‘Lanterns’ Episode 8 Deep Dive

House of R

Hosts Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin celebrate their five-year podcast anniversary while conducting a deep dive into the season finale of DC's Lanterns, titled "Dirt and Stars." They

Key takeaways

• Carrie Kelly (Kelly MacDonald) shoots Hal Jordan (Kyle Chandler), revealing her action stems from overwhelming fear and trauma rather than malice or villainy.
• John Stewart (Aaron Pierre) crafts a custom Kintsugi-inspired Green Lantern ring and recites a revised oath: "In brightest day and darkest night, I'll embrace my fear. I'll do what's right."

Main topics

• Lanterns season finale analysis
• John Stewart's new oath and custom ring

Notable quotes

"In brightest day and darkest night, I'll embrace my fear. I'll do what's right."

Conclusion

The episode delivers a deeply emotional and thematically rich conclusion that prioritizes

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) you Speaker 1 (0:05) Hello and welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, oh my gosh, I would let her get away with literal murder. It's Speaker 2 (0:12) Mallory Rubin. Joanna, if you could see the inside of my head, you'd never stop Speaker 1 (0:18) screaming. It's been five years and I still feel that way, you know, about you, about myself. Speaker 2 (0:23) Our five-year anniversary. On Speaker 1 (0:26) Sunday. Speaker 2 (0:26) That's right. So yesterday, when people are Speaker 1 (0:28) listening. Speaker 2 (0:29) That's right. Yeah, five years, half a decade together. Wow. That means we've known each other for, gosh, close to a decade. Yeah. More casually, Speaker 1 (0:37) but deeply and intimately for five years. Deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. Magical. We're going to talk more about our love for each other. If I were to blip out hologram style, I would like the last thing I say to be I love you. Speaker 2 (0:52) I love you. Speaker 1 (0:53) Too late for a spoiler Speaker 2 (0:54) warning. Spoiler warning. We're going to talk about Speaker 1 (0:55) Lantern's finale right after this. Speaker 1 (1:11) All right. If you just in case you missed it. Yes. We talked to Tom King about lanterns in general and the lanterns finale specifically and also about dip and apples and sex and everything we like to talk about. That's right. That is already in the feed. It's there. That went up. It dropped yesterday. Speaker 2 (1:27) Check Speaker 1 (1:27) it out. listen to it. Speaker 2 (1:29) Fantastic conversation and fantastic interview. It was so fun to hear from Tom about this season and just in general. Really a Speaker 1 (1:35) wonderful chat. One of Speaker 2 (1:36) my Speaker 1 (1:36) favorite things, and I've said this to you before, but it's our fifth year anniversary, so I'm just going to say it again. Whenever we do interviews and Mallory makes one of her just like beautiful, eloquent points and the person who we're interviewing just like has to mutter under their breath, wow, so well said, so brilliant. Speaker 2 (1:52) Which Tom King, an absolute legend in the realm of storytelling. Speaker 1 (1:57) did do to Mally Rubin inside of that interview. So you're going to want to check it out. You're making me blush. I Speaker 2 (2:01) will. Speaker 1 (2:01) But I have a Speaker 2 (2:02) sunburn. I Speaker 1 (2:02) can't tell. You're still glowing from Hawaii. I can't tell at all. Oh, God. Quick programming reminder. That's Speaker 2 (2:10) right. Speaker 1 (2:10) So we're wrapping up our time with DC this week. Then we'll be back. Clayface is coming. I Speaker 2 (2:15) mean, Speaker 1 (2:15) we're weeks away from Clayface. Can't Speaker 2 (2:16) wait. Speaker 1 (2:16) So we'll stay in the realm of DC. But Marvel also has something. And it's not just reheated nachos of Avengers Endgame. That's right. It is Vision Quest. Can't wait. We're so excited. So we're going to do a rewatch of WandaVision. Delightful. Agatha is still sort of banging around my brain. Agatha, we spent Speaker 2 (2:33) two and a half hours on every week together. And guess what? We had the time of our fucking lives. So if you're like, I want to listen to that, go do it. But we didn't get to pod about WandaVision together. It Speaker 1 (2:41) was Speaker 2 (2:41) before Speaker 1 (2:41) our time, which means it was over five years ago. That? I got to say, Speaker 2 (2:46) harrowing to confront. Speaker 1 (2:47) Yeah. Speaker 2 (2:48) Harrowing to confront how long ago WandaVision aired. That feels to me like it was yesterday. So if Speaker 1 (2:52) you can't remember WandaVision. That's right. We'll be talking about it in a special sort of catch-up episode. That's Speaker 2 (2:58) right. Speaker 1 (2:58) And then we're just diving into Vision Quest, a show that I have not seen a single second of other than the trailers, but I just really want it to be good. I want it to be good. I love Speaker 2 (3:07) this. Speaker 1 (3:08) You know, I usually like guard myself. And I'm so cynical. I really want it to be good. What if it's great? Speaker 2 (3:14) It needs to be not only because then we can all share a great Vision Quest show together