'Lanterns' Episode 7 Deep Dive
House of R
Hosts Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin conduct a deep dive into episode seven of 'Lanterns,' titled 'The Jordan Boys Legacy.' The discussio
Key takeaways
- The episode utilizes a 1975 flashback to explore the relationship between Hal and his father, Martin Jordan.
- The presence of a hologram allows for physical interaction and emotional closure despite Hal's passing.
Main topics
- Hal Jordan's death and legacy
- Generational trauma and father-son dynamics
Notable quotes
Brother, it's all that matters.
Conclusion
A profound exploration of how character history and inherited trauma d
Transcript preview
Speaker 1 (0:04) Hello and welcome back to House of Art. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today to defend the use of red apples as nightmare fuel. It's Mallory Rubin. Oh boy, that hot but possibly evil sheriff's going to be back after her brunch. We better get to it. Do you think that's you, the hot yet evil sheriff of House of R? Certainly not. Back from the brunch that was your vacation? Did I stretch that too thin? Yeah, Speaker 2 (0:31) what do you mean summon? I'm not your genie. That could have also worked, Speaker 1 (0:35) you know, upon the return. Lantern stuff, go. Let's do it. We're here to talk about lanterns. Have you heard of it? Episode seven, guess what? A phenomenal episode of television. We're going to get into that. A deep dive, if you will, right after this. Speaker 1 (1:02) All right, before we dive into those red apple infested waters, quick programming reminders. The Speaker 2 (1:09) program's a Speaker 1 (1:10) little in flux right now. We are doing the Lanterns finale next week. That we do know. For sure, yeah. Speaker 2 (1:15) Vision Quest is Speaker 1 (1:16) coming up pretty Speaker 2 (1:17) soon. It Speaker 1 (1:17) sure is. Speaker 2 (1:17) Only a couple weeks away. A Speaker 1 (1:19) couple weeks Speaker 2 (1:19) away. Two and a half weeks, sheesh. And then we have some thoughts about what we're going to do in between, Speaker 1 (1:22) and you get to find out in real time what those are. Speaker 1 (1:27) We're having a great time. How can folks figure out what all of those ambiguous clues mean, Mallory Rubin? Here's what I'd recommend. Follow along. Why not? Follow the pod on Speaker 2 (1:37) Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys on Spotify, Incredible, and on the Ringerverse YouTube channel while you're at it. Follow our new-ish social handle at... Speaker 1 (1:52) Outhouse of Speaker 2 (1:53) our... Outhouse of our pod is also thriving on Instagram Speaker 1 (1:57) right now. Speaker 2 (1:59) At House of our pod on Instagram, on TikTok. Of course, follow the ringerverse and send us your emails. The inbox is open. We don't know yet exactly when we'll be recording the finale pods, but keep the Lanterns emails coming for sure. They've been wonderful so far. And send us your... Vision Quest emails. Like Jo said, that's just around the bend. Speaker 1 (2:19) Send us your Wicker emails. Please continue Speaker 2 (2:21) to send Speaker 1 (2:22) your book recommendations because we are going to do some sort of House of Reads. Just shifted slightly. One of us is going Speaker 2 (2:29) to do it. The one who's been preparing to do it. I will be. Sorry. I'm so sorry. Speaker 1 (2:32) I will be doing House of Reads. It is still happening. And I Speaker 2 (2:35) will not be absent because I don't like reading. I love to read. She loves reading. We just did not give her any Speaker 1 (2:40) prep when it was supposed to happen when she was gone and it didn't. Now it's going to happen. When she's in town. I can't wait Speaker 2 (2:45) to listen. Speaker 1 (2:47) Spoiler warning for today. Yes. Everything's going fine. Lanterns, episode seven. Everything up through. Yeah. Did you watch this episode? You should have. It's great. Up through episode seven, no finale spoilers. We haven't seen it. I've Speaker 2 (2:59) not seen the finale. We don't know Speaker 1 (2:59) what's happened in the finale. We have no clue. Couldn't spoil it. Speaker 2 (3:01) Maybe at some point today we'll mention the teaser for the finale that they showed at the end of this episode. Sure. Rich Speaker 1 (3:07) text. Boy, there were some interesting glimpses in there. Some speculation time for sure. And anything in the comics, anything in the DCU. Speaker 2 (3:19) That's right. Speaker 1 (3:21) Anything in the MCU if we want to talk about. Einstein, Rosen, Bridges or like anything like that. We can. Stranger Things. That's right. Naturally. You know, and that's about that. The Great Gatsby. possibly. I have certainly some Harry Potter once Speaker 2 (3:37) again. I think both of those will come up as we look across and see a blinking light. