'Lanterns' Episode 4 Deep Dive
House of R
Mal and Jo dive into Episode 4 of 'Lanterns,' titled 'The Weenie,' reflecting on the season's midpoint and unpacking key developments includ
Key takeaways
- The ticking clock countdown to 36 hours adds urgency, suggesting time travel or escalating stakes beyond 2016.
- Hal Jordan's behavior continues to deteriorate, raising questions about his role in the town's fate and whether he can redeem himself.
Main topics
- Hal Jordan's descent into recklessness
- John Stewart's emotional arc and relationships in Rushville
Notable quotes
"I haven't told the Guardians anything we've been doing because you asked me not to. Oh. Except that I'm old and tired."
Conclusion
As Season 1 reaches its halfway point, the stakes in Rushville continue to rise with
Transcript preview
Speaker 2 (0:05) Greetings, and welcome to House of R. Yeah. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today to remind me that I better start doodling Junior. Junior. Junior. It's Speaker 1 (0:22) Joanna Robinson. Speaker 1 (0:25) Which one of us is a squirrel inside of this Green Lantern Corps, do you think? I mean, you are the number one squirrel girl enthusiast that I know. So I did think of you right away. That's true. And I am fond of a nut. I like a nut too. Yeah. I like a nut too. Okay. What's your favorite kind of nut? Almond. I like an almond as well. Delicious. Raw. Unroasted. Unsalted. Give it to me raw. Unroasted. I was just going to say the same thing. Speaker 2 (0:53) We are here to dive deep into Lanterns, episode four, right after this. Okay, programming reminders. Hell yeah. Lanterns on Mondays. Correct. That's the hope. I have an upcoming vacation. We'll see if that impacts anything. But even then, I think we'll manage to do Mondays. We'll figure it out. Yeah. Buffy. Season five, part one at long last already up. Hell yeah. Season five, part two coming later this week. Imminent. On Speaker 1 (1:32) the Speaker 2 (1:32) horizon. Thrilling. That's one of the most anticipated Buffy pods yet. I mean, for the two of us. Hopefully for other people too. People seem Speaker 1 (1:37) really excited about part one. People seem to really love season five. So yeah, part two of season five is very important and we will talk about it. Can't wait. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? Oh my God. I'm so glad you asked Speaker 2 (1:47) me. Speaker 1 (1:47) Listen, what if they just subscribe to this podcast? What if that's something they Speaker 2 (1:51) did? Speaker 1 (1:51) It's a Speaker 2 (1:51) great idea. Speaker 1 (1:52) What if they followed us on social at House of Our Pod on Instagram? Mallory has told me that she might fang herself up. Yes. For an Instagram post later this week. I intended to Speaker 2 (2:05) do it last week and didn't mold the fangs. But once you do, we will have matching molded fangs. What part of your Speaker 1 (2:12) body will you let me bite for an Instagram photo? Literally any. Speaker 2 (2:17) And we haven't even gotten through the intro and they have their first Speaker 1 (2:21) quote card Speaker 2 (2:22) item. Great. At Speaker 1 (2:24) House of R pod on social to see where Mallory decides to bite me with her new fangs. Follow our journey. OppositeDragons.gmail.com. The inbox is always open. As we mentioned on the Buffy pod last week, we are pre-recording this. It's Labor Day weekend. So we are recording this in advance. So we will not have your. your reaction emails to episode four, though we will read them before we record episode five. So just in case you're like, hey, man, I had said something really brilliant about that. I bet you did, but I didn't get to read it. So I will look for it later. Thank you so much. But the inbox is always open for all your takes. Spoiler warning. Yeah. Hell yeah. Speaker 2 (3:02) Same as it's been for Lanterns, right? If it happened in this episode of television, the weenie. Episode four, The Weenie, then it'll come up today. We're going through the whole episode in chronological order. If it's happened to this point in the HBO Sunday night television program Lanterns, it might come up today. If it's happened in the comics, how are we approaching that, Joanna? Yeah, Speaker 1 (3:23) there's like a few sort of hot button issues that we're reserving for a spoiler section, I guess we're calling it like sort of. speculation, comics, lore section at the end. We don't have one today. Yeah. So don't worry about it. So this spoiler Speaker 2 (3:36) warning was not something we needed to share today. But keep it in mind for a week from now. Sometimes we do. Speaker 1 (3:41) So we'll Speaker 2 (3:42) let you know. Great stuff. Okay. I believe those are the programming reminders. Those are the spoiler