‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 5 Rewatch (Part 1)

House of R

Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin return to Sunnydale for a deep dive into the first half of Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 5, covering epi

Key takeaways

• Riley Finn's slow-burn exit is a pivotal moment that reshapes the season's dynamics, with both hosts expressing relief at his departure despite acknowledging some nuanced storytelling in his arc.

Main topics

• Riley Finn's departure and its narrative implications
• Introduction of Dawn Summers and her impact on the group dynamics

Notable quotes

"You're beneath me." – Buffy to Spike in 'Fool for Love', marking a turning point in their relationship.

Conclusion

While Season 5's first half is uneven and emotionally heavy due to Riley's departure and

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Hello and welcome back to House of R. I'm Joyner Robinson. Joining me today, it is the slayer of my heart, Mallory Rubin. Oh, forgive me, shiny special one. I beg of Speaker 3 (0:14) you to rip out my inadequate tongue. You're my glory. I am Speaker 2 (0:19) your glory. You're my Speaker 3 (0:20) glorificus. And I'm your dreg. Speaker 2 (0:22) Dreg's actually pretty cool. I love a minion. It's Buffy season five. Right after this. Speaker 2 (0:43) Okay, quick programming reminders. Buffy Season 5 Part 1 is today. Yes. Buffy Season 5 Part 2 is next week. Oh, my Speaker 3 (0:53) God. Speaker 2 (0:53) In between, another episode of Lanterns, which are dropping on Mondays. A new episode of Ringer Quest is up on the Ringerverse feed. Another one coming next week. Wow. Cranking. All this content. Jeezy crazy. Subscribe to the pod. Follow us on socials. Do it. At House of R Pod on Instagram and TikTok, et cetera, et cetera. Email us, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Send us your Buffy season five thoughts. We've already gotten some Buffy season five emails. I'd like to see even more based on how many comments we got saying, where's Buffy season five? Here it is. Now participate. Speaker 2 (1:33) Today's episode is Buffy season five, episode one, Buffy versus Dracula through episode 10, Into the Woods. Will there be slight smears of spoilers in the back half of Speaker 3 (1:44) the Speaker 2 (1:44) season? Perhaps a little bit. Yeah, what's our, what's our, every time we reset on this, what's our process? I think there are some like, I would say two massive major events that happen in the back half that maybe we just don't need to talk about. But I don't know. Glory is a god. I just feel like I kind of want to say that. Even though that's not something you find out until the back half of the season. I support you. Before we get into like our opening snapshot and everything, I have a special Buffy season five clip for you, Molly Rubin. This is exciting. This is just like a from the deepest core of my heart. Buffy season five message to you. Are you ready? Speaker 3 (2:17) I'm Speaker 2 (2:18) so excited to find out what this is. I hope it's Speaker 3 (2:19) Riley flying away at long last. Close. Speaker 1 (2:22) Here we go. And I'm still going to make you go to that doctor. Speaker 2 (2:30) That's me to you. Speaker 3 (2:31) Great stuff. Someday you'll go to the doctor Speaker 2 (2:34) and it will be because if I had Slayer's Strength, I'd make you go, but I can't. Listen, Speaker 3 (2:40) it's an interesting season to watch while thinking of how badly I need to seek medical attention. Speaker 2 (2:46) I'll Speaker 3 (2:46) say that. It's been impactful. Speaker 2 (2:48) You're beautiful. You're luminous. Speaker 3 (2:50) We want you to be well. All Speaker 2 (2:51) right. Anything else we need to mention before we get to the opening snapshot? Let's snap. Let's do it. Speaker 2 (3:08) Delightful sound effects from Carlos. Shout out Carlos Chiriboga for giving us Buffy-centric. The Howl of the Wolf. Makes us think of Oz. Oh, yeah. Makes us think of Seth Green. Makes us think of the Midnight Boys. Makes us think of the Midnight Boys. All right. Buffy season five, which aired September 26, 2000 to May 22, 2001. Here are the episodes we will be talking about in brief and then one of them in depth. The most important one. Maybe the most important episode of television ever. Let's talk about it. And Speaker 3 (3:40) probably Speaker 2 (3:40) returning to it 20 times in the superlatives. It's Buffy versus Dracula. A very odd season premiere. Speaker 3 (3:47) I kind of liked it. Speaker 2 (3:49) Real me. The replacement. Out of my mind. No place like home. Family. Fool for love. Very important. Speaker 3 (3:57) Iconic. Speaker 2 (3:58) Shadow, Listening to Fear, two creature feature episodes back to back. A lot of special effects questions, comments, or concerns on those. And then, at long last, it's Riley's departure via helicopter into the woods. Ten episodes, you had to wait. How did your heart feel as that helicopter lifted off? And Buffy, what a shame, was just too late to stop him. Tragic. Speaker 3 (4:24) After that incredibly Easy to understand pitch from Xander to go chase your one true love. I almost punched a wall. Very odd. Fuck off, Xander. So you and Carlos had told me, because I had insisted that you tell me. Yes, when? How long will Riley Finn be in my life? So I remember, you know, you have these memories in your life, these core moments where you can almost see yourself outside of your body. You know, you're floating. I can like, whether this is a real memory or not, I don't know. Probably not. But I see myself like when my dad was like, bye, parents are getting divorced. I remember when I was wearing these memories. Oh, when you guys said to me, 10 more episodes of Riley. And I said, 10 more episodes. Riley, I can see all of us looking at each other and I knew. You were so upset. Listen, I was glad to see him go and I don't mind saying it. I am happy that he's gone. There were some interesting Riley moments in the story. I thought that Riley, we're in full spoiler territory now here for these 10 episodes. Speaker 2 (5:24) I Speaker 3 (5:24) thought that Riley in the vamp den was pretty interesting. Provocative. Yeah, pretty interesting. Actually, I didn't mind that. Thrilled he's gone. And excited to celebrate him slash kick him in the nuts one more time on the way out the door. I feel so mixed about Speaker 2 (5:39) it. I