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. As we sail toward an island in the center of Speaker 1 (3:46) a Speaker 2 (3:46) lake. As Speaker 1 (3:46) we beat, Speaker 2 (3:46) you know, Speaker 1 (3:46) ceaselessly against the past. Sounds great. That's our spoiler warning for classic literature. Let's go now to our opening snapshot. Speaker 1 (4:01) Okay, we are here to talk about episode seven, The Jordan Boys Legacy, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Mallory, you're on a much-deserved vacation for episode six podcast. I was sick. We were going to pre-record. Anyway, long story short. Yeah. You're not here. Thank you to Rob Mahoney for filling in. Shout out Speaker 2 (4:17) Mahoney. Always. Speaker 1 (4:18) What a legend. But the bad babies are devastated to not get your takes on a couple things. Number one. Speaker 1 (4:25) Yeah. Earl Jordan finding out that Hal Jordan has has died and his devastation. How was your devastation when you saw that? Speaker 2 (4:32) Crushing. Yeah. Genuinely, as I have said before on this very podcast, I mean, everybody knows how I feel about the connection with a pet in general. Speaker 1 (4:42) I Speaker 2 (4:43) don't want to start sobbing at the beginning of the pod, so I'll leave it there. But as I have said before on the pod, one of my great fears throughout my life has been. obviously losing your pet, that's just a horrible thing, that Speaker 1 (4:55) I would die and that my cat would not understand Speaker 2 (5:00) what had happened to me. That was something that used to torment me every time I left the house. So it was very sad to see Earl learn about Hal's passing in that manner. I was glad that John and Earl were able to rediscover their spark pretty quickly. You know, that's a lovely thing to see. Speaker 2 (5:18) You and Rob went through it, but I also was thinking about the location of Earl's Perch. Bedside. It's intimate. It's intimate. I was glad that, you know, you and Rob discussed the fridge meat situation, given your respective culinary pursuits and that you guys had a chance to work through that with each other. I wouldn't say we worked through Speaker 1 (5:40) anything. I would say the battle goes on. How do you feel? Speaker 2 (5:45) I Speaker 1 (5:46) mean, I know you don't keep a ton of... Yeah, we don't really... I know you don't Speaker 2 (5:49) cook, Speaker 1 (5:49) but Speaker 2 (5:49) like... Well, so as you know, I am very paranoid about all sorts of like health and safety issues. Speaker 1 (5:56) So, I mean... Speaker 2 (5:57) You're Speaker 1 (5:57) on my side? Speaker 2 (5:59) I Speaker 1 (5:59) see what both of you were saying. You Speaker 2 (6:02) can Speaker 1 (6:02) just say you're on my side. Speaker 2 (6:03) I think that the... Like, I think that Rob's let's cook the meat while it's nice and fresh. Sure, of course. Preferable, obviously. Wonderful. I would like my meat to not be... Rotten. Rotten. But I don't feel equipped to comment on when that happens as somebody who is mostly ordering my food. So Speaker 1 (6:20) I don't Speaker 2 (6:21) know. Speaker 1 (6:22) Wow, there are good people on both sides of this argument, says Molly Rubin. The other thing the bad babies want you to weigh in on is, so we find out, it's canonical, this thing that you had been hoping for, the hot yet possibly evil sheriff, Carrie, and Hal. Yeah, they've been fucking. They had a relationship, an emotionally intimate. And a fresh Speaker 2 (6:42) in the sheets. And hopefully quite physically intimate Speaker 1 (6:45) relationship. We did not get to see it on screen. It happened off screen. How do you feel about that? Speaker 2 (6:50) Listen, on the one hand, I'll take implied sex over no sex. We have one episode to go still in the season and I am holding out for flashbacks. Oh, flashbacks. Okay, great. Follow up? Yeah. Speaker 1 (7:06) Now that we know that the hologram is corporeal, which was a big question I had, he can touch things. That's right. Would you settle for a hologram 20 years earlier on the old back muscles, you know, on the old like limber situation? I think that Speaker 2 (7:22) until the second Hal Jordan left this mortal coil, those hips were ready to thrust. Okay. You know, Speaker 1 (7:29) so any... Speaker 2 (7:30) I Speaker 1 (7:30) missed you. Speaker 1 (7:32) There's a lot that Rob can do, but he can't do that. You know, I Speaker 2 (7:34) was sad, really sad to miss that pod. It was wonderful to listen to you guys talk about it. I had a great time on vacation. I am jet lagged as fuck and barely hanging on. My eyelids are sunburned, but wasn't going to miss talking about this Speaker 1 (7:47) episode. There was no way we were going to have this episode happen without you. Like zero chance. Speaker 2 (7:51) No, there's so much to get to. And I want to say, I want to thank you for commenting on the jacket, the new jacket as well. You're welcome. I do that for you. When you feel seen and known and understood. Yeah. It makes a difference. Speaker 1 (8:05) You want to talk Speaker 2 (8:06) about Martin, Martin Speaker 1 (8:06) Jordan's Speaker 2 (8:07) jacket? Well, that was actually genuinely that was kind of clarifying because, as you know, I've been very hung up on the hologram jacket. And that felt like even though