warnings. Those are the follow along how to's. Yes. It's time for the opening snapshot. Speaker 2 (3:59) Episode four, The Weenie, 52 minutes, directed by Geeta Vasant Patel. Hot D. House of the Dragon Legend. Geeta. Exciting stuff. That was a thrill. Written by Brianna Gibson. Speaker 1 (4:10) Joanna, give me... Speaker 2 (4:11) Who worked on Penguin. That's right. A show we loved. And it's... Your Orange One! Speaker 1 (4:16) According to IMDb, though, IMDb is often unreliable about future stuff, but it's supposed to be working on The Chain, which is Damon Lindelof's next project. So if that's true, someone who was impressive enough in the lantern's room to sort of be brought over to Damon's next project. Speaker 2 (4:32) You love to hear it. You love to Speaker 1 (4:34) know it. Speaker 2 (4:34) On Speaker 1 (4:35) the Penguin front, Speaker 2 (4:35) and Speaker 1 (4:36) a couple listeners emailed us about this, did you see the Kelly MacDonald interview where she talked about how she was watching The Penguin to sort of prep? for her Gotham-centric character and that she based some of her accent on that, but then had to tone it down because she was doing it too much and had to calm it down. And I was like, is that what Speaker 2 (4:57) that is? She's trying Speaker 1 (5:00) to do Boyd. She's trying to do what Colin Farrell's doing in The Penguin, but flattened out with a couple years in Nebraska. I'm going to need a little bit of like a Speaker 2 (5:12) tail of the tape forensic analysis of that claim. Speaker 1 (5:14) There's this guy, one of my favorite creators, who's a, I don't know, linguist. I don't know exactly what his qualifications are, but he breaks down cinematic accents. I love it. I really need him to do a deep dive on what Kelly McDonnell's doing here in this show. But anyway, let's call it Gotham. Sure. With the edges sanded off by Nebraska. Speaker 2 (5:37) Okay, this was an interesting episode because this is a very Sheriff Carrie-centric episode where, again, some amazing stories, some amazing beats, the zingers with Carrie and Hal, wonderful, and then some real accent stumpers. Speaker 1 (5:53) But overall, Speaker 2 (5:55) aside from Accent Corner, Joanna, how did you feel about this episode of Television Episode 4? And because Episode 4 is... somehow already the midway mark of season one of Lanterns. How are you feeling about the season overall at the halfway point here? I Speaker 1 (6:08) can't believe we're through half of it. The fuck? Someday the passage of time will make sense to you, but it is not this day. It is not this day. I loved this episode. I thought this episode was amazing. I thought this was a fantastic episode. Speaker 1 (6:25) It's really interesting. You know, we get the re-mention of the ticking clock in this episode, right? 36 hours. So it's interesting to think about. And, you know, we're it's a day and we're through a night, right? So less than that on the ticking clock. So we have not had the advantage of seeing the next time on trailer. So we don't know what's coming next week. But if the clock runs out next in next week's episode. then what is the rest of the season? Is the rest of the season still in 2016? Are we going to get more of that flash? You know, like, are we going to be hopping around in time more? Like, Speaker 2 (7:00) how Speaker 1 (7:01) is it all going to sort of Speaker 2 (7:02) roll out? I'm not ready to say goodbye to Kyle Chandler, I'll tell you that much right now. No. Boy, was this a great Kyle Chandler episode and a wonderful Aaron Pierre episode. They're just so good together. The water tower recon scene. between Hal and John was just so delightful. Wedge watch was off the charts. Yes. Speaker 1 (7:20) Like, absolutely out of control in terms of, like, everyone trying to drive a wedge between these two guys, which means that we are rooting so hard for them to figure it out. Yes. And a pal of mine who's a listener was talking to me about last week's episode and the way in which Hal is dropped in at the end of the episode and how much he loved that idea of, like, Hal's sort of like, being a charming asshole is something that we've been, like, enjoying, whatever. But the way that he drops in at the end of episode three, and it's just, like, so much more rancid than it's ever felt before, which we noted, but just sort of, like, if it had been Hal throughout the episode, it would have felt different than just, like, dropping Hal in at the end and just that, like, Midwest Huxtable shit that he says and all this sort of stuff like that. But I'm, like, rooting for his better angel. to come through always, you know, and then he crashes a car that our guy John is in into, you know, a telephone pole and like without any regard as, you