and that would be wonderful, but because it's going to be crushing, a devastating blow for the Joe hype meter. Like you leaning into this enthusiasm, you've allowed yourself to be like, this can be great. And what if it isn't? What will happen? It's Speaker 1 (3:32) almost like spoiler warning for the Landers finale. You open yourself up to love something and then it gets you shot in the head. Something like that. Speaker 2 (3:39) Yeah. Hopefully that's not how it goes. A Speaker 1 (3:42) house-icle on a bench somewhere? Tough. Hopefully that's not how it goes. Okay. Spoilers for the lantern finale. Too late. Too late. We already did it. How can folks keep track of everything that we're doing, including, I mean, Wicker's coming. That's Speaker 2 (4:01) right. Speaker 1 (4:01) Well, I bet. Kumi. Speaker 2 (4:03) I bet it is. Wicker is Speaker 1 (4:04) Kumi. How Speaker 2 (4:05) many orgasms in Wicker? Let's set the over-under Speaker 1 (4:07) right now. Oh, God. And like Olivia Colman's a real shouter. So I'm excited to see. Speaker 1 (4:16) seen the favorite Speaker 2 (4:17) I know how it goes oh my god I fucking love that movie um what's coming up how can you we already told you how can you follow it thanks for asking here's what I'd recommend Speaker 2 (4:26) Follow the pod. Yeah. Follow House of R. Yeah. On Spotify. Yeah. Or wherever you get your podcasts. But here's the thing about following on Spotify. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify or the Ringerverse YouTube channel. That means, like, yeah, you could listen to Joanna talk about books. And you should. But you know what else you could do? You could watch her. bob like an apple in a sea of books surrounded by tomes. That was Speaker 1 (4:56) really fun. Speaker 2 (4:56) In this very studio. I really missed you. I missed you. I was crushing. I've decided, as you know, to make a change in my life where I'm like, vacation is good and it's something I'm going to do. So I'm not going to allow myself to feel bad about having taken one, but I was sad to miss that. But what a wonderful treat for the bad babies. Incredible stuff. Wonderful. Speaker 1 (5:12) Just delightful. And one of the most requested books that people wanted to hear about was Dungeon Crawler Carl, which they can hear you talk about. Soon. Where? Speaker 2 (5:22) Yeah, the Jeslinuk Book Club. I'll be joining Anthony now. Jeslinuk Book Club is on the Ringer Podcast Network. What a time to be alive. Just incredible. Delightful. Wow. Anthony was your guest for House of Reads. Delightful. And yeah, I'll be chatting with him about Carl. Speaker 1 (5:36) Princess Speaker 2 (5:37) Donut. Princess Donut, who is now in my life. I want to thank all the bad babies who said, you need to let Princess Donut into your life. You were right. Great stuff. So yeah, follow along. Follow the pod. And also, while you're at it, follow... at House of R Pod. Say it again. At House of R Pod. Perhaps the first time ever that I've said that correctly instead of saying out House of R Pod. On Instagram, TikTok, etc. Follow at Ringiverse, of course, as well. And, you know, see what fun stuff we're getting up to over on social. Who knows? While you're at it, send us your emails because the inbox is always open. HobbitsandDragons at gmail.com. Please do. I think that's it. Speaker 1 (6:17) I think that covers it. Hey, have we mentioned spoilers for the Lanterns finale? We're going to talk about everything. It's too late. Let's go now to our opening snapshot. Speaker 1 (6:34) Mallory, before we dive deep, let's keep it surface level. Let's do something superficial. Why not? Episode 8, Dirt and Stars. Directed by Alex Sakharov, who directed the previous episode. Talked about his storied history inside of television directing. Written by Murderer's Row. Tom King, have you heard of him? He's been on our podcast. David Lindelof, have you heard of him? He's been on our podcast. And Chris Mundy, have you heard of him? He's on the Midnight Boys. So all three have been here in the Ringiverse family. Molly Rubin. Talk to me about the finale. Speaker 2 (7:13) I really liked the finale. I thought that overall the season was, ooh, you heard the Baltimore there. Overall, overall, going down to the ocean on. I thought the season of TV was great. I just had a wonderful time covering the season. The finale was not my favorite episode of the season. I think the penultimate, episode seven, was just, I think for both of us, we agree, the peak. It was really exquisite and will stay with me. But the finale rooting itself in and orienting around conversation, character, emotionality, emotion, theme. Speaker 1 (7:47) That's our shit. Speaker 2 (7:49) Our shit, you know? And I think the fact that this was such an intimate and personal finale, it was not a string of set pieces and... big finale. Punching her way to an Speaker 1 (8:02) ending. It was so deeply human. No big, like, suit-up moment. No, like, none of that. And I don't, you know, like... Overall, people are loving Lanterns. That seems to be the prevailing reaction. But I do remember when the first couple trailers came out, people were like, hey, you're