they're different, it's very like a matching leather hue. And yes, that felt like a connection to Martin, to dad. So that was clarifying. My favorite Hal jacket is still the primary 2016 double RL jacket, which is simply iconic, but they've all been great. Yeah, I hope that we get to see some actual sex, whether it's with the hologram or in a flashback. I'll accept either. I'll accept them gladly. I'm glad to know that those two really connected. We have a lot of opportunities in this episode to talk about that. My Speaker 1 (8:47) favorite thing in episode six, though, was the eulogy. And I thought that I hope it Speaker 2 (8:52) mattered. I hope I mattered, was just gobsmacking and gorgeous and absolutely wrenching and really, really just incredible. And there were a lot of incredible things in this episode, which I thought was absolutely wonderful. Episode Speaker 1 (9:04) seven was my favorite of the season so far. Episode seven is by far my favorite of the season so far. So this is The Jordan Boys Legacy, directed by Alec Sakharoff, who is a Thrones guy. Mm-hmm. He did The Climb and Mockingbird, among other episodes. An Ozark guy, so he knows Chris Muddy from his work on Ozark. He worked on Rome, Dexter, Boardwalk. He was like Alan Taylor's DP before he was a director. So I always love when people make the move from cinematography to directing, and then they always have a very distinctive visual style. And I think visually this episode was quite special, in addition to all the other things. Chris Muddy, if you listen to Speaker 2 (9:44) the Speaker 1 (9:44) official podcast, Chris Muddy was... like very clear that when they get to the uh yellow planet that we have at the end of the episode he's like that was not in the volume we were out in a desert somewhere obviously cgi enhanced but i think the visuals of this uh you know because we've been off world to go to you know uh a prison, but to go to another planet and sort of see what another world would look like inside of this grounded, you know, universe that they're trying to give us was really exciting. An Speaker 2 (10:13) apocalyptic hellscape that happens to be yellow. Speaker 1 (10:17) Yellow. Notable. Could be, could be interesting. Written by Speaker 2 (10:22) Tom King, have you heard of him? Yeah. Damon Lindelof, have Speaker 1 (10:25) you heard of him? And I gotta say, Power Squad. This is not surprising to me that this was my favorite episode of the season. This is the Linda Lafayette episode of the series so far. It is daddy issues all the way down. Yep. Could not be more. What's the greatest answer to a mystery? A person. What's in the box? It's Sinestro. It's a planet, but it's also Sinestro. What's in the hatch? It's Desmond. What's in the box? It's Sinestro. There's just like a lot of like incredible. therapy speak that works for me. You know, how do we break, you know, cycles, generational cycles? Just like all this stuff was such a rich text for me. And the way in which we got to see this relationship between Hal and John, the one they couldn't have in life that comes through here in the afterlife. Speaker 1 (11:18) To watch this Hal, even though he is like a kinder, gentler Hal, but still a quite damaged Hal, to watch him grapple with Speaker 2 (11:26) finding Speaker 1 (11:27) out, A, what a terrible, finding out, again, what a terrible mentor he was to John. But also, you know, I was in jail. I was in love. Oh, my God. You know, finding out that he was capable of having a relationship with a woman and and capable. And then. It was over so quickly, like just at the end of his life, you know, and then what that unscrews, you know, that lid unscrewed on sort of his shame and trauma and how that allows him to then share with with John inside this episode. I just thought this was phenomenal, phenomenal episode television. Speaker 2 (12:00) Yeah, I really, really adored this one. I think this one will the whole season has been great, but I think this episode will really stand the test of time and stick with us. I can't wait to see, you know, knowing there's only an hour left. It feels like. we're on the brink of a really strong conclusion to this season. And also there are a lot of questions to answer and mysteries that remain, but we have made such thematic and emotional progress. And it's a hard balancing act to be able to continue to propel the plot forward in this way while really allowing us to feel that we have made that individual and collective growth for our characters. I obviously agree on the Lindelof front. You know, you feel all of those hallmarks here in such a satisfying way. And again, like to be able to do that, you know, Lost is one of our shared favorites and a show that we just we adore and we love to think about and we love to revisit and we love to spot connections to across shows that are clearly influenced by it, whether or not people who helped to make Lost or run Lost were involved. Speaker 1 (12:56) Can I just tell you that Adam Scott in the New York Times top top 100 