‘Lanterns’ Episode 5 Deep Dive
House of R
Mal and Jo dive into the intense fifth episode of 'Lanterns,' analyzing pivotal character moments, escalating action, and deepening mysterie
Key takeaways
- The episode functions as a climactic battle sequence with significant emotional and narrative weight.
- Hal and John's final confrontation is portrayed as the central action moment, overshadowing other visual effects or set pieces.
Main topics
- Hal and John's final confrontation
- Moral ambiguity of characters' choices
Notable quotes
"I tend to find that strangers who give me a couple hundred thousand dollars, no strings attached, usually turn out to be the bad guys."
Conclusion
As the season nears its end, Mal and Jo emphasize that character dynamics
Transcript preview
Speaker 2 (0:05) Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson, and she is someone who has experienced the pleasures of the galaxy. It's Mallory Rubin. You know, it's less about preference and more about opportunity. Set them up, knock them down. It's Lanterns, episode five. Mallory and I are here to talk about the latest episode of the HBO series, Lanterns. We're really excited to dive deep into that right after this. Programming reminders. Speaker 2 (0:43) It's almost your birthday. Sheesh. I'm old. You're beautiful and luminous. I'm Speaker 1 (0:50) washed. Speaker 2 (0:51) Your creamy coolness will always delight me. It's almost your birthday and we're doing a very special episode for your birthday later this week, which is Mallory Rubin Pivot to Horror Special. That's right. We're seeing Resident Evil. Yes. We're going to talk about that. Yeah. You're going to watch it from my lap, as we mentioned on the BuffyPod last week. Speaker 1 (1:11) Yeah. Speaker 2 (1:12) And then we're also going to talk about some of the other horror movies that you've been watching lately. And then what I was going to ask the bad babies to do, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com, is send some other suggestions of other horror movies that you should maybe check out. You have watched Nosferatu. Yes, and Weapons. And Weapons. You're going to watch Obsession. I am. Maybe Backrooms. If time Speaker 1 (1:33) permitting, yeah. Speaker 2 (1:34) But like what are some other recent horror classics that you think Malia would enjoy that hopefully does not have any animal mutilation in it? I Speaker 1 (1:41) would prefer to avoid that, though I know that's waiting for me in one of the films we just mentioned. Yes. Speaker 2 (1:45) The V-V-V-Vitch you're thinking of watching? That was, I would say... Speaker 1 (1:49) There were a lot of recommendations to check that out in the Instagram comments for the little, the weapons IG reel that I posted. You know, I've just dipped a toe into the bloody waters. Let's take the plunge. I'm eager to keep waiting Speaker 2 (2:07) for this. Speaker 1 (2:08) Let's just dive in Speaker 2 (2:09) like Colin Firth's Mr. Darcy in a cool, cool pond, but make it horror movies. So that's what we're doing later this week. I'm Speaker 1 (2:16) excited. Speaker 2 (2:16) I am. And then Speaker 1 (2:17) more. Speaker 2 (2:18) Terrified but excited. Speaker 1 (2:19) Yeah. Speaker 2 (2:20) And something else that I haven't figured out yet while you're gone on vacation. That's right. Speaker 1 (2:25) Will you just do a direct-to-camera reflection on how much you miss me while I'm gone? It's the Speaker 2 (2:31) Avengers Endgame re-release, right? That's right. So maybe I'll just spend the podcast recounting the plot of Avengers Endgame. Does that sound like a good use of my time? Just solo into the camera? Sounds Speaker 1 (2:45) like it would be a pretty popular podcast, honestly. Speaker 2 (2:46) And I Speaker 1 (2:46) feel like Speaker 2 (2:47) the Speaker 1 (2:47) runtime will be about correct for one of our podcasts. Yeah. So, you know. Sounds great. I look forward to consuming it from afar. I'll miss you while I'm gone. When I get back, we get to, I mean, we're just mere days away at that point from Vision Quest. We get to revisit WandaVision. What a thrill. What a time. It's your birthday, then you're going on Speaker 2 (3:04) vacation, and then it's our anniversary, and then it's my birthday. Speaker 1 (3:07) Half a decade together. That's wild. We have yet to make a dinner plan. We need to do that. Sure. We need to settle on a date night, you know? Should we invite the team? Yes. They're here Speaker 2 (3:20) and they're listening to us. So yes, I think we should invite them. Speaker 2 (3:24) You guys available? Let us know. Lanterns, episode five is what's coming up. Why don't you follow the pod wherever you follow podcasts? Why don't you follow us on social at houseofourpod. Do it. As I mentioned, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Spoiler warning, Lanterns, episode five, comic book context, here and there, perhaps. Not much today, honestly. Yeah. And any sort of like, deeper comic lore or especially like this episode's really primed for Theory Corner. Speaker 1 (4:01) Sure. Speaker 2 (4:01) So we're going to put Theory Corner in the sort of bottom section of the pod, which is sort of where the comic book lore, I mean, not to say we won't touch upon it here and there, obviously, but I'm saving my like biggest pitch unless I get impatient and just sort of like, you know, pour it all out earlier. Yeah. Until later. There's no spoilers there. It's just. rampant speculation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I feel like we got a lot of clues in this episode. Speaker 1 (4:24) Yeah, yeah. I don't think I'll be able to wait until the end of the podcast No, not that you have to, Speaker 2 (4:28) but like, no, no, we'll talk about it. I'm just saying like, will I wait to lay out my full case? Maybe. Intriguing. Speaker 1 (4:35) Intriguing. Speaker 2 (4:36) Let's go now to the opening snapshot. Speaker 2 (4:46) All right, starting with our overall impressions of episode five. Many people on the internet are saying the episode title is Lights Out. We're recording this in advance. It's Speaker 1 (4:55) not Speaker 2 (4:55) been officially listed anywhere, so that might not be the name of the episode at all, but that is what I am seeing. What we do know from the credits on our screener is that this was directed, again, by Gita Patel and written by Justin Britt Gibson. Justin's a great writer. Speaker 2 (5:12) But something that I didn't realize until I was doing research for this episode is that he is the brother of actor Daryl Britt Gibson, who played Bishop on Euphoria, among other things. I love Daryl Britt Gibson. And so that's just like really fun. And then they are the sons of Donna Britt, who is an incredible writer. So this is a very talented family, which I didn't know. But Justin Britt Gibson wrote this episode. Mallory Rubin. Speaker 1 (5:35) I Speaker 2 (5:35) would just say in any other show, we would call this like the battle episode. Would you not agree? Speaker 1 (5:39) How Speaker 2 (5:39) does this episode work for you? Does it feel like a battle episode? And if it's so, how does it compare to sort of some of the other ones that we often talk about? Speaker 1 (5:47) Yeah, I mean, I think there's a version of this season where this is the finale. I was surprised in a good way by how much happened in this episode and how consequential not only the action was, but the character beats. You know, we've been talking since the... pilot called pilot about the glimpses we got at the end sequence that jumped to 2026 of the decimated Macon Ranch and like wondering when we were going to see that. Did it happen somewhere between the 2016? Speaker 2 (6:17) Do you Speaker 1 (6:17) think Daily Ben is okay? Speaker 1 (6:20) Ailey Ben on my mind throughout. In Smithereens, I believe. I mean, so many moments to think back on Waylon because of all of the, I've activated my skeletal bomb and I'm prepared to detonate. And so then, of course, anytime you think of Waylon, you think of Bailey, the alien, Bailey. And then you think of Ailey Ben and all of our really good jokes about. Alien at the Macon Ranch. I'm so sorry. You were talking about the decimated Macon Ranch. I just was wondering when that was going to happen. Was it going to happen in the 2016? Not only in the show, but in the canonical timeline, right? I would not have predicted episode five. So that was fun and cool. I thought that the action itself, you know, the dark cloud, the darkness, like vision cam and stuff like that. Video Speaker 2 (7:04) game, Speaker 1 (7:04) POV, first person Speaker 2 (7:05) shooter sort of stuff. Yeah, Speaker 1 (7:07) that was... Fine, but I mean, less riveting than the absolutely absorbing one-on-one knock-down, drag-out, beat-down fight between Hal and John, which was the real action. And I think in a way that applies to the show overall, where these individual dynamics are the thing that have been so delicious. So coming out of what seems like largely resolution, I mean, spoilers, we said, like, William Macon is dead. His human heart was cut out of his chest. Zoe Macon. Dead. Crystal heart. Caught out of the chest. Bullet through the brain. Speaker 1 (7:41) Does that mean we're done with them? Anton, dead. Speaker 2 (7:46) Exploded. Speaker 1 (7:47) Went down sad. Speaker 2 (7:49) I don't know. Had some great Speaker 1 (7:50) scenes, but then at the very end, exploded in a little cyclone. That Speaker 2 (7:55) seems like a really fun way to go. Speaker 1 (7:57) Fun? Do you think he kind of went, wee, right before he died? Probably. That was probably. We just Speaker 2 (8:02) didn't hear it over the beeping. He had that kind of wee energy, don't you think? Yeah, we Speaker 1 (8:04) just couldn't hear it over the beeping of the skeletal bomb. And the dark, and the sound of the Speaker 2 (8:09) dark. Exactly, the whooshing of Smoke Monster. Speaker 1 (8:12) You know, I overall, I thought like the back half of this episode, the sequence between John and Hal, also the John-Hal car scene at the beginning, all of the John-Hal stuff was really great. I thought the final John stretch of this episode, the decision that he makes to reject the ring, the scene with John and Liana, I thought that was just riveting. It was wonderful. I thought that on the Manhunter front. Speaker 1 (8:35) Some of those scenes I thought were really great. Some of them did not work as well for me. And also I have some sort of like in-story logic questions about the things the characters are doing as a result of those scenes that I'm like eager to talk through today. Yeah. So overall, I liked the episode. I thought it was really action-packed and fun and like took the characters to at this point in the season and honestly kind of overall a surprising place. So I'm really excited to see where this goes from here. I think we both, as we were alluding to in the intro, have a, there's maybe another Manhunter candidate inside of this episode, right? At least one. Speaker 2 (9:12) Yeah. And Speaker 1 (9:12) so I don't know that we're finished with. The Manhunter of it all, I don't necessarily know that. But the way that this episode went did at least open up the possibility of are we moving out of Manhunter into a larger Guardian Sinestro like finish to the season Speaker 2 (9:29) potentially? I don't know. But I also think like if we think back to that True Detective comp that we started with. Yeah. Let's go back to season one. In season one of True Detective and in season two and in season three. But like in season one especially, right, you've got the two timelines. Speaker 1 (9:45) And you're Speaker 2 (9:46) really solving the same case across time in both timelines. And everything you thought you resolved in the previous timeline or left open-ended or whatever gets for real resolved in the present day. And so if they're like, got it, got them, found the Manhunter in 2016, I really feel like 2026 is like, oops, we left a Manhunter on the ground and we got to figure out where that person is. Should Speaker 1 (10:08) we just say right now, like, we're on Noah Watch? I mean, we've been on Noah Watch. We have been the whole time. I think it's impossible. Frankly, to the point where there were so many indicators in this episode that it could Speaker 2 (10:18) be confusing Speaker 1 (10:19) to the, like, wait, is that not the Speaker 2 (10:21) case? I don't think they're trying to hide it. Yeah. How that manifests, I think, will be interesting. We'll go through the clues as we approach those scenes. I think Zoe giving him, like, a what did I teach you, like, lecture. Speaker 1 (10:32) For Speaker 2 (10:32) sure. And, Speaker 1 (10:34) like, Billy being Speaker 2 (10:34) kept back to basically Speaker 1 (10:37) guard him. But also a lot of Carrie stuff, too. I think. Speaker 2 (10:42) I think Billy is also a Manhunter, but a less successful one. Speaker 1 (10:47) Tough for Billy. Yeah. Speaker 2 (10:48) Because here's, okay, fine. You're right. I am impatient. It's hard not to talk about. If, I think there's a lot of like, bum, bum, bum. But I do think. When we're regrowing John's skin and she's like, the machine took a little tissue sample of you, right? Yeah. Which the machine also probably did when it cured, making seniors cancer. Yeah. And which the machine also did when it regrew Carrie's pinky. That's right. So my thought is when the machine takes a tissue sample, it grows a Manhunter out of that tissue sample. So that Billy is the offspring of. Megan Sr. and that Noah is Carrie's Speaker 1 (11:28) offspring. This is my theory as well. It does also make me... Speaker 2 (11:30) And Speaker 1 (11:30) it would Speaker 2 (11:31) grow a John, but an alien blew up their machine. Well, it still makes me nervous. Oh, yeah. I am deeply nervous that the machine has his DNA sample. Yeah, Speaker 1 (11:43) tissue and DNA, which is worrying, obviously. And how, you know, the weenie blew up. They were, I mean... Obviously, a lot of the town blew up. How much of the storage at the hospital is made Speaker 2 (11:56) to Speaker 1 (11:56) withstand an Speaker 2 (11:57) attack? How many people besides Billy and Noah? Like, Billy and Noah for sure, I think. I would say that this episode, Speaker 1 (12:05) and we will, every time we get in a scene, Speaker 2 (12:06) we'll hit the Speaker 1 (12:07) evidence. I would say coming out of this episode, I would put the Noah likelihood at like... 100 %? 99 %? I Speaker 2 (12:14) would Speaker 1 (12:14) put Noah Speaker 2 (12:14) at like 98 % and I would put Billy at like 89, 85, something like that. Speaker 1 (12:21) 75. Speaker 2 (12:22) Just like a less, like a jankier one. Less successful is incredible. Speaker 1 (12:26) This is Speaker 2 (12:26) so dumb. And that's why I feel like, I feel like Zoe's like, oh, I'm going to take more, I'm going to be more proactive with Noah because we didn't do a great job with Billy, but I'm going to do a better job. Wouldn't that fit the Speaker 1 (12:37) overall story of Stardom Young, you know? Speaker 1 (12:41) What about you? What did you think of Speaker 2 (12:42) the episode overall? I loved this episode. And one of the reasons I loved it is because, you know, historically I bump on quote unquote battle episodes when I don't, I think the action is just there for action's sake. You made the point about like all of this is, a lot of this is anchored in character stuff. And I think that's not just true. That's not, definitely not just true for Hal and John. But, you know, something that they said in the official podcast last week is they were talking about thinking about the story of Hal and John as a love story. And I remember years ago talking to Damon Lindelof about Hacks. And he was like, well, Hacks is a love story. Which he said, I think, in season one even before it was, like, so clear that that's what Hacks was about. You know what I mean? But he's like, but all stories are love stories. And so that's, like, that's just a way that Damon, who's certainly not the only, like, brain in this room. But, like, that's the way that Damon likes to approach these stories. So even, like, you know. If it's Kevin and Nora and leftovers, it's a more overt love story. But regardless, this is something that like he is deeply interested, which is just sort of like. In falling in love with someone else, you discover yourself and all these other things. And so that's not just Hal and John and the idea of them sort of falling in love with each other, not romantically, but just sort of like meeting each other, knowing each other, respecting each other, falling out with each other. But also the way that like heartbreak and romance. Speaker 2 (14:06) infuses all these other action beats. The way that, like, Macon Senior is willing to, like, lay his heart on the line for Zoe because he loves her. The way that Anton's vengeance mission is not just, you wiped out all my people, but, like, this is a jilted ex-lover. This is a breakup vengeance, you know? And then John crying as he takes the kill shot on Zoe. So this is just sort of, like, romance and devastation across the board, not to mention your beloved Carrie and Hal. And so it's just, like, it's that. juice inside of the action beats you know that the the the video game stretch was just like not for me but like it's not for me but like everything else was like so for me that I just really love this episode I Speaker 1 (14:48) thought those scenes