going to have some Speaker 2 (8:17) lanterning in your Lantern show? That's right. So Speaker 1 (8:20) I'm curious if people, you know, I agree with you. Like, this is my preference for a finale of this kind is to have these kind of conversations. See what the masses think. But, you know, I'm just curious if they were like, if they'll miss it at all. Or if they're like, that was so engrossing, I don't care. Or Speaker 2 (8:34) if Speaker 1 (8:34) they're like, hey, we wanted more constructs Speaker 2 (8:36) from Speaker 1 (8:36) our season of Lanterns, you know? So maybe so. I genuinely don't know. Yeah, I'll Speaker 2 (8:41) be Speaker 1 (8:41) curious to see that as well. But like, the reaction has been so high that I'm hoping. I also, episode seven was by far my favorite. I thought it was just like exquisite storytelling, just really, really good. I liked exactly what you're talking about in terms of like conversation, character, emotionality for the finale. There are some things that even though this finale did feel like it had space to breathe inside of conversations, thinking about like John and Carrie on the sidelines of the game, just sort of having that conversation, like Noah and John in the car having that conversation, like there was time to breathe, but they still felt like. I was missing a few things. Like we sped past a few sort of emotional beats, a few steps along the way. So I, you know, sometimes we talk about how greedy we are. Like I would have taken maybe another half hour inside of this episode to, to, to like be with Sinestro a little longer or like, you know, get some like Stewart family stuff. That's more than just montage, you know, just like some, some of the moments I was just like, I wanted even more. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:42) I think on that front. The other thing that I found myself thinking, not necessarily about time spent inside of this episode, but kind of in retrospect now across the season, because Noah, as we had really, I think, we and Lantern's viewers, you know, and Mass had begun to anticipate that this was going to be a very Noah-centric conclusion. I do wish that we had spent a little more time with Noah and specifically inside of the Carrie-Noah relationship, given, you know, how her... her feelings for her son lead to this big moment. It's ultimately her relationship with Noah is inextricable from what happens inside of her relationship with Hal. Speaker 1 (10:22) And I think it's so key since because this finale, there's a lot that happens for John and John is our main character so that is as it should be but there's a lot that happens for John in terms of like trusting his gut or you know, or just sort of like leading with his heart and all this other stuff that is really important but since The crux of this episode has to do with sort of like what will Noah choose or is Noah someone worth risking possible mass violence to protect the potential good nature inside of this boy? I would like to know him a bit better in order to feel those stakes. Yeah. And Speaker 2 (10:57) I think it certainly worked. I mean, I thought that the car ride with John and Noah was really great. That sequence in the conversation. I think that it worked quite well as a parallel to. Jon's journey and through the Jon lens. That stuff really landed. It would have just amplified it further if we had a deeper attachment to Noah and understanding of him. Obviously, the more we know him, the harder it is to hold the reveal for the finale. So that's the calculus always, obviously. That's Speaker 1 (11:24) kind Speaker 2 (11:24) of like what Speaker 1 (11:24) it felt like that they were just, I mean, we got, you know, we got a goodly amount of him, but like in one episode, basically. And I felt like a case of trying to hide the ball a bit deprived us of just a little bit more time. Yeah, Speaker 2 (11:36) I think that the... Hal Carey opening and the Hal-John conclusion were wonderful. And for people who have really grown invested in these characters over the course of this season of television specifically, just a really, really rich way to conclude the run. The other kind of big picture note on the finale is just that I was struck by, and I think this is to the... the finale's credit, ultimately into the season's credit, this, there's certainly open threads, you know? Noah's out there, right? So who knows what happens? Sinestro's hanging Speaker 1 (12:16) out Speaker 2 (12:17) on the fear toxin planet, worrying. John is now, he has forged his own oath and said these words and put on the ring, you know, just amazing. And he is now Earth's green lantern. He'll take the dirt. Guy's got the sky. According to him. Sure, Speaker 1 (12:35) yeah. But, I don't Speaker 2 (12:37) know Speaker 1 (12:37) if Guy agrees or that Liana will take that lying down. Yeah, Guy, Speaker 2 (12:42) it's code. Incredible, hysterical. Guy, you are. That was just wonderful. This finale was very focused on concluding this season of television. It was very contained, ultimately. It strands for the future, but it holds up as a season of TV that is its own thing, which