know, as we got in episode one without any regard to whether or not that would be a fatal crash. I mean, we know it's Speaker 2 (8:32) not. Speaker 1 (8:32) Sorry Speaker 2 (8:33) about the rental. We know it's Speaker 1 (8:35) not, but like that could have. Killed him? Oh, yeah. I saw Cod stealing. That's what happens in that movie. Damn spoiler. It's not. God. It's not the point of that movie at all. The point of that movie is baseball, right? Sure. There's a lot of carrying a bat in the trailer. There is. Speaker 1 (8:52) But yeah, I mean, that could be, and we know it's not because we've seen the flash forward, but like that could have easily been fatal. And so how do we feel about our guy Hal? Like, you know, possibly killing our guy John. Obviously terrible. We've gotten some Speaker 2 (9:05) key canon insights inside of this episode to why all of the rooms in the hospital are open. So maybe Hal is just like plenty of available. No, Hal's an asshole as he concedes. And as many people observe in this episode, I thought it was just. An incredibly propulsive and entertaining episode. It was a great one for the character dynamics. This was once again a very funny, kind of crisp episode in terms of the banter. And it was obviously a big episode for moving the story forward. On the lore front, in terms of what we learn, in terms of what characters share, kind of a lot of theory corner fodder. We get some big Speaker 1 (9:42) reveals, but still have questions. I'm really relieved that Zoe is seemingly, like, revealed as the Manhunter. That's what seems like the conclusion at Speaker 2 (9:51) the Speaker 1 (9:51) end of this episode. And, like... but the only Manhunter? Exactly. We don't know. The Manhunter or a Manhunter? Speaker 2 (9:57) A Speaker 1 (9:57) Manhunter. Great, great question. But I think that like... Just asking questions. Yeah, Speaker 2 (10:01) I Speaker 1 (10:01) love it. I love when you ask questions. Just asking questions. But I think that like that's a relief to me because it was feeling kind of obvious. Yeah. Especially like midway through this episode. I was like, if they don't reveal it at the end of this episode, it's going to be really annoying to sort of like be so far ahead of the show. And the show's like, don't worry. We're with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (10:22) Are there some mailbags that we should hit before we get into the deep dive? Really quickly. And then one long one. One listener wrote in to help you out. You did not have one of your classic, that's what I would say, to Kyle Chandler lines in last week's episode. So one of our listeners wrote in to help you. Towards the end of the episode, Hal asked Junior if he's coming. Interestingly enough, that's what I'd like Kyle Chandler to ask me. Strong same. Okay. I feel like the listeners are just like, horny on your bit. I feel just seen, known, and understood. Great. Our listener Nicole asked, quick question for non-comic reader, can women be lanterns? The main question I came away from episode three with was, why wasn't Bernadette a candidate? She seems better suited than John Sr. in many ways. So we've mentioned it before, but Jessica Cruz is in the comics, the first female human. Speaker 1 (11:17) 2014, Jeff Johns and Ethan Van Sciver created her. Jessica Cruz is a really interesting lantern. We've had a lot of people write in about her, but we did get a lot of emails from listeners being like. hey, Bernadette seemed like she would have been a really cool candidate for Lantern Hood. Or do we think actually the ring was trying to find her and she just happened to be like out of the room? Gotta go check on the Speaker 2 (11:40) kids. You know, Speaker 1 (11:40) how accurate is that ring in terms of like seeking out who it's looking for or whatever. But I thought that was interesting. But the answer to Nicole's question is there is at least one human Speaker 2 (11:50) female in the comics. Speaker 1 (11:54) Heather wrote in to say, as a budding bird nerd, Speaker 2 (11:57) Which is Speaker 1 (11:57) just a really fun thing to say. I had to look up the weird blue jay looking bird that was watching John intensely in episode three. It turns out that the bird used in the episode was a black-throated magpie jay, which is native to Mexico. It could just be an aesthetic or availability choice, but using that bird gives credence to the idea that the Guardians really did use birds to watch John. If the Stewart house was truly in the Midwest, there's no way a bird native to Mexico that doesn't migrate north would be showing up in their backyard. Where are you on bird watch? Speaker 2 (12:28) Open. I think the fact that they appear so many times does make it plausible that the Guardians are checking