the Zoe Macon phone call the the goodbye um the Anton and Macon Speaker 2 (14:57) yeah Speaker 1 (14:57) I thought they were so good that it actually made me a little mad that we hadn't gotten more moments between those characters previously to really appreciate the relationship. I just thought it was incredible. So I'm really eager to talk about the scenes. I loved them as well. I thought the John Zoe stuff was fantastic. Really the only... Yeah, what are you bumping on? The Carrie opening scene did not really work for me. I have some questions about it. It probably was the bangs. They were distracting. And then I just have some like... Speaker 1 (15:30) cohesion in the logic of what Zoe is doing and when, but I'm very open to the fact that it's a little... Speaker 1 (15:39) unclear potentially still because there is an ongoing mystery that it actually hasn't all been resolved. And so that's potentially actually very exciting and satisfying. It's possible that all of my questions, which are very few to be clear, it's Speaker 2 (15:52) like Speaker 1 (15:52) two, are addressed over the course of the podcast. Overall, I thought the episode was wonderful. Like, it's funny, you know, we finished watching and I just like turned out and we're both like at the same time, another banger. It's just every episode this season has been really, really good. And I... I think, again, the variance episode to episode while crafting a very propulsive and cohesive story where we feel like we have made a major progress individually for characters and inside of their relationships with each other. Each episode has done something distinct. That's, like, very difficult to achieve. Absolutely. So I just am very impressed with it overall. I have, like... a lot of sadness in my heart in a way that I love, right? I love that I'm so invested in like the Hal-John relationship already. And so watching what transpires between them in this episode, I found completely wrenching. And I think Speaker 2 (16:44) also the, what we talked about from the start, which is just the shadow of Hal's death and of the many mysteries that we have left to answer, one is... do these guys reconcile? Does John call Hal up and be like, guess what? I told him I didn't want it. You don't have the ring, but I don't have the ring either. And don't, doesn't Laura Linney suck? You know what I mean? Like, can we bond over that? Does that happen before Hal dies? Do they even get to talk again at all? I really hope so. I mean, that would Speaker 1 (17:12) be absolutely. Speaker 2 (17:14) Yeah. That Speaker 1 (17:15) would be like devastating. But we don't know. But we don't know. Speaker 2 (17:18) And so that potential of like this never gets resolved and that the John we meet in 2026 is a John who's carrying around the regret of an unresolved conflict or something with Speaker 1 (17:29) him is potentially very juicy. Yes. Speaker 2 (17:33) Okay. Mailbag, really quick rapid fire mailbag before we get into the deep dive. Our listener, Rosie, I just thought this just cracked me up. Rosie wrote in to say, was Sinestro always called that? Because like his name is just Sinister, right? No one knew he was bad. I guess it's the same as walking around being named Doom, question mark. Doom is certainly, yeah. Or like, I don't know. It has Speaker 1 (17:52) real brotherhood of evil mutants vibes as well. Maleficent, you know what I mean? Like it's Speaker 2 (17:59) just the vibe. I feel like, uh. As an experiment. Maybe people have done this. Never mind. This is going to go poorly. Let's move on. Okay. Matt is saying, Matt wrote in asking for clarification on the hologram works. Okay. And. I wanted to see the Speaker 1 (18:14) little like the. The chip. Yeah. That was a. Speaker 2 (18:16) Like Speaker 1 (18:16) he whittled it. What it really reminded me of was like fire making on Survivor. Oh, sure. You know, the way you like strike the flint to send a little spark. Yeah. Do you think Speaker 2 (18:25) that Speaker 1 (18:25) Hal Jordan is a big Survivor guy? No. Give me a scene between Hal and Jeff Probst right now. Zero percent Hal watches Survivor. But I think he whittles like my grandpa used to whittle. It Speaker 2 (18:36) reminded me of whittling, but yeah, it's also very like fire-making sparky. But like my question is, didn't it seem like a little chip of the ring came off with that? Maybe just like an effervescent spark, but I was just like, are you chipping away at your ring, buddy? Like how many times can you activate sentry protocol? Well, listen, put Speaker 1 (18:55) it. Where exactly on the blind ranking, you know, the whole blind ranking trend is a thing that I don't totally understand, by the way, on the Internet. But it's everywhere. Maybe we'll do one for social and see how it goes. It's like Speaker 2 (19:08) two years old or maybe like four. Yeah, but I just got to just get to your Instagram. Speaker 1 (19:13) No, but it feels very, very prominent somehow right now in a way that made me feel it was newer than it apparently is. Speaker 1 (19:24) Look, we knew that the charge, the ring's ability to hold a charge, this was like the checkoffs. Oh, God, the ring's out of charge. I've got some notes for our guy Hal Jordan on his readiness and tactics and planning, as we always do. You know, Hal's a flawed character. It's part of the appeal. Part of what makes him interesting. The ring. We made the iPhone comp already. We made the charger comp already. We talked about this earlier in the season. The ring and the heat of battle being like, 5 % bud. We're out of juice, bud. And Hal having to say no shit. The ring is officially at, it's not just the iPhone comp, it's like the iPhone that's a couple years old and the new iOS update has rendered it incapable of properly functioning because it can't run