shows, Adam Scott being like, you know, I watched I rewatched Lost as we were making Severance season one. And I'm like, I know. I know you did. Speaker 2 (13:07) Guess what? Speaker 1 (13:08) I know. Speaker 2 (13:09) It's a wonderful rewatch. You know, there were so many episodes of Lost and nothing can touch Lost. It's just a pantheon Speaker 1 (13:20) show. Yeah, when are we doing the tattoo episode of Lanterns? Speaker 2 (13:23) I know. I know. Speaker 1 (13:26) Oh, Speaker 2 (13:27) man, I think about those Jack tattoos a lot. But yeah, Speaker 1 (13:29) I Speaker 2 (13:29) mean, even the fact that like different context. The word failsafe is invoked here. You know, you mentioned the hatch. When we get that framing of Hal and John looking into the box, it is so Jack and John looking down into the hatch in a way that really just invites those parallels. But as you said, the daddy issue is the question of what we inherit and what we pass down and what we feel we can or can't escape, what we're defined by, what path we can. try to chart for ourselves. It's all so present. I think, you know, it was really great to hear Tom King talk on the official pod about the trauma that is so present in his work and why he loves to mine that and explore that and even how he thinks about continuity. And that, of course, is connected to the idea that is right there in the title of this episode and very present thematically in this episode and this season, which is like legacy, right? And some of that is inside of your family or inside your core. And some of that is something that you build over time. And some of it is something that a version of you realizes you couldn't build over time and how hard that is to confront. I thought that this episode is an examination of like missed connections, brief connections, lost connections, and then second chances in surprising forms was just really, really lovely. And I just am so delighted to be back to talk about it with you. Jet lag and all. Speaker 1 (14:46) Let's just Speaker 2 (14:46) get Speaker 1 (14:47) right into the deep dive, shall we? Let's do Speaker 2 (14:48) it. Speaker 1 (14:59) All right. So we open with a Hal Jordan flashback cold open. This is obviously not our first flashback of the season. But again, I think it is the lostiest that we've gotten so far. We're in 1975. Could have easily been 1976, but we did 1975. We broke the shifted the decades pattern just as we did with Carrie. That was a Speaker 2 (15:20) fun little wrinkle. It's true. Speaker 1 (15:22) Well, I kind of like that idea that like, you know, those those 10 year increments are sort of. john's path and then like carrie and haller on a different path something like that but You and I had talked about this earlier in the season of like whether or not we would get a Hal flashback episode when we got the John flashback episode. And I think we both agreed. I mean, I certainly think this was your stance was sort of like if we got a whole Hal flashback episode, it would depend when they would deploy it. It might sort of halt the momentum of the season. So instead of getting a full flashback episode, we get a sort of like lengthy open and then a bookend inside of this episode. So how did that sort of parceling of the story work for you? Speaker 2 (16:01) I thought this was the perfect choice. You know, as we discussed a lot when we dove into episode three, it is tricky to figure out the right way and place to do this, as we also talked about at that time. You know, the lost approach to flashbacks where you are in the primary contemporary timeline and the thing that you're glimpsing from the past allows you to understand or unlock something and, you know, a different degree of context for what the character is going through. Speaker 2 (16:31) There's no real way to do that without literally doing that, right? It's just... It's just true. Yeah. And so to distill this down in such a fashion, and of course we have moved through time, we have moved through different structures, in some capacity in every episode, right? We're not always just rooted in one moment. To give us this moment with Hal, I think especially because, like... You know, thinking about episode six, that diner scene, right? The cafe scene. John goes, led by Bernadette. He has this one conversation with Hal and then instantly Hal, it's gone. It's gone. It's over, right? And the proximity of those things, the interaction, the thing we glimpsed, and then the realization that there would never be another opportunity for it, at least in that form, you know, to open this episode with young Hal. And like, some of it is what has happened inside of the season, but some of it is just lanterns. Hal Jordan's father has died and that is a seismic defining thing in his life. And we know that. Speaker 1 (17:35) For the very Speaker 2 (17:35) first Speaker 1 (17:35) episode of this season. Yeah. Speaker 2 (17:36) And we know that from the film and we know that from comics canon and we know it's just in the air. And so there