is satisfying. Speaker 1 (13:01) I don't think we're going back to Rushville. ever. I'd be surprised if we saw Carrie or Billy again. We might, you know, like, I think if Noah, here's what I'll say. I was watching this finale. I liked it. I think if Noah had leapt off the screen even more, there could be a potentiality for, like, future Noah stuff. I'm not sure that that's the sort of impression that that character made where we're like, we have to know more about Noah and his Huskers career and whether or not, like, the Manhunter will emerge, et cetera, et cetera. I will be Speaker 2 (13:31) tracking Noah Macon's Heisman campaign. Let me say it now. I'm invested. I'll be tracking his draft stock. I want to know where McShay and Mensch have him on the big board. I'm invested. Speaker 1 (13:41) Remember when, I have no idea what that means. Remember when Tom King made a football reference and I understood it? Very Speaker 2 (13:47) special moment. If we hadn't sold you already on the interview, there you go. What more do you need to hear? I got it. She really did. Sports show is thriving right now. It's true. Speaker 1 (13:56) I did go to a Valkyries game. I would like to go watch the playoff game in the bar. Did you have a great time? I had a great time. Incredible local lesbian bar. The bartender bought me a tequila soda. It was delicious and expensive. Thank you so much for that. I had a great time. And then Survivor was on after. Oh, my gosh. Speaker 2 (14:15) What a night. Speaker 1 (14:16) But the Valkyries lost. And I was just like, this is part of it. This is part of a burgeoning fandom. She gets it. As you emotionally invest and you're there for the sorrow as well as the joy. The Speaker 2 (14:25) pain of suffering through the defeat Speaker 1 (14:28) makes Speaker 2 (14:29) it all the richer and more delicious when for just a moment you taste glory. Ultimately, for most sports fans, the balance is tough. You don't get to feel the joy a lot. Speaker 1 (14:40) We're recording this to take you behind the curtain on a Friday afternoon. There is another Valkyries game tonight, so we'll see how they do. Start posting some Instagram real video reactions. I will be watching. I don't know if I'll be posting my reactions, but I will be watching. We'll Speaker 2 (14:54) see. Speaker 1 (14:55) Heartbreak felt great in the lesbian bar. I'll tell you that much right now. Let's go Speaker 2 (15:00) now Speaker 1 (15:00) to our deep dive. Speaker 1 (15:08) You brought Schlitz? Speaker 2 (15:10) This was just all very important and special. Speaker 1 (15:12) This is really good. No, Speaker 2 (15:13) you have been Speaker 1 (15:14) number one booster. The Buddy Garrity of the Carrie-Hal relationship. Speaker 1 (15:24) So I was thinking about you a lot. Thank you. But I was thinking about myself as well because I thought this was really, really good. But it's like all of this is here. I mean, going to the finale, when we discussed last week our theories, we were talking about, no, we were talking about Billy. I was like, Billy and the dip. Did he do it? Turns out Jason Ritter's just here. Look handsome in Speaker 2 (15:45) a Speaker 1 (15:45) mustache. You know what? There are worse things to be. Exactly. Worse gigs out there, certainly. Carry high on our suspect list. Yeah. This whole thing, this whole flashback, Speaker 2 (15:56) as Speaker 1 (15:57) told to us by Sinestro, well changed to a chair. Incredible. Interesting to think about. Yeah. This whole flashback is here to be great and also to like twist the knife and make it all the more painful for when she kills him later. Knowing that, that like part of the point of this sequence is to make what happens later in the episode all the more painful. Yeah. Does that change how you experience it on the rewatch? Speaker 2 (16:21) Hmm. Um. I did find rewatching this episode to be a real exercise in anguish, but in a way I enjoy. You know, I like to feel sad. I like to luxuriate in the tragedy. I do. I mean, I think, you know, we'll go beat by beat through all these opening 11-ish minutes and all the things we see and witness and, you know, a glimpse of what... briefly was and could have been and how sad it is to how kind of much joy and gratitude we can feel for the fact that they experienced that together at all. But then, of course, the fact that it's even more devastating that it was ripped away. I do want to like work through together where we're landing ultimately on how Carrie being the one to pull the trigger, like how that sits with the larger examination of. fear and what it makes us do and how we react to it. And of course, also the opening yourself up to a relationship and getting shot in the head. I think the message is Speaker 1 (17:16) don't ever make yourself vulnerable or known to someone else. Speaker 2 (17:20) Right? Speaker 1 (17:21) Sitting here across from you on our five-year anniversary. Why ever open yourself up to someone you could just get shot in the head? Speaker 2 (17:28) It's tough. It's tough to contemplate. But if you can... I'm not saying Speaker 1 (17:32) that, but I think the show might be. You Speaker 2 (17:33) know, in the middle, you get some world-class garlic bread. Speaker 1 (17:38) I Speaker 2 (17:38) don't know about world class. You get to fucking cowboy Speaker 1 (17:39) boots? Best in western Nebraska. A little bit Speaker 2 (17:41) of local spin there. Yeah, when you have to Speaker 1 (17:43) like quantify Speaker 2 (17:45) where in the state you are in order to claim best garlic bread, I don't know that it's the best. I think that's Speaker 1 (17:51) a Speaker 2 (17:51) fair note. I think that's a fair note. And also like, is there Speaker 1 (17:54) a Little Italy in Los Angeles? Speaker 1 (17:58) There must be, right? Okay, I don't know. There must be. Shout out all the garlic bread in North Beach in San Francisco. There you go. Speaker 2 (18:04) And in Little Italy in Baltimore. Baltimore City, downtown Baltimore. So LA, if Speaker 1 (18:08) you Speaker 2 (18:08) don't have one, Speaker 1 (18:08) catch up. I'm sure LA Speaker 2 (18:09) has one. It seems impossible otherwise. I mean, that place was called like Paschetti's. Paschetti's was really funny. Speaker 1 (18:16) And then restaurants still. With love and respect, I don't think that garlic bread is very good. Speaker 2 (18:21) I think that's a reasonable assumption. I like that we opened, you know, right after, like the aftermath of the battle. We go back. We go back before we spend time in 2026. We're in 2016 briefly. Maggie's Speaker 1 (18:33) dad's Speaker 2 (18:33) leg Speaker 1 (18:33) gets another star-making close-up. Just blown off. Yeah. Speaker 2 (18:37) Blown to bits. We get the meat of the leg. We sure do. Speaker 1 (18:41) I mean, it's an interesting contrast to, because we get Rushville again later. That's right. Filmed in sort of this like golden Americana. Yes, the water tower is still decimated on the ground, but the... the flowers are blown in the breeze, you know? So like, uh, Rushville, it did rebuild itself to a certain degree. Um, we get this replay of the moment where Carrie saves. I think that's accurate to say John. Um, do you think that decision played into John's, um, desire to quote unquote, save Carrie or protect Carrie? I mean, he mentions that it's what Hal would have wanted, but like how much does her saving him here? I was just thinking about. Bilbo and Gollum and Frodo and just sort of pity and mercy staying in people's hands. Speaker 2 (19:25) You know, we talked about this a little bit with Tom King. Check out the interview if you haven't yet. And this will come up many times in the pod today because it was so... is so present and so central to, I mean, ultimately the season, but certainly to the finale, just the grace that John is able to find for other people. And I think that what's interesting about John and what's, you know, feels like a very fully realized, even though John is just starting ultimately his DCU journey, we're going to see him in Man of Tomorrow, et cetera, feels like we have watched a character live a life already, even though this next journey is just beginning, you know, the way that he is able to Speaker 2 (20:02) In a world where there is such judgment and bitterness and misery all around people all the time, find it in himself to try to understand somebody else's perspective and point of view and why they made the decision. And some of that is about what he himself has done and lived through. And some of it is about just making the effort to understand their perspective. So when we get to something like what he says later in the episode to Carrie. It's about Carrie. It's about Speaker 1 (20:27) Hal. It's about his own mother. Speaker 2 (20:28) It's about him. It's all there in the brew. It's Speaker 1 (20:31) a lot about his mom. Speaker 2 (20:32) It definitely is. Burn it Speaker 1 (20:33) looms large. Yeah, Speaker 2 (20:35) very much so. So I think that's all there. I think there are so many different strands and elements that put John into the place where he is. You know, like he'll joke about it kind of later with Guy. Well, like, fuck the chain of command, which is a big change for John. But all of this is in the brew then of like, what does he say, right? You know, I'll embrace my fear. I'll do what's right. right and thinking about that in a really big, meaningful Speaker 1 (21:00) way. I was really struck by your quoting his newly forged oath that he makes at the end of the episode. And I was really struck by I'll do what's right because that is such an interesting phrase. Without a larger governing body, Speaker 2 (21:17) it's Speaker 1 (21:18) up to you, the individual, to decide what is right. Right. And we like John so much and we admire him and sort of we believe in him, but also I'm quite scared of the fact that he's using this particular lantern. Sure. No, no, no. So he's just like, I will do what's right. And I'm like, right now, I do believe that John, who's like, I'm going to give Maggie the money anyway. You know, like, I'm going to. let Carrie off the hook for killing my guy, I guess. I'm going to hug my family. We'll talk about that. I believe in John and his moral clarity. But how long will that clarity stay clear? The Speaker 2 (21:53) lantern