in. I think certainly it's more likely that the Guardians are keeping tabs on all of their candidates than... Speaker 2 (12:42) just abdicating any sort of level of awareness or scouting responsibility for decades on end, given the haste with which Liana was like, here's my opening. I'm ready to make a move, right? Eager. That said, the idea that we all navigate our lives with some level of confirmation bias and see what we want to see also feels very interesting and appealing, especially with this character set. And so I'm open. I love a bird. As you know, I've really I've just been really interested in hummingbirds recently. They're just absolutely fascinating and majestic. I get so delighted when I see one. Also, as you know, I once saw a pigeon with you on the streets of Chicago and pointed at it and said nature. So I'm I'm always thinking about birds as well. I liked when we got to see the sketches in John's room that there was like a little little little bird. He's still a little bird foot right there. He's still doing Speaker 1 (13:35) bird stuff and mommy Speaker 2 (13:37) issues stuff for sure. Speaker 1 (13:39) Our listener Pat wrote in to underline the idea of how early the Guardians had buyer's remorse on Hal. Like when they go to visit Bernadette, that's like just after the ring chose Hal. So it's not that the whole thing with Sinestro is what made them. that Hal was the Green Lantern. They were unhappy right away with Hal Jordan. So that's just something to think about. Speaker 2 (14:04) Yeah, I guess. I think that there are potentially Speaker 1 (14:07) other interpretations to that. That's certainly possible. Why do you think Liana would show up with a diamond and be like... Because she was on the, like... I mean, I think that the possibility Speaker 2 (14:17) of just a larger need to control what is happening on Earth, independent of any specific... Speaker 2 (14:26) flaw with Hal. Maybe there's enough early to clock. We're not going to be able to get this guy to do what we want. He's a little too much of a rogue. And so given the theory corner stuff, obviously, about what we've already heard from Anton in episode two with John and the way that John and Hal themselves start theorizing then about the crash and Abin Sur and the Manhunter, what level of involvement did the Guardians have in that and why? And these are not questions that we have answers to at this point. So what Exactly from the Guardians perspective is the risk of whatever has unfolded in Rushville. I mean, there's the just obvious Manhunter answer to that. Right. Manhunter who escaped is a risk to the Guardians. But should they need to say we have to spin this out and be prepared for whatever the future holds now, this backwater planet that we never intended to have a lantern at? all has a lantern, we better make sure that we control who that lantern is in the future. I think there's a version of it that's more just like Speaker 1 (15:22) future-proofing. Okay, so they're just sort of like, just having a human lantern at all makes us nervous is sort of your interpretation of that. Yeah, and like, let's get our Speaker 2 (15:29) arms around how that functions since it's Speaker 1 (15:31) a Speaker 2 (15:31) new thing and make sure, because control is so central to how they operate, that it's something that they can guide. But maybe just right away they're like, Al, this is not going to work for us. Okay. I don't know. Interesting. Speaker 1 (15:43) OK. And then we get a long email from our listener, Grant, that I am not going to read in full, but I am going to read a lot of it. And I will say Grant is a listener that I know very well from the Lost podcast days. So this is very much the reason I'm going to read this in full. It's so up our alley because it's about chosen ones across like sort of Lindelof properties and sort of. what the larger conceit is in terms of the story we're telling here. Right. So this is what Grant says. Whether or not they meant to, as Outcast wasn't written by Damon Lindelof, it gave off strong John Locke and Daniel Faraday vibes. Think back to the last episode, Cabin Fever, where we see that Richard Alpert is present at the birth of John Locke, then visits him as a boy, administering a test for whether or not he was worthy to be chosen. He was not. Alpert was only taking the word of a time-traveling John who seemed to have answers. Though John's whole life turned out to be a con by one of the island's godlike beings, the smoke thing. And also think of Daniel Faraday's mother, Eloise, who turned her son away from his interest in music to focus on studying physics, which doomed him to his destiny, something of which she was well aware. Similarly, John Stewart has been chosen for a destiny