is this, even though I found so much of what we witnessed in this opening stretch, which I'm excited to talk about like every part of this opening, I thought it was amazing. Speaker 2 (17:51) so like affirming and heartening, even though there are little warning bells inside of it, right? Yeah. I would say many. Starting Speaker 1 (17:59) a fight with your son's coach. We have Speaker 2 (18:02) some notes. Or like, brother, Speaker 1 (18:05) tell them about it. Or, you know, like telling your child the story of the mental health history in your family and saying, don't tell your mom. Don't tell your mom. You've got to carry it. She can't carry it. You, a child, have to carry it. We have some Speaker 2 (18:16) things to work through. I have notes. But also then there's this glimpse of this. bond and to know and we hear you know later just a couple months a couple months later right we know how close it is but before we even know we know we know we are watching this one thing and that it's going to be all we see because Martin's gone and that's just hanging over that whole interaction the finality of it and the loss and the voice that we have from the beginning of the season how saying well like Once a kid loses their parent, that's the worst thing that can happen. What else is there to be afraid of? And the clarity that comes from what we witness in this flashback, but also then what we hear the hologram share with John, right, on the lake, on the boat, what he carried with him and the way that his navigation of his assessment of his own fear and his own feelings and this idea of his inheritance led him to this. life of a mask in many forms. Like, it was just so, so, so sad. I found it absolutely heartbreaking. Also, some incredible needle drops in this episode. Oh, yeah. I Speaker 1 (19:20) mean, Speaker 2 (19:21) very Speaker 1 (19:21) Mallory core to hit you with the Dylan. Yeah, I mean, we got a Dylan cover and Speaker 2 (19:25) Queen. Like, come Speaker 1 (19:26) on. Speaker 2 (19:27) It's Speaker 1 (19:27) for you. It really felt like it was. For you to bring up the structure of Lost, which is inside of an episode of Lost, as we mentioned before. We get flashbacks that help illuminate the plot that's unfolding in front of us. We get a version of that inside of this series, but it's it's done less directly. And what it does is it rewards rewatches. Oh, yes. And so as we're peeling back the onion of understanding on first John and Carrie a bit and now on on how. When you go back and rewatch, it just, like, all these lines take on different meaning, you know? And so every time that Hal has talked about his father throughout the season, you can go and rewatch those. Or every time he talks about not being afraid, and then we find out that, like, you know, he's one of Speaker 2 (20:13) the Speaker 1 (20:13) most fearful people alive. I know from experience in my own family, like, anytime there is, like... mental health or dementia or all this sort of stuff that feels like a ticking time bomb inside of you. This idea that like his father tells him like, you know, it's in the blood, which is like curse language. You are cursed. And this came from my father and it's coming for me and it's going to come for you. And so for for young Hal on the TV to say like you lose your father, what else is there to be afraid of? Yeah. But he's in a full body clench of fear. Yes, absolutely. That he is going to become his father. And there are many ways in which he like ran towards becoming his father from the jacket to, you know, the charm and the swag, you know, like and this depiction of Martin Jordan. And again, this is just like what incredibly good writers can do with very little screen time and a great and a great performance. Yes. Like Jake Miller as Martin Jordan. We only get a few minutes of screen time with him. Yeah. But you just like. He's it's just the perfect encapsulation of the kind of dad that a young kid who doesn't really fully understand the scope of what's happening. The damaging thing that his father is doing to him in his moment would just hero worship. His dad is cool and handsome and nice to him, you know, and like tender, funny and like kind and says it's OK to be afraid. But also here's some lifelong damage that I'm just about to hang around your neck via a key, you know, like all this sort of stuff. So like. All of that looming over Hal and informing who he becomes, who he doesn't want to be, informing why he might never make a connection with Carol, let alone anyone else. If he's like, if I make a connection with people and then I become what my father became, what my grandfather became, then I'm going to devastate them the way that my father devastated me and devastated my mother. Yes. You know, and so like I cannot have people around me because I am a bomb. It makes it easier, no ties. Speaker 2 (22:12) Keep people at a distance for their own safety. It's a lonely fucking job. And it's like something that he positions to John in episode four when he says