is scary. Powerful, but scary. Excited Speaker 1 (21:56) to talk about it. Gorgeous. Great, great production design. Okay. Events are sort of briefly edited, slightly out of order, in I think a really fun way where we have Carrie, that replay of Carrie telling people to stand down, asks where Hal is. John tells her she walks is walking up to the motel and then we like cut back to her in front of John again very charged look passing between them which I thought was really interesting and then she walks up to Hal who is slumped in what I would say is not entirely on Talia Al Ghul style of pose I would say when we glimpsed Hal less of Speaker 2 (22:29) the but yes I was like is that are we sure his spine is intact she's like I'm Speaker 1 (22:34) fine. And not a Speaker 2 (22:35) single switch Speaker 1 (22:37) of a finger on his body. Like, is he paralyzed in any kind of way? It was really Speaker 2 (22:42) worrying. He looked Speaker 1 (22:43) quite hurt. One of the things I loved Speaker 2 (22:45) about this so much, obviously, he's, you know, he's he's straight on the ground, bloodied face. He's a mess. Are you Speaker 1 (22:50) OK? Are you OK? Speaker 2 (22:52) Like his Speaker 1 (22:52) worry for her is so clear. If he wanted to, he would, guys. If he wanted to, he would. I mean. Speaker 2 (22:58) And then her worry for him, obviously, is very apparent, too. And so seeing 10 years prior in 2016, before we get to the 2026, you know, the relationship, seeing it, as obviously we have in some capacity mixed in with the humor and the barbs and being on different sides, you know, opposing forces, like the feelings are there, like the seeds of the affection on some level, just a tenderness and a level of care. Speaker 1 (23:23) Well, I think even, yes, all of that's true. And I think it was even clearer when we got that interaction with John the first time. And she's like, where's Hal? Speaker 2 (23:32) Like, that's her question. Not so I can go arrest him, but like, is he okay? They have Speaker 1 (23:38) this conversation where they both seem to agree that all of this is Hal's fault. Where are you on this? I don't agree. Same Speaker 2 (23:43) place, Speaker 1 (23:43) yeah. I mean, it's so weird. Like, we had talked about this before when Carrie... you know, in the previous episode, it said, like, anything that happens next is your fault. And then they both, while Hal is maybe has a snap spine on the ground, like, they both seem to agree, but she feels sorry for him anyway. And I was like, I don't agree. I do believe that Zoe Macon, a.k.a. the grandmother, as Sinestro calls her, the Manhunter, is responsible. I believe Anton is responsible. For Speaker 2 (24:09) sure, yeah. Speaker 1 (24:09) But what Hal says is for selfish reasons. Yes, yes. Speaker 2 (24:13) And he Speaker 1 (24:14) doesn't really, like, I mean. I still think they're doing too much conversing for someone who seems to have a snap spine on the ground of this wrecked motel. I think we should be calling the ambulance. But he doesn't really go into what those selfish reasons are. My interpretation is he wanted to be the one to take down the Manhunter. And he had to cowboy through it and not call for backup so that he could prove to the Guardians that he is still a plus number one Green Lantern material. Yeah. Speaker 2 (24:44) And as we heard him say when we witnessed the Battle of Rushville for the first time, like, I'm going to fucking fly up to Oa and those blue bastards are going to kiss my ring. So for sure it was still in the throes of like, I'm in the you're going to take this off my cold dead body. And so, of course, all of this is here for us when we hear Hal O'Graham tell John that he's going to be better at it than he ever was. And it's just all so great. I thought that I agree with you. I had the same, like, yeah, a lot of blame for Hal, for sure. But a lot of blame to go around. We're in the same place with that. I think the fact that he is accepting, seeing something clearly here in that moment, or how clearly is he saying it, but he is accepting a level. of responsibility that will position him ultimately to, you know, not only do the time in this 10-year sentence, as he'll tell John in the cafe sequence, but just that he is going to enter this phase of his life, you know, as we'll hear Carrie talk about it. Speaker 2 (25:45) Poschettis? Poschettis. Speaker 1 (25:46) Posteria. Speaker 2 (25:47) Poschettis Posteria. That he's trying to do the work. Like he's preparing himself to do the work and try to get better and to take some responsibility. Speaker 1 (25:57) What was it like delivering grocery? Yeah, exactly. Speaker 2 (26:00) Kissing Speaker 1 (26:01) babies, helping old ladies cross the street, mowing lawns. Speaker 2 (26:04) Yeah. And so like obviously that could have just come from reflecting in prison. But I think that seeing right away here in the face of John taking the ring off his finger and walking out and the damage and destruction around him that he's already right there was beneficial. I do like the because in this scene, this is where Carrie asks him like, what will the. Guardians say that's