his mother visited by an ageless godlike being who checks in from time to time. Is it a con to force John? Into a destiny he doesn't want. I'm also thinking of The Leftovers where Kevin Garvey comes to believe that he has been chosen since he survived the trials of the Hotel Underworld and International Assassin. And then Grant goes on to talk about this idea of International Assassin as like this ultimate, one of the best episodes of television ever, Leftovers episode. But this ultimate idea of like this male power fantasy. And how like what is what is us being a superhero or if not a male power fantasy? And then he goes on to say even Kevin Garvey at the end rejects the chosen one narrative in favor of love. And he feared love because you have to be weak with another person. You have to be vulnerable. You have to become small rather than seeing yourself as an international assassin or the most powerful man in the world. John Locke sought love his whole life, and that need was why his father could con him and exploit him. Daniel Faraday felt a twisted kind of love from his mother who forced him onto a path he didn't particularly want that resulted in his death. It was interesting to me to hear both Carey's and Whelan's analysis of Hal Jordan in the pilot. Quote, he's not fearless, he's lonely, says Carrie. And quote, you want to die, Hal Jordan, says Waylon, the alien. Speaker 1 (18:16) Hal leads a loveless life. So has John. Love is interesting in the context of the Green Lantern mythos, as it's typically in the purview of the star sapphires. We haven't seen a Carol Ferris yet, Hal's constant love interest in the original star sapphire. We may or may not meet her, but seeing Hal's empty living quarters and the constant asshole-ish posturing, God, I love this character, it's easy to see that he keeps everyone at arm's length. I wonder if the rest of the season we'll see Hal and John become for each other what they couldn't find in anyone else, love, empathy, or if they'll simply spiral deeper into fear and loathing. Speaker 2 (18:52) I mean, we hear Hal talk about this directly multiple times in this episode. You know, we have the great tunneling underground into the Macon Ranch sequence where John and Hal both learn new things about each other. And we hear Hal engage with this idea, right, about no ties, right? It's easier and better to have no ties. And then in the... first of the car rides, just talking about loss and grief. And in a way, as we'll get to when we go through those scenes, I thought made it pretty clear that he was describing a very specific loss and not just the loss of the parents that he has obviously told us about, including inside of this episode, but perhaps the loss of a love. So, yeah, it feels like all of those. Speaker 2 (19:40) specific experiences with grief and distance in different forms are specifically fueling what Hal presents to John in this episode as I thought one of the more authentic bits of let me actually try to give you like impart some wisdom and mentor you actively with a real thing that I believe and have learned and so it was like so tragic that that was the thing that he shared born out of his experience was really really heart-wrenching okay great emails as always let's get to the episode four, Deep Dive. Hey, Deep Dive. We start this episode right where we ended episode two. We pick back up with Hal and Sinestro. Hal is visiting his former mentor in space prison, authorizing the visit with his voice, his... name, so surely tipping off the guardians to his presence there and presumably being aware that they would know that he was there, which is interesting to think about given what we hear in this episode from between Liana and John about the breaking of the oath by making the visit. Speaker 1 (20:53) But it's very weird that Liana's like, I just do not believe that they do not have surveillance on this cell. So do you feel like it was a test for John or just to see whether or not Hal... told him anything. There's no way. Yeah. Unless they're really bad at their job. That they don't have. That they don't have cameras and an audio recording. I mean, I think especially Speaker 2 (21:13) in this episode where we are prompted to think about the fact that our characters are probably being recorded everywhere they are because the Hector, not Hammond, but Gutierrez character is like, I've been recording everything that you guys have been doing in this motel. Let me play what John said about you, Hal. Awkward. you know, that's there because of the effect it has on the characters in that scene and subsequently, but it's also there to make us think who's listening to them anywhere they are. The fact that this is a, like, guardian facility makes it, I