liquid glass. You could probably tell from this how old my phone is. The very specific sentence and comment. So it's like, this is the best that we can do? Really? With the power of the ring, we need to, what if you're actually out in fucking space? Now, is this just about Hal not having a shit together? I mean, where are you supposed to hold, is the lantern supposed to be on your belt at all times? Like you're an old-timey prospector? These Speaker 2 (20:29) guys have Speaker 1 (20:29) fucking pocket dimensions. Okay, yeah. So get Speaker 2 (20:31) like a pocket in your suit that's actually a pocket dimension and keep the lantern there. Yeah. The lantern should be on your, if you can hide it somewhere and it's not clanking around on your hip, you should have your lantern on your person at all times. I mean, I agree. Speaker 1 (20:44) So shoddy work from hell as usual. But like, this is just a real limit. Speaker 2 (20:48) Whomst among us has not been caught out without our charger? It is relatable content. It really is. Did Arjuna get a text from you during Comic-Con that said, can you bring a charger to the bar? And did he bring a charger to the bar? Yes. And then you left it Speaker 1 (21:00) there. And Speaker 2 (21:00) then I left it there. Yeah, Speaker 1 (21:01) I Speaker 2 (21:01) remember this. So, you know, don't give me a lantern that's for fucking sure. Arjuna's like completely... That's fine face when I said that. Anyway, so here's our understanding. It's Speaker 1 (21:18) a Speaker 2 (21:18) backup of Hal's consciousness. So sort of like a Hal-flavored Speaker 1 (21:21) AI. Speaker 2 (21:21) So it's not like, the question was like, how can it know certain things? It's not just a Hal. It's AI with like a Hal skin on it with like a Hal Speaker 1 (21:32) flavor. Would you not say? This sounds. Delicious and very appealing. Yeah. And, you know, the like uploaded to the cloud consciousness part of it is where the awareness of how specific experiences come from. But yeah, the idea of being connected to some larger like web, right? Yeah. I think the fact that like when the hologram interacts with John in the first episode, he has to learn through the course of that conversation. what year it is indicates that he's not... He's not been used. And he's thus not updating. And is... No, Speaker 2 (22:08) I mean, like, clearly not updating. The hair is a different color. Speaker 1 (22:11) But, like... But I mean, like, he's not updating beyond the Hal, direct Hal upload either. Like, he's not, like, current on all circumstances in the world outside of Hal's direct experience. Right. It seems like he's, like, air-gapped. That's not what air-gapping is. Air-gap means you were never connected, and I know that. But it seemed like he's, like, basically, like... offline until he's activated, right? Or uploaded? I guess, but he's, but Speaker 2 (22:36) why was, he was on the alert for the aliens hail in Rushville. Right. That's right. So like, that was sort of the source of this question was like, how could the hologram know about the aliens in Rushville? And I guess my answer was like, he left an AI monitoring it and that AI just happens to like. look and talk and think like Kyle Chandler's Hal Jordan. Speaker 1 (22:56) Yeah. But then he's not. So he's aware of like things in Rushville, but he's not like it. It's maybe just woke him up when like Speaker 2 (23:04) something weird happened in Rushville. I don't know. I Speaker 1 (23:07) feel like that like has to be the case because otherwise it doesn't totally track that in that conversation with John. He's like, where are we in time? The reality, though, is this is just a Speaker 2 (23:17) chance for me to take a victory. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do it. On a reference, which I said I thought the hologram was inspired by Quantum Leap. And we had the chance to ask Damon Lindelof this off pod. And he said, indeed, it was inspired by Quantum Leap and also Ghost, which is Speaker 1 (23:35) interesting. Speaker 2 (23:36) But Quantum Leap. And then he had the young writers in the room watch Quantum Leap. And they were like, hey, this show isn't very good. And he was like, damn, that hurts. Speaker 2 (23:46) A lot of Speaker 1 (23:46) ghost references lately. Blawdron brought up ghosts when we were talking to him about Chad Powers on Prestige. It's referenced in Practical Magic 2. How was that? You know, Lee Pace sure is hot. Speaker 2 (23:58) He is. It's just unbelievable. The wigs are great. And the production design is wonderful. You've Speaker 1 (24:03) yet to say anything about the movie. Speaker 2 (24:05) Those are all parts of the movie. Speaker 1 (24:07) About the Speaker 2 (24:07) quality of Speaker 1 (24:09) the Speaker 2 (24:09) film? The story? Okay. More Joey King forward than I was anticipating. Interesting. Did it Speaker 1 (24:13) work for you in terms of just nostalgia? I like Practical Magic. I know. But it's not like my Speaker 2 (24:18) favorite movie ever. Did you Speaker 1 (24:19) pick Practical Magic 2 for your hype draft? I sure did. But Speaker 2 (24:23) I was just being myself. That was after I picked The Vampire Listat. And I was like, oh, it's time to just lean into vampires and witches. I was just in. I was just spitting out at that point. Yes, it's in my hype draft. I love it. It's going to make some money. Okay. My screen was full. People seem to be having a good time. I don't think it's a great movie. But I think it's wildly unnecessary. Lee Pace is extremely hot. I enjoyed watching it. When the old score kicks in, you're just sort of like, ah, hocus pocus. Practical magic. It's that time. Speaker 1 (24:50) A lot of practical magic reels in my Instagram last night, and I wondered why. And then, of course, very quickly, I realized, Leapace. Even