those things is for their safety, but also there's a self-preservation aspect to it. I think to your question about like, how did this work as the moment and the way to get this? I think that this show, any good show, any nuanced assessment of a human being would say that there are... Speaker 2 (22:36) infinite moments in your life that determine who you are and that inform who you are. Right. But I think also there is an aspect of this that is an acknowledgement that there are certain things in your life that are just bigger than other things. Right. And that cast a shadow. They are there forever. And that part of the way that you can try to understand them or look at them in a different way is. Speaker 2 (23:04) with the help of other people. And that if you shut yourself off of that, I mean, I think what we saw in this was like, I love what you're saying about that this would be the guy that Hal would worship. And of course, and there even just something about, you know, how Jordan baseball guy is like canon, but means even more to me in the Kyle Chandler verse, obviously. Something so perfect about the story we get in the idea of the pitcher, this question, you know, I thought you were a team player. Are you a team player, son? That that was there before even Martin's death. This question of like, Hal, are you a guy who's going to end up being friends with the other members of the Lantern Corps? You know, there's something there already. Yeah. And then there's something that. deepens and calcifies and concretizes the fact that Hal looks at his father and sees so much love and pride and belief and encouragement and the loss of that, that he would want to live his life in that person's image. Right. He said he was fearless. He told me my grandpa said he was fearless and that that's what he's going to project and tell himself and that he will understand that whole time that there is something underneath that. That is very different indeed. And that everybody carries. And the fact that Martin primed Hal for this but didn't actually tell him, like that's, Hal finds that in a piece of paper, that clarity. He's like something that stayed Speaker 1 (24:19) between your father and me and you won't understand. Exactly. It's so good. The team aspect that you raise I think is fascinating because we get two scenes inside of this episode where we we rattle off the names of several teammates. We get the names of the boys on the Tigers with Al here. And then later we'll get the names of Noah's offensive linemen. And so, and the way, the contrast between Noah, we've decided on this podcast, is some flavor of villain. Speaker 1 (24:51) When we Speaker 2 (24:52) talked about it in episode five, I think we were like 98, 99 percent. Yeah, Speaker 1 (24:58) and Speaker 2 (24:58) the whole world is Speaker 1 (24:59) like. Speaker 2 (24:59) We could just, it's like 100 percent, 99.999 Speaker 1 (25:02) percent that he is a Manhunter. Speaker 2 (25:05) I think we were there already, but it's just, it feels like a lock. Speaker 1 (25:07) No, definitely a Manhunter. What he did is still, I think, a question. But I think no matter what, the Manhunter quality of him is. carries with it a sinister implication sure and so the idea that like noah who is some flavor of villain inside of the story is like the team player is the guy who like won't do his hat ceremony without his without his guys there yep his offensive lineman Speaker 2 (25:35) his defense Speaker 1 (25:36) you know like his his Speaker 2 (25:37) protection yeah look at you for sure you know what i mean Speaker 1 (25:40) but like I understand this sort of like Manhunter impulse for protection. Yes. But, you know, so like I need to have my like guys around me in case a sniper comes. So they'll like throw their body in front of me or something like that. Like all of that is in the mix with this Manhunter ideology. Are the aliens hunting you Speaker 2 (25:54) any different from the edge rushers trying to sack you at the end of the day? I Speaker 1 (25:58) was going to Speaker 2 (25:58) say the same Speaker 1 (25:58) thing. Something Speaker 2 (25:59) to think about. Speaker 1 (26:00) Question for our time. It's a great question. But nonetheless, if we were to look at these two guys and say like. Speaker 2 (26:07) Yeah. Speaker 1 (26:09) One of them wants all of his guys at his ceremony and the other one wants to punch all of them. And you would say, who's the hero? Who's the villain? That's the muddy question that this show is asking for us, which I really love. All right. Oh, and he says his defense. And so I really love the title of this episode, right? The Jordan boys legacy. We'll hit it a bunch of times. Yeah. The Jordan boys, first of all, just like really hits at this arrested development aspect that is true of Martin and is true of Hal. I like them both, but they are boys and not men in many regards. Right. It reminds me of like Germany has declared war on the Jones boys, like thinking about like, which is another one of my favorite