think, impossible that they're not recording him. So, yeah, I processed it similarly to the, I mean, who knows, but I think it's more likely that it's akin to the gray wolf test during the interview where, like, our deduction was... that they know about Al Jordan's involvement in all of that and have all the particulars and that Liana was just seeing what John would reveal to her. And this feels maybe of a piece. That said, she did seem nervous. So the idea that like there's something that she does not have access to is possible, but also certainly just that the whole like rekindling of that bond, which. Speaker 1 (22:17) Because we also have questions about how Sinestro knows what he knows. Yes. You know, like, how does he know about Jon Stewart, et cetera? And so, like, is it possible that they don't have surveillance on him? That would be insane to me. That would be crazy. That would be very bad presenting. Do you have any theories for how the news Speaker 2 (22:37) that... pal has a trainee, my trainee has a trainee, actually reached Sinestro? Like, is somebody feeding him information? Does he have an ability to access intel somehow from afar? Is it an active delivery or retrieval? Or is there some vulnerability somewhere that, like, allows him to just know Speaker 1 (22:57) this thing? I don't Speaker 2 (22:57) know. Speaker 1 (22:58) And then, like, on the sort of Ben Linus from Lost Comp that we made before, it's just sort of like, he seems... You know, if we're using that comp that this is a character and we see him play how like a fiddle inside of this exchange. So like he seems like someone who could at any moment get a guard. I don't know what the guard system is like there. But like if it's not just digital robot guards, but actual like creatures, could he have convinced, you know, seduced mentally, emotionally a guard there? to give him information or this, that, or the other thing. I don't know. But I feel like the possibilities are wide open with someone like Sinestro. Speaker 2 (23:38) Yeah, and how much is his... Because so much of this episode and this season so far is about the power of manipulation. That comes into active play in the discussion at the end of the episode about what the Manhunter does and how people prey upon... Tough look for my guy, Jon. Weakness. But what was interesting about it is then you can apply. There were so many moments in this episode that were about a person, but you could apply to the entire character set as you think about, like, well, who else might that, who else might we be able to, like, put that on? On the Wedge Watch front, you know, this is interesting, too. It's like, is somebody else who is seeking to put a wedge between Hal and Jon feeding this information to Sinestro, anticipating that Hal will seek him out? Like, the Guardians. Ooh. So you feel like the Guardians Speaker 1 (24:21) could be using Sinestro to, like, whisper into Hal's ear to further the divide between... They Speaker 2 (24:29) obviously Speaker 1 (24:29) are, Speaker 2 (24:30) like, afraid of Hal because of Sinestro, who killed one of them. So the idea of them being in any way in cahoots is nuts. However, Guardian hubris of saying, like, my enemy can be my pawn, at least intriguing to me, I think, as a possibility. Who the fuck knows? Speaker 2 (24:46) Sinestro asks where the Guardians found John. And throughout the early parts of this exchange, there's a lot of like, who cares who gives a fuck stuff from Hal. I thought that, I mean, the entire Sinestro performance was, I thought, riveting, just incredible. The, I care, Hal. I, I care. There was something that was so... Speaker 2 (25:07) just like mesmerizing and gripping in the delivery. And as we think about the history, which we've heard multiple characters describe, Carrie to Hal in the hospital, John recounting what he knows when Liana asked him in the interview, et cetera. We've not Speaker 1 (25:22) glimpsed any of this directly, right? The master-apprentice relationship between Sinestro and Hal. And what happened with Speaker 2 (25:29) Sinestro and the Guardians. Exactly. Like, we have the, you know, this conversation, the incredible, like, is that how you fooled me? Hal himself is still trying to understand what happened, right? And so the moments of actually getting to hear Sinestro say, I care. And, like, we know that he has... staged a coup against the Guardians and killed one of them. We're just now getting to access directly from his perspective for the first time that venom, really potent and exciting. I just love the way he said it. Speaker 1 (26:00) Because Hal hopped to when he said that, when he said, I care. He's saying, you know what the priority in this conversation is? My needs, my priorities. I