though he wasn't really in any of those videos, Speaker 2 (25:00) connected Speaker 1 (25:01) via the algorithm. Anyway, the point is, I was right about Quantum Leap being an inspo for Speaker 2 (25:05) Hologram, and it feels really good. Thanks so much. Good Speaker 1 (25:07) work, dude. Speaker 2 (25:07) Appreciate it. Love my dusty old references being important. Okay. I was there. Adam wrote in with some well actually about the weenie, which I thought was really interesting. Oh, Speaker 1 (25:18) okay. Speaker 2 (25:19) Adam says, I currently work for Walt Disney Parks and Resorts on the team that runs daily operations at Disneyland. But earlier in my career, I was responsible for teaching new hires. We covered the idea of the weenie, a famous Walt Disney concept that was a bit misrepresented in this episode. Walt got the idea from his dog, whom he could lead anywhere with a weenie. Wanted to come inside, just put a weenie there, need him in the car, show him a weenie, et cetera, et cetera. The weenie isn't a central location that everything is built around. That is a separate concept of Disney theme park construction called the hub. Almost all Disney parks have one. It's a central location where all the other lands bridge off of. At Disneyland, that's where, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, a weenie is actually an attraction or a piece of infrastructure that is highly kinetic and draws your attention away from the central hub and into a new area. Basically, it is a visual magnet. At Disneyland, examples include the Astro Orbiter in Tomorrowland, the whirling lights of the carousel as seen through the castle, the golden spires of the Mark Twain riverboat. As it docks in Frontierland. So, I think they were kind of using it both ways in the episode. Like, this idea of, because they were calling, like, the thing that was being hidden the weenie. Speaker 1 (26:21) Yes. Speaker 2 (26:22) And compared it to like Cinderella's Castle, I think, right? That's Speaker 1 (26:25) right, Speaker 2 (26:25) yeah. Speaker 1 (26:26) Or Sleeping Beauty's Castle. Sleeping Speaker 2 (26:27) Beauty's Castle, where in fact the weenie is like the helicopter. It was like what's supposed to draw your eye to Speaker 1 (26:35) a Speaker 2 (26:36) certain thing. And it was interesting on the official podcast because the writer of that episode did use it sort of correctly on the podcast, but it's sort of... Anyway, here's the thing. Speaker 1 (26:45) led to an incredibly rich series of weenie jokes in the rest of the episode. And that's Speaker 2 (26:50) what Speaker 1 (26:50) really matters. All of which I appreciated and enjoyed. I just thought that was interesting Speaker 2 (26:54) Disney lore and I wanted to share it. The hub versus the weenie, two different concepts inside of the park. I'm not like a huge amusement park head. You're not a Disney adult? I know. Well, not, that's a different thing. I mean, like the people were obsessed with like. Yeah. And watch like YouTube Speaker 1 (27:09) videos about Speaker 2 (27:10) all the various parks. Yeah. I'm not like one of those people, but I do think the fact that there is like a science behind the layout of all these things is very interesting to Speaker 1 (27:17) me. Speaker 2 (27:17) Psychologically interesting Speaker 1 (27:18) to me. Okay. Speaker 2 (27:20) Many listeners in the comments and our emails let us know that we got the movie reference incorrect, they believe, in last week's episode. Yeah. We had wondered if they were referencing Raiders of the Lost Ark. Right. I suggested perhaps Monuments Men or Lethal Weapon 2. But a lot of our listeners believe that the reference was set it off, which they literally say. They do. If you move, it'll set it off. Yeah. Good movie. Great movie. Not familiar with Speaker 1 (27:45) this film. It's a great movie. Haven't seen it. Didn't occur to me. I thought Speaker 2 (27:49) for sure they were referencing the device. Yeah. But they were referencing the phrase that they just said. Yeah. It's a great movie. Another listener. A couple of our listeners wrote in about a number of other female lanterns. I think. Speaker 2 (28:05) Thinking, perhaps I misspoke and said that Jessica Cruz is the only female lantern. I guess I was just talking about her as one female lantern. There have been several others in our list. I just wanted to make sure that we knew that that was the case. Women can be lanterns too. Love it. Speaker 1 (28:19) Of the green Speaker 2 (28:19) variety. Anything else you want to mention before we get into the deep dive? Speaker 1 (28:27) I don't think so. I'm sort of in real time trying to figure out my power ranking of favorite episodes so far because they've all been so good. But maybe we do that at the end of the season. Or maybe we never do it. They've really just all been good. I'm not as like... Good season of Speaker 2 (28:40) TV so far. I'm not as high as you are on like every single one, but I do think this was fantastic. I think the pilot was really good. And I think having that where it's just sort of like if you start... really strong, you've got some strong middle, and as long as they finish strong, then like... I know, it's exciting. It doesn't feel like it's diving off any kind of cliff, which is sort of our Speaker 1 (29:01) fear. No, the Speaker 2 (29:01) opposite, if anything. Yeah, it really feels like we've got Speaker 1 (29:03) serious momentum heading into the final three of the season and, you know, whatever awaits for the Lanternsverse beyond that. So it's just, it's exciting. It's been an exciting season to watch and talk about, and I'm hyped to see where it goes from here. Let's go now to the deep dive. Speaker 2 (29:25) All right, Carrie joins the Flashback Bangs Hall of Fame. Look, you're Speaker 1 (29:30) on