stories of all times, a great father and son story. But like the Jordan boys, the Jones boys thinking about Jon Stewart as one of the Jordan boys, essentially, like, you know, given given the key that he receives, you know. Speaker 2 (27:05) That's a great arm kid coming back as an echo at the end from Hal to Speaker 1 (27:08) John. Speaker 2 (27:08) Yeah, Speaker 1 (27:08) that's a great arm kid. But another repeated line is here in his defense, young Hal in his Tigers uniform just says, come on, which is the same exact thing that Hal Jordan said in court in Rushville when the judge is talking to him. And he's just like, in my defense, come on. You Speaker 2 (27:25) know, and Speaker 1 (27:25) it's just sort of like same as it ever was for Hal Jordan. He's still that kid in many regards. I would like to know what we mean by almost no hitter. Just throwing that out there. Okay. What is it almost? Almost no hitter. We talked, did he give a one hit? Speaker 2 (27:41) Did Speaker 1 (27:41) he give a three hits? Okay. You know, I would Speaker 2 (27:43) have some Speaker 1 (27:44) follow-up questions. If you were the coach, would you let Hal Jordan finish the game? Oh, yeah. I side with Martin and Hal at the end of the day here. Even though Little League is sort of about, like, let's let all the boys play? I mean, of Speaker 2 (27:57) course, as always, it's in a good tale. It's complex. Yeah. You know, and you feel a little bit ashamed of where you land here. But you're like, brother, it's all that matters. I was like, brother, Speaker 1 (28:05) it's all that matters. Danny Bachner stuff. How Speaker 2 (28:07) many Speaker 1 (28:07) chances Speaker 2 (28:07) do you get to complete another Danny Bachner slander from out here? It was so funny. Like, Danny fucking Bach. I'm going to hand the ball to Danny fucking Bachner. How good is Danny Bachner stuff? This was just this killed me. It was so clarifying. It really did just cement so much for us in a really, really great way. You fought your whole team like you Speaker 1 (28:27) said, same as it ever was. Right. With who this the bar fight that we watch, you know, we watch Hal take on the entire bar to, you know, to to land his ass in jail. But still, you know, like the more things change. Speaker 2 (28:37) Yeah. Glimpse Speaker 1 (28:38) of the past, even though so much. Speaker 2 (28:40) will change and does change for Hal. And there are these progressions. And that feels very true, too, to me about human nature, that there are like things that are there forever. And then there are things that evolve. Right. I thought also just like on the same as it ever was front, you know, coach saying to Martin and to Hal. Can still fix this. Just apologize. Well, if there's one thing we know how Jordan doesn't like to do, now Hallegram will wind up in Speaker 1 (29:09) a Speaker 2 (29:09) different place. But our primary Hal, like, drove all the way for a sorry you're not going to get. Yeah. Right? And so that's there, too. And in general, even something like, OK, whether it's the mocha or the squirrel, OK, were people really at my funeral? Why are you lying to me? Test later or really rich thematic moments like this. I think that the show has been very, very deft, like even expert at forging these connections and bits of very few things have been tossed. We've been saying this the whole season, like it feels like everything is purposeful. Very few things have been tossed out that are just like they're here and they're not going to matter and you're not going to feel the ripple or the parallel in some other point of the season. It's been a very satisfying aspect of watching it. Speaker 1 (29:54) It makes it all feel like a very, yeah, we were talking about sort of like the tight weave on the tapestry of the story or very like sturdy puzzle. And I feel that way about many turns of the plot here. Like the tidiness of Hal coming back, Hal Graham appearing, wondering if John's the one who killed him. insisting on seeing the sheriff. Yeah. And the sheriff just happens to be the love interest who he needs to like have this very tender scene with. But like that's such tidy storytelling. You know what I mean? Like this is a on the shorter side of runtime episode and there's just like there's just like 47 minutes. Speaker 2 (30:39) Just Speaker 1 (30:39) so lean. So lean. Speaker 2 (30:41) Okay. Brother it's all that fucking matters too. Just the turn. This is great because there are layers. Like it's comic. This is so Ringer. Speaker 1 (30:48) This is so ringercore. Brother, it's all that matters. Brother, Speaker 2 (30:50) it's all that fuckers. You're right. I actually feel we will be quoting that pretty regularly moving forward. We'll have the really tender, I hope I mattered references and then we'll have the brother, it's all that fucking matters. Brother, Speaker 1 (31:02) it's all that fucking matters is so ringer and it's so like why sometimes I am like, should I be here? Stop. Speaker 2 (31:11) Stop it. Father Speaker 1 (31:13) to