care. So you answer. And then Hal answered him, which is just sort of like so revealing, obviously, about their dynamic and about the way in which Sinestro has trained him. Speaker 2 (26:19) Yeah. Both Speaker 1 (26:20) like in his power set, but also just sort of like to heal, you know? And so and when we think about Hal is this like. Wounded guy who lost his dad. We talked about this before and Sinestro stepping in and taking advantage of that vulnerability and that wound to, you know, have this warped dynamic with Hal. And at the same time. I'm still holding on to my Sinestro was right mug until further information is revealed. Of Speaker 2 (26:47) course. Because I'm so anti Speaker 1 (26:49) the Speaker 2 (26:49) Guardians. Speaker 1 (26:50) Yes, for sure. Maybe they're all Speaker 2 (26:51) wrong. But yes, it's hard to in any way empathize with the Guardians, certainly. And I think like, especially because of, you know, Hal is pushing and challenging. But we have heard so often him talk about how, including in this conversation, John is just obsessed with. following commands, the chain of command, following orders. So the fact that we see that kind of like almost on instinct response from Hal, even though he is challenging, but kind of then still does it. They found him in the Marines. Yeah. Fascinating to watch. Two things on that moment. One, of course, they did not find him in the Marines. We know that. But to just be confronted overtly with the limit of Hal's awareness about the history between John and the Guardians, very painful to confront. Right. I also just loved that this was when Sinestro got up and walked toward Hal and they're looking at each other through the... You know, the kind of like portal like there's a like a quality, some sort of magical barrier there, but they can see each Speaker 1 (27:49) other. It's very like, oh, we want Duel of the Fates, like waiting to get to Qui-Gon Amal sort of thing. But it also Speaker 2 (27:56) looked like there was a kind of mirror like quality because it's it's. translucent, right? Not so different, you and I. Yeah, to have that, especially because the show has gone out of its way to give us framings like that with the interrogation scene and things like that. They're standing just across from each other and it's like, are you looking at a version of yourself? The way that Speaker 1 (28:15) in Silence of the Lambs, Hannah Speaker 2 (28:19) Lecter and Speaker 1 (28:19) Clarice are shot with that plexi between them, that happens a lot where you see a reflection of one in the shot of the other. Yes. And I ask Speaker 2 (28:27) once again, where is Migs? Speaker 1 (28:28) You Speaker 2 (28:29) know, who is the Migs of this space prison? It is something to think about. We get the great line that we had seen in all of the trailers, you know, because Hal is clapping back, but then Sinestro moves him with a real quickness into that. Then Say What He Actually Is, my replacement. We cut to Jon. We'll talk about Jon when we get to the Jon scenes. We're going to stick with this Sinestro scene, so we come back to it. And Hal is like, Sinestro's just like, you're going to have to kill him. Just outright says, there's no subtlety here. There's no incepting in this. moment. It's just, you're gonna have to kill this guy. And Hal points out, hey, I'm not evil. The murder stuff, that's your department, right? And Sinestra says, no, you're not evil. You're just, what's that word you're searching for? Old. What's that word you're fighting? Fighting. Old, which I just think is, Speaker 1 (29:17) like, I mean, it's hilariously harsh burn. Experienced, right? He says, like, different. Speaker 1 (29:25) But the idea that Sinestro, it reminds me actually of, you know, we just covered Buffy season five, part one. When Drusilla is able to pluck the word effulgent out of Spike's head. Like, what are Sinestro's abilities to sort of see inside of Hal's head and just. pluck out the specific vulnerability and Speaker 2 (29:46) just Speaker 1 (29:46) say, what's that word you're fighting, right? You're trying to hide a word in your head from yourself, from every, like your biggest shame, your biggest fear is that you're washed and you're old and you can't do this anymore. But I can ferret it out and pull it to the fore. And Speaker 2 (30:01) like how much of that is about Hal and how Sinestro knows him and knows how to push his buttons because of their history together and how much of it is just like, this is. being human. You know, that you get old and you have to confront your mortality and you have to confront that the world is passing you by and you have to confront that somebody has put your replacement right there in front of you. So when Hal says here, like, Johnny