my mind often. Rarely. Yeah. Has there been such a powerful, undeniable incursion into the inner sanctum of my mind than Speaker 2 (29:43) when Speaker 1 (29:43) I saw these bangs? Speaker 2 (29:45) You were thinking of me and you were thinking of Dr. Jack Shepard. Yes, exactly. I mean, this is going to be, I assume, a historic. wig watch TM with Joanna Robinson TM. I don't think there's much. I think we can all see what's happening with this wig. Not much Speaker 1 (30:00) scholarship required here. Speaker 2 (30:02) I mean, here's the gold star I will give them. Yeah. They made fun of it in advance. You know? For Hal to say last week, I see why you dished the bangs. They're making fun of their flashback wig in advance. And for that, I give them all the credit Speaker 1 (30:14) in the world. Right. So when Speaker 2 (30:16) she showed up, I was like. That's just funny, honestly. Speaker 1 (30:19) Also just incredible to get the like close-up shot in the rearview mirror in the car first so that there's just, it's like, they're so high and it's just bangs. And then we get to appreciate the whole, you know, the leather jacket, the boots, the whole hairdo in full. Also just the 2007, you know, the Chiron popping up, the timeline, like we're out of the sixes. So that's also kind of discombobulating in a fun way. Yeah. Maybe Speaker 2 (30:46) the big things that happen in Carrie's life happened on the 7s instead of the 6s. Could be. Anyway, the bangs are here. Cat eyes sharp enough to kill a man. Also, the eyeliner's here. Making her way to Rushville. Car breaks down. She pushes it. She's a badass, right? She's got the leather. She pushes her car to the cafe. We get to go Speaker 1 (31:05) past the Rushville sign, 1001. The population of Rushville, a very... effective way ahead of what is to come to just like remind you say like oh small town but then you're like a thousand people were there as this place was just blown to bits right so that was all good good stuff like that Speaker 2 (31:22) um two goons from gotham intimidate her at the counter task Speaker 1 (31:27) crossover when sunday night hbo biker gang possibilities penguin Speaker 2 (31:33) just asking questions Speaker 1 (31:34) penguin Speaker 2 (31:35) meets task meets lanterns i Speaker 1 (31:37) am Speaker 2 (31:37) in Speaker 1 (31:38) Okay. Speaker 2 (31:38) I'm in. They all have to talk a bit more like our guy Colin Farrell, though. Speaker 1 (31:43) Okay, I thought you were going to say like Carrie, and I was going to say that I'm back out. But if it's like Oz, back in. Speaker 2 (31:49) So Carrie insists to them that she's not a thief, and they claim it's in the genes, right? Like father, like daughter, essentially. It's in the genes. Interesting. Feels like first of many just Speaker 1 (32:00) sort of, huh. Speaker 2 (32:01) Yeah. You know, that's obviously, they're not talking about Manhunter cloning machines, but, you know, there's this idea. And what's really important here is that Carrie lets us know, I mean, she's being pursued for the sins of her father, sort of according to her. Speaker 1 (32:17) But also, Speaker 2 (32:17) her dad sucked. Even before he did all of this, she was like, guess what? He was never much of a father to me anyway. Yeah. So when Carrie is talking about her son Noah, talking about her role as a mother, like, this is a big, I have something, a bit to prove here. Right? My dad sucked. I know what it's like to have a parent who's not looking out for you all the time. That is not the person I want to be. Speaker 1 (32:39) Right. Yeah. I liked that. Part of it giving us a little bit of a glimpse into Carrie's just overall history and personal history and what the Gotham flight was sparked by and why. And also just honestly, like, learning how recent that was to the primary timeline of the show, which even though we've moved forward into 2026 at the beginning of episode one, like, the show is largely, and we've moved into the past, the show is largely set in 2016. So this is, like, within a decade of that, which was... Is Noah nine? Like, did they... Cut off the pinky and clone the kid? Well, so in the 2026 ending of episode one, Carrie tells John when he asks how Noah's doing, he's all state. So that makes me... In high school. He's in high school still. So he's like... Could be 18. 17 or 18. Yeah. So like that's 10 years after the 2016 timeline. So it could Speaker 2 (33:31) be Speaker 1 (33:31) 8. 7 or 8? Yeah. Speaker 2 (33:33) Okay. Does Speaker 1 (33:33) that kid look 7 or 8? I can never tell. I don't know. I guess so. Yeah. Speaker 1 (33:38) I'm just saying it wasn't Speaker 2 (33:39) long before Speaker 1 (33:40) this Speaker 2 (33:41) kid arrived, Speaker 1 (33:42) after Speaker 2 (33:42) she arrived to Rushville. Yes. That's Speaker 1 (33:43) the Speaker 2 (33:43) point. Speaker 1 (33:45) One of the things I didn't love about this opening scene, which just kind of couldn't measure up to the rest of the episode for me, I don't know. I don't necessarily think other people are going to feel this way about it, but I found the, like, on the one hand, the connected DC universe thing is something I like. This is something we like in comic book storytelling. It's all kind of like... always fun to like think about Gotham, right? We had talked at the very beginning of the season, okay, Carrie Kane, what family might Carrie be from, the Kane family in Gotham. That's interesting to think about the connection to Martha Wayne, et cetera. We'd like talked about some of this earlier in the season. Speaker 1 (34:23) I thought that something about the, like, repeated moments of invoking her father and the thing that he had done and these ties to the crime families and, like, but without actually telling us anything about who these people were to be, like, sort