what sets up the, you know, they'll say I did this for selfish reasons and how it's all a tidy solution for them. Speaker 2 (26:31) I don't know that we're going to talk about it again maybe when we get to the John Guy scene, but no Liana in the finale, no Guardians in the finale. No Laura Linney in the finale. I was surprised. Speaker 1 (26:39) When we were counting all the things we felt like they needed to check in on for the finale. It was a long list. It was a long list, and they were like, you know what? We don't, actually. I think it's fine that Liana's not here. I think it's fine that we didn't, you know, especially since John's stance is I don't work for them, so they don't need to be Speaker 2 (26:56) here. Speaker 1 (26:57) For sure. And I love that that's a... Laura Linney's sort of exit from the season. If you go back, it's that scene in the bar. So that's like a great final moment. But yeah, we did think we might get some Guardian stuff and we didn't. Okay, so yes, to answer Rob Mahoney's question from a couple weeks ago, what is Hal in prison for? It looks like reckless endangerment. Is what Speaker 2 (27:20) got him locked up for 10 years, I Speaker 1 (27:22) guess. 2026, prison pickup scene. Carrie? Unbelievable. Looks fantastic here. Now, she's always beautiful. Yes. Helen MacDonald, just like a striking woman her entire life. But I will say, in the bright sunshine with the sun just sort of blowing through her hair, she just has this effortless, clean girl aesthetic. She's got the light button down, tucked into the dark wash jeans with the belt buckle. Six back in her hand. She just looks at flowers that she's like, maybe, no. Speaker 2 (27:57) I know she tossed them into the car, but the fact that she brought Hal a bouquet of flowers was so delightful to me. You know that he Speaker 1 (28:04) saw them in the car and he was just sort of like, you get those for me? You know what I mean? Wonderful stuff. Wonderful stuff. She looks incredible. She Speaker 2 (28:12) looks Speaker 1 (28:12) great. Kelly MacDonald is 50 years old. I just want to, you know. How? Speaker 2 (28:15) Look however Speaker 1 (28:16) you want to look in your life. I support women looking however they want. I just want to say this is a beautiful woman who looks beautiful. And, like, natural and gorgeous. And Hal walking out of prison to this vision of this gorgeous woman who he is, wooed and courted, showing up for him with the six-pack. And all the things that these two incredible actors convey with very simple dialogue, right? Like, you're here. I am. That's it. You brought Schlitz. You came. You called. You came. About to. About to. I mean, Speaker 2 (28:47) if they had just fucked in the backseat of the car, who would have complained? Not me. I don't know. Wait, do we Speaker 1 (28:52) know where that prison is? Speaker 2 (28:55) I Speaker 1 (28:55) don't know where it is, but I feel like they're not making it back to the side of Speaker 2 (28:59) the Speaker 1 (28:59) road. No, Speaker 2 (29:00) closest motel. Speaker 1 (29:01) I think Speaker 2 (29:01) they checked it into a motel. Why Speaker 1 (29:02) not both? They're like, remember last time we were at a motel and your spine was snapped and everyone was dead? Speaker 2 (29:08) Yeah, maybe Speaker 1 (29:09) not the most romantic setting for them. Good point. Speaker 2 (29:13) Perhaps they found a nice like open field somewhere and there was a blanket. The hunger in Hal Jordan's eyes for Schlitz. For all of it. For all of it. Let me ask you a question. Something I'm going to file away just in case it ever comes up in the future. It's Schlitz for Hal. If I ever have to greet you as you are being let out of prison, what do you want me to show up with? Like booze wise or anything at all? What Speaker 1 (29:38) would be your... You Speaker 2 (29:39) brought Speaker 1 (29:39) Schlitz? Speaker 1 (29:42) I'll tell you what my best friend does to like, and it's also you. I was going to say, weird that I'd be Speaker 2 (29:49) asking if I should know the answer. Speaker 1 (29:53) Here's what I think. Schlitz is a great, like, I bought a six pack. That's a great like, Corn Fred, she's not from Nebraska, Gotham Girl shows up with a six pack for Hal Jordan. And they Speaker 2 (30:03) were like, bring beer to the Macon Ranch at the beginning. John, bring beer Speaker 1 (30:07) for the meatloaf dinner. All of it, you know. Speaker 1 (30:13) Because I like the idea of something that you wouldn't get for yourself, but something you really, really like. Right. And something Speaker 2 (30:19) you Speaker 1 (30:19) haven't had for 10 years in prison. It's a mint Milano. Pepper's Farms Mint Milano. Wow. I don't. Delicious. They're my favorite. I don't like get them for myself just because I don't. And then like my best friend occasionally like. Speaker 2 (30:32) I'll miss Speaker 1 (30:32) a way. There will it will just appear. There will be a package. Speaker 2 (30:35) We'll have a double stuffed Milano. Sure. What's yours? Speaker 1 (30:37) What's your answer? Speaker 2 (30:43) Flamin' hot Cheetos. Okay. Speaker 1 (30:45) Okay. No bad ideas and a brainstem. Do