Tryhard, he's too perfect. He's boring, right? Replace me fine. It's like the bravado. And then we watch at the bookends of this episode are Hal is old scenes, right? There's this conversation here. And then there is Hal having to stand there as. Hector Gutierrez plays the recording of John telling Liana, this guy's fucking old and washed. Without Speaker 1 (30:45) the provocation that got him there in the first place to say it. It's interesting to go back to that conversation that Bernadette was having with Liana, where Liana says, quote, humans have relatively short lifespans. Like, to your point, it's, we say this a lot when we talk about, um, characters that we're studying. This is so human. It's human quality. But like inside of this world where there are just so many non-humans, like the fact that Hal is old versus Sinestro's lifespan versus all these other creatures in their lifespans, the Guardians, et cetera, it's Speaker 2 (31:16) a Speaker 1 (31:16) very... fragile human. Yes. Specifically human, short lifespan sort of aspect. Speaker 2 (31:23) Yeah. And then you think about Hal and losing his father so young and the way that he talks about him in this episode and he was a hero, right? And test pilot and so much of Hal's like... edge right and cool stems from I'm a fighter pilot too and so you do these things that simultaneously always push up against mortality like definitionally and Hal has the most concrete proof of how true that can be but then also the ring chooses you and you know as we've tracked across the episodes these moments where it's like well what is the what is the, there's the, I'm famous, I'm in the limelight, everybody looks up to me, I'm a superhero, some great, like, well, superheroes don't really lock their doors, like, moments in this episode, too, but, you know, the side of that of, like, resenting the visibility and the pressure everybody puts on you to solve things all the time is something we've talked about a lot. There's also this part of it of, like, everybody watching you grow old, right? The days where you, like, your back hurts or your hip hurts. And B.O.S. filming our podcast on camera suddenly. It's like, right. But think about that from how everybody is aware. There's the salt in his hair all of a sudden. Right. And so the moments to you that feel like part of your decline are there for everyone to see. And then Johnny Tryhard comes in and he's fucking perfect. The line at the end in the in the slaughterhouse scene with Hector at the end of like obsolete. Speaker 2 (32:48) Obsolete. And especially because we've gotten these great moments across the season, like we had the line in episode three, the John Liana conversation about like humans aren't programmed, they're raised. And we keep getting these moments where like tech language is used, right? But you're a person. And so if somebody is saying you're obsolete because here's the shiny new model, I'm like, it took me into like an Ishiguro, like Clara and the Sun headspace, right? It's like, these are people. So it's just a very painful. I think this episode has done or like did a really good job of just giving us moments that open these big, almost existential questions while also advancing the plot. But so Speaker 1 (33:25) interesting to think about that idea of like humans and mortality and fragility inside of an episode where we have, you know, Macon Senior and all of his resplendent naked glory talking about. Which elephant? What their town has become. Right. And what it has become is a place where humanity doesn't concern them as much anymore. Nobody gets sick. So Speaker 2 (33:49) thinking Speaker 1 (33:49) about, you know, like, how long do they live longer than humans usually do? We don't know that information yet. But, like, they're not getting sick. You know, there's bounty aplenty. Right. We are living a... Speaker 1 (34:05) a superior existence because of this godlike benefactor who has come to us. And so to think about... Especially when the Manhunter is a constructed property, this idea of these tech terms is sort of like how has the entire town of Rushville like had their brains rewired. Absolutely. By the thinking and the language and the influence of this person inside of their community. It's Speaker 2 (34:36) so fascinating that. Macon in particular, but the buy-in from the militia and the collective of like the, you know, what we talked about a lot in episodes one and two, the fear mongering, the kind of jingoistic isolationist language of let's keep everybody else out who is a threat that the embrace of the Manhunter who has fueled their. Speaker 2 (34:59) superiority and infallibility to these threats, that is like the idea that the other humans then who would come in