of clunky and weird. Like, it felt like a way to wink to a larger DC universe and give us some of that fun connective tissue without... And maybe that clarity will come, but it doesn't really feel like it's relevant to the story. Oh, I would far prefer Speaker 2 (34:52) this to, like, her being a secret maroney or something. You know, like, I don't want any of that. But then I'm like, why Speaker 1 (34:58) do we need this, like, at all? Speaker 2 (34:59) Because we need to know why she's on the run. That she has, she comes from a criminal background, I think, is important. Yeah. Speaker 1 (35:08) And Speaker 2 (35:08) then I think. her issue, her daddy issues are important. They're just trying to give us a bunch of like really quick background. I'm not saying it's the smoothest thing it's ever been. It Speaker 1 (35:17) was a Speaker 2 (35:17) little Speaker 1 (35:17) too, it just like tipped a degree or two into like multiple mentions of the dad. I felt like I kind of couldn't help then as a consumer of these stories be like, okay, we've talked about the Kane family possibility. Are they, who are the biker gang? Is this like, um. You know, is it a street demons group or the bikers that are working for the Falcons or the Maronis? Like, I don't know. They triggered your BBY brain. Kind Speaker 2 (35:43) of. And Speaker 1 (35:43) it just didn't do that to me. Speaker 2 (35:45) And I would push back a little bit because, like, it's literally, like, three lines before Zoe shows up to, like. crack a neck like it's so quick the Speaker 1 (35:53) end which I have another question about the zoe biker dude the goon bargain that they make at the end of that but like the fact that that guy goes back into that universe leaves open the possibility that those characters could come into play in this story which like doesn't feel like it but I don't think they should it doesn't feel like that belongs in this story so then I don't know it just felt like a little less um Speaker 1 (36:20) expertly rooted in the place and identity and voice and tone of the show than like maybe every single other scene we'd gotten to this point. At Speaker 2 (36:29) least for me. We would prefer that she not be from Gotham at all. Speaker 1 (36:34) Not necessarily, because again, I kind of like, I feel like this felt like a little bit twixt in between and what it was trying to do, maybe. I don't know. I will say. I'm just Speaker 2 (36:41) really glad it's not like a much more overt, like, Speaker 1 (36:45) ton of Gotham lore dump here. I think, me too, I sort of like, Speaker 2 (36:46) I got anxious that it was Speaker 1 (36:48) leading to that possibility, which I don't think necessarily belongs here. I agree with you about the what it primes us for about thinking of Carrie as a parent, given how Carrie thinks about her parents. I think that was well done. I also liked something like in this very opening stretch here. you know, your father was a snitch, that makes you a snitch by association. Like, language like that is very purposeful and smart, right? By association, when we come out of this episode with the clarity, you know, we'll get to the scene between Carrie and Hal out in the street, right? Like, we see right here in the cafe sequence that Carrie is brought into Zoe's cult immediately. So Carrie knows everything, right? As we were on Carrie Watch. Speaker 1 (37:33) A lot of these characters died, like we've already talked about, right? Will Macon, gone. Zoe, gone. Carrie is in this interesting Speaker 2 (37:41) - Speaker 1 (37:41) Billy's still here. Billy's still here. Noah's still here. Carrie's in this interesting place in this episode where there's a connection to this thing, but also like- telling Hal more than she necessarily needed to tell Hal, helping John at the end, right? There's a tether to them still, certainly. And again, we have the glimpse of Carrie and John in the future from the first episode of the season. So then that by association language, it's like, well, wait, given everything that John and Hal learn in this episode and everything that happens in this episode, where does that leave them with Carrie? Like, one of the things we've talked about already that I was struck by was, like, the affection that seemed to be on display between Carrie and John in that conversation. Like, the tenderness. In Speaker 2 (38:18) 2026. Speaker 1 (38:19) Yeah, in 2026. Like, Speaker 2 (38:19) how's Noah? I think that's because she saved his life at the end of the day. Speaker 1 (38:23) Yeah, yeah. But then how do they balance that with, like... all of the reveals inside this episode. I'm so interested to see how that goes. Yeah, I'm Speaker 2 (38:31) curious, like, how much they're, like, have they had an ongoing relationship? Yeah. Because he says, how's Noah? That's something he could have said if he hadn't seen her in a decade. Yeah, like, you would maybe know the answer to Speaker 1 (38:40) that if Speaker 2 (38:40) you had been in Speaker 1 (38:40) touch. So I guess it actually implies, like we talked about before, that they're not in touch, but that they left on whenever they last engaged in a good enough place to, like, greet each other warmly. I'm curious about that. I think Speaker 2 (38:50) the by association and the it's in the genes has something to do with, like, because so much of this episode is about Speaker 2 (38:58) talking about Zoe's nature, what's in her nature. Like when she talks about killing Abin Sur. Yeah. And she's just sort of like, I believe, I think it's more interesting in our assessment of Zoe if she's not just blatantly manipulating everyone, that she kind of like feels the things that she feels and also like was grateful to Abin Sur for giving her another chance, but then also the primary programming is mine own survival over