you want a pair of chopsticks or do you want to get that Cheeto dust all over your fingers? I want it on my fingers. Yeah, you want it to live and again. And then Speaker 2 (30:53) you can't even lick it off. You have to scrape it with your teeth. And Speaker 1 (30:56) you're like, Speaker 2 (30:57) I'm alive. Yeah, because if I'm in landlocked Nebraska, I can't ask for a crab cake or something, I don't think. You know, a steamed crab. I Speaker 1 (31:03) was Speaker 2 (31:03) thinking, Speaker 1 (31:03) what if I brought you an ice cold shaker and we had martinis? That would be wonderful. Speaker 2 (31:08) How many olives? Post Speaker 1 (31:09) -prison martinis. The limit does not exist. It's more olive than martini. Great. Briny. Cold as space. Speaker 2 (31:16) What was the line from industry? Is it cold as space? Salter than the ocean? Brinier Speaker 1 (31:21) than the Speaker 2 (31:21) ocean? Like, briny as the ocean, cold as space? It's great stuff. Wonderful. The best thing Cal Penn has ever done, his martini order in industry. Okay. Speaker 1 (31:27) And working for the Obama campaign. Okay. So, this is where we get those, like, golden Americana shots of Rushville. Speaker 1 (31:37) The song is playing is called Right Back At It. And if you look up the lyrics, this is very much a song about two people sort of coming back together inside of a relationship. And all of the. Speaker 1 (31:50) fear. Yeah. The, like, we can, we can do this. We can get back together. We can make this work except here are like the things I'm worried about or here are the things that might get in the way. It's just like, if I can just not get in my own way, trip over my own tail on this, like, we can really have something special. But here are the dangers of rekindling something that went wrong before. Yeah. And so I just, I think that there's like, Speaker 1 (32:18) I was almost thinking, like, why are we getting these golden shots of Rushville? very Shire-esque. Like, this is the thing we're preserving. And if you think about this and also the very extended Friday Night Lights, like, football game sequence that we get at the end and the sort of, like, post-celebration and the Macon family. Speaker 2 (32:36) Actual Nebraska coach Matt Ruhle just there to hand Noah his hat. Mallory texted Speaker 1 (32:40) me. She's like, can't believe this guy's there. Speaker 2 (32:41) I Speaker 1 (32:41) was like, Matt, Speaker 2 (32:42) I Speaker 1 (32:42) texted you Matt Ruhle and then I was like, real Mike Leach and FNL vibes because it is, you know? Yeah, and I said, from context clues, I think you're talking about the... The Scurs guy who shows up. And I was. So there you go. But yeah, so this is a thing worth preserving? Yeah. Americana Heartland, the Shire, fresh tilled earth. Like, what do you think? Speaker 2 (33:06) Definitely. I think, you know, here with the golden hour, but the other place I was thinking about that actually was, it was a humorous moment. But later as John and Noah pull up to the stadium ahead of the game and there's like the little like. you know, the little knock on the marching band, right? It's hard in a small town to find a good marching band. But just that minute where they're sitting there and the music starts to drench the scene, it made me think of the beginning of Black Widow when they're leaving an American Pie place. And there's just something about the glimpse of the small town and the needle drop and the football. And it does, it's like, yeah, this is like the life that you, you don't know if you deserve it or if you're going to be able to get it or if you're going to keep it. And maybe you can and will. And what a beautiful message. And maybe you will. shoot your hot boyfriend in the head. That would really suck. Speaker 1 (33:52) As we continue to celebrate our five-year anniversary. Do you think talking about American Pie on the Black Widow podcast is the first time we ever cried together on a podcast? I think it might have been. Speaker 2 (34:02) Whoa, great question. Because that was our third pod together or second? Loki was... Let's see. So I did... You Speaker 1 (34:09) did the Lost podcast. The Lost podcast. Did we cry about Speaker 2 (34:11) Sawyer Speaker 1 (34:11) and Juliet? I Speaker 2 (34:12) don't think so. Did we want to, but we weren't sure if we could yet? Speaker 1 (34:15) Yeah. Now we know. It was a little earlier. Yeah, and then we did Black Widow. And then Black Widow. And Speaker 2 (34:21) then... Speaker 1 (34:22) Did we do one more? Did we do a low-key one? I think you did something and then I worked here for five years. Or was Speaker 2 (34:28) it Falcon? There was one other episode early in the MCU TV COVID days and then we were together and no one can tear us apart. But Speaker 1 (34:36) I feel like I haven't re-listened to that Black Widow episode. Maybe I should, but I feel like we cried about that. Speaker 2 (34:41) And we knew it was meant to be. Speaker 1 (34:43) Beautiful. And guess what it was? Speaker 2 (34:44) And it is. Speaker 1 (34:46) Have I ever told you about... Speaker 1 (34:49) what when the saints go marching in means to me i don't