Speaker 2 (31:13) Son by Queen plays. Speaker 1 (31:15) The like... Speaker 2 (31:18) there's the pitcher, but there's like the, there's the test pilot, like fighter pilot aspect of this. There's the lantern, there's the earth's first hero. The fact that you have, there's like something on, there's an, there's a, an underbelly of that, right? Brother, it's all the fucking matters. That's bad. And like dangerous and reckless. No question, right? Undeniably. And then there's a little bit of that. What level of that do you need in you to be able to like, say that ring is mine. And then if you, have it but Speaker 1 (31:50) you're terrified to lose it because it's the only thing that defines you but what's so great i mean we've been talking about this from the beginning but like what's so great about 2006 how versus 2016 how is like you know as again as we address the daddy issues all the way down the like pre-sinestro betrayal post-sinestro betrayal watching how say you've got my ring like and being upset and then being like kind of genuinely like all the pride congratulations yeah You know what I mean? Like, I trained you and now you're the Green Lantern. And it's just sort of like. That's amazing. That's incredible when he realizes John can keep him activated when Speaker 2 (32:21) he takes the Speaker 1 (32:22) ring off. Speaker 2 (32:22) Like, that's all. It is all so shocking. And yeah, so the fact that you can see this Martin defending his son moment and feel a level of like, oh, boy, that kid had a father who stood up for him. And that's like there's something heartening about that. But it's almost like it's Speaker 1 (32:35) almost like Jordan. Like, it's almost like Jordan were treated. even more into the Martin Jordan, that's all that fucking matters sort of sentiment and just clutch the baseball that much tighter. That's right. What I was going to say about like sort of where this comes versus where it would come inside of an episode of Lost is if it were an episode of Lost with 22 episodes a season, how clutching the baseball and how... grasping the ring in a fight with John would be in the side of the same episode and there would just be like a whooshing cut from one to the other. You know what Speaker 2 (33:05) I Speaker 1 (33:05) mean? The lines that they drew would be like a bit more overt because we would have time to just like be in that moment. Right. And that's not really the time that they're working with here but the parallels are could not be clearer. It's not like it's hard to draw those yourself. Father to son a great needle drop a very on the nose needle drop but I'm not mad about it. When it comes back at the end of the episode. Oh, boy. There's a bunch of lyrics that we could get into inside of this song. But here's a section. Won't you hear us sing our family song? Our family song really feels like our family curse sort of thing. Like this is this is this is our legacy. Right now we hand it on. Speaker 2 (33:45) But I've Speaker 1 (33:46) heard it all before. Take this letter that I give you. Obviously, like that's the most on the nose part about all this. Take it, Sonny. Hold it high. You won't understand a word that's in it, but you'll write it all again before you die. Again, there's like a, you know, we got some emails about this, this song and people saying like, I never thought of it as like a negative. It was always very much like you don't understand what your parents are going through until you become an adult yourself. Like there. And that's all true. Speaker 2 (34:12) Yeah. Speaker 1 (34:12) But like. You won't understand where that's in it, but you'll write it all again before you die is so to me, once again, sort of like fatalistic curse language of just sort of like, here's this letter that I'm giving my son that explains the mental health, you know, strain that runs in our family of depression. You know, it's not named, but that's what I would say. Maybe maybe it's something else. But like. you will write it all again before you die is like you're going to write your own letter to someone else. And it's going to say the same thing that mine said that my father said. And that's not what happened. I hope I hope that how the holograms theory inside this episode that how took his own life is not what is not what happened. But it is a theory we need to like consider. It's certainly in Speaker 2 (34:58) play. I think it I agree. It's something we have to consider. And it's it feels possible. I think the fact that we move through a series of. theories from Halligram, as Speaker 1 (35:10) you noted, the John question is real. Speaker 2 (35:13) He's really like, she killed me about Carrie. And then what he says about himself, and it's just such a, you know, a heart-wrenching sequence. I, you know, there's a moment where Hal says, the Halligram says to John. about Zoe when they're talking through the Manhunter stuff. Oh, Hal killed her and that's why you hate him. The gut. The gut can be wrong. The hologram's gut is not right in this episode