that I think you know that he's really interested in these really ambitious people that really reach for something beyond themselves much like Batman and So this is the rare case I think where maybe that hang-up doesn't bother me because I'm very very interested in the core idea that creates the friction between the three acts and the two story structures, between the straw structure and between the Oppenheimer structure. And that idea is very simple, which is you mentioned the idea of the striver and this idea of ambition, and there's two strains of ambition. One is for power and one is for ideas. And sometimes ideas start reaching towards power. And whenever power starts reaching towards ideas, that's when we get a mess of a world. And he seemed to be genuinely interested in the mess of the world, like kind of what happened. That seemed to animate his interest in telling the story. I just love that idea. I think that's pretty sophisticated. And maybe it doesn't make the movie as fun in the final hour, but I thought it was pretty deep. Speaker 5 (21:41) No, absolutely. I think it's incredibly deep. You know, his most repeated inspiration that I saw was Amadeus, obviously, one of my favorite movies of all time, and a structure that always works for me. And Prestige also has a lot of Amadeus DNA in it, but it is like a more... evenly balanced. And Amadeus, it is in many ways a Salieri movie, actually. And this, in sort of chasing that Amadeus energy, I think the straw stuff is so much weaker in a way that makes it feel unbalanced. I also, this is just like not my favorite Downey performance. And also, unfortunately for my guy, Alden Ehrenreich, he is just saddled with a lot of just saying the thing. One of your biggest critiques of Inception, right? Which is just sort of like... You know, when we try to compliment Tenet, we like to say, you know, he said, just like, you know, just feel it. Don't try to understand it. Right. And so when he is making his sort of like and this is one of the first things you said when you came out of the Odyssey, where you're talking about the rapid edits and cuts in the Odyssey, which is, of course, here as well, this sort of like montage approach. Speaker 5 (22:51) impressionistic, Eisenstein-esque, like, approach to storytelling. And it works so well. And then you just sort of, sort of, like, grinds to a halt for me a bit when Alden Ehrenreich has to say, like, well, so it was you. You know, like, he's Hercule Poirot in the drawing room trying to tell you who did the crime. And that's, that's, like, that's, like, the ideas that you outline, I think, are incredible. But the execution, and yeah, I can, I can forgive a flaw in a diamond, for sure. Speaker 3 (23:16) I think you're absolutely right. And I can't really quibble with it. I think the other major influence, which you guys have cited here too, is JFK. And that's really more the JFK strain, where JFK is this kind of wild frenzy of ideas. But whenever the film flashes to black and white, it's attempting to create this kind of heightened docudrama experience. And it's Speaker 2 (23:35) a Speaker 3 (23:35) borrowed style. And so he's attempting to fuse. this wild editing impressionistic style that you described, which I love. And I think this to me is the pinnacle of that. The first 40 minutes of this movie is so breathtaking. And I could tell within the first five minutes that I was going to fall in love with it. And seeing it, you know, it's so obnoxious, but seeing it on IMAX, on the big screen, and hearing Goranson's score immediately and the raindrops falling and him thinking about that and that moment when he's sort of thinking about... the mechanics of bomb building and throwing the glass and looking at the cubist paintings and his mind kind of turning around art and science together i felt like that was a huge step forward or he had like kind of like i said kind of cracked something but he also wanted to have this idea about america and so he's borrowing movies not just about mozart yeah but about presidential assassinations and so in this attempt to kind of create a stew He has a better handle on some styles than others. And Speaker 5 (24:32) I think this idea of creating a story about America is so successful when you get things like the Gary Oldman scene or what Matt Damon is doing this whole movie. All of that stuff really, really works for me. I do like the Alden Aaron Arx character's Speaker 4 (24:47) just called Senate Aid, which so for him to get the following the blonde treatment is Speaker 5 (24:52) pretty Speaker 4 (24:52) great. Speaker 5 (24:53) That says a lot. What do you think it is? We've been sort of... talking around this for a little bit, but like I've been really bumping on his sort of like what I'm calling his ingenue problem as we have discussed sort of the weaker elements of even the films we love, like say the Ariadne character in Inception, et cetera, et cetera. There is this sort of like type of character. I would say. I think Tom Holland is one of the weaker parts of the Odyssey. It does not have to be gender, but Alden Ehrenreich, I think, again, I love Alden, but the writing for him is really tough in this movie. And so do you have any thoughts about what it is about this archetype that is not very successful in Nolan films? Speaker 3 (25:34) Well, I mean, I think you could make the case that Penelope