mean, I'm very happy he's gone. That's uncomplicated. But I think it's interesting in thinking about like them writing him off. I was trying to dig into sort of like what was at the other than clearly him not working as a love interest for Buffy and clearly him being like a very boring character. So Speaker 3 (5:54) dull. Speaker 2 (5:55) Were there any other reasons or at least reasons they gave? And Mark Lucas said in an interview that he did sign on for four seasons. So imagine that horror. I would Speaker 3 (6:05) simply rather not. Speaker 2 (6:09) They didn't even get four more seasons, actually, after he started. And then also, he kind of has claimed in certain interviews that it was like his idea, that he's like, Riley's not really doing anything. Speaker 3 (6:20) What do you say we Speaker 2 (6:21) write him off? And I'm like, okay, Mark, if you need. Mark Lucas seems absolutely lovely. Delightful. Wonderful person. The fact that they wrote off Riley without killing him is something I always applaud. Like, let's get a little bit more inventive than just like killing him off. And they knew when they started the season that that's what they were doing, so they sort of really slow rolled it. But I think as a result, what that means is that a lot of the Riley stuff kind of dominates the first half of the season in a very unfortunate way. When I was watching the first 10 episodes, I was like, do I really like season five? Speaker 3 (6:56) Yeah. Speaker 2 (6:56) You know? And then I think there's enough good stuff in the first half. And then the back half is like once he's gone to huge sigh of relief, everything is. Yes. Spike just kind of slides into, you know, this role. And it's exactly what I want it to be. Speaker 3 (7:14) I Riley is not the only reason for this, but I will say overall, without spoiling the particulars of the back half, we're going to talk about those those 12 episodes, those 12 episodes in just mere days. I. Like season five overall, I'd put it third probably on my power ranking, which is a living document until the end of the run. I think right now I'm three, two, five, four, Speaker 2 (7:38) one. Speaker 3 (7:39) Okay. Probably. I'm not. Flip one and four? Yeah. Yeah. The first half of this season. is not my favorite chunk of episodes that we'll ever be discussing. Some highs, as you noted. But a lot of things that I loved about the show kind of changed in this stretch of episodes. And I... don't mind spoiling that the back half is one of my favorite stretches, even though there are some episodes in there that are not, you know, all-time bangers because there are a few episodes and just creative choices that are, I have a deeper understanding of the way that this show has impacted not only people I love like you, but storytelling because of some of the things that happened in the back half of this season. My favorite episode of the show to date is in the back half of this season and I think two of the, certainly two of the 10 best episodes that I have seen so far are in the back half of the season. So I'm very excited for next week's pod. I don't know what your second one is. That's exciting. Speaker 2 (8:43) We'll find out. We will. We will. Speaker 3 (8:45) And that could change because I have to rewatch them all still. But I mean, there's one that's just undeniable, obviously. Fucking undeniable. Speaker 2 (8:50) To your point, yeah, the way in which... You know, we've had this category sort of throughout this idea of like school is hell as a category. And I just took it out of the dock this time because they just kind of there are a couple scenes of where they kind of pretend that Buffy is still going to college. But like and like Tara and Willow live in. the most ridiculous looking dorm rooms you've ever seen, but they're still in school. But like, other than that, Speaker 1 (9:16) the Speaker 2 (9:16) idea that this is a show centered around young people going to school, I mean, Dawn's going to junior high, I guess, but like, is not really a thing anymore. And that's sad because it takes out, and we talked about this in the move from high school to college, Speaker 3 (9:31) but Speaker 2 (9:31) even more so here, it takes out this unifying principle of like, we all do something together. And so they kind of try to replace it with like, Giles buys the magic box and everyone like Anya officially works there, which is great. Everything with like Anya and Giles own the magic box, I think is 10 out of 10 no notes. And then like Xander and Willow and Tara are often just like they're kind of also working there sometimes, you know, and which is like a little a little clunky, but like that's their replacement for we all go to school together. And then something something I really struggled with these first 10 episodes. And again. One of my favorite episodes of all time is in this trunk. Speaker 3 (10:10) An amazing one. I Speaker 2 (10:12) cannot be mad about it. But I was like really missing the Willow and Buffy stuff. And I was like. This is Speaker 3 (10:19) my single biggest note. There's barely Speaker 2 (10:21) any one-on-one Willow and Buffy conversations. Like they talk about Dawn a little bit. They talk about Joyce a little bit. But like in this first half, it's like. Willow is Tara's girlfriend and learning some magic stuff but not really a character. And I looked it up because I was like, what's going on? And I believe Allison Hannigan was filming American Pie 2 while she was making this season. So I think she was like a bit preoccupied. She's kind of like, you know, lead of that movie. And so I think, I think. Speaker 3 (10:56) I Speaker 2 (10:56) think that ate up some of her time and they accommodated that schedule. But, like, I couldn't really understand why Willow was so absent from the first half of the season. Speaker 3 (11:06) Yeah, it's—I feel very similarly. So the volume of Riley stuff, obviously, just for me, never going to be my favorite stretch of episodes. Okay. The college thing that you just noted is a huge, huge bummer to me. Like, I love, love, love that part of school. Now, both the presence of school and the school setting in their lives and the friendship aspects in which member of the Scoobies and which, like, you know, duo or trio inside of a larger friend group spends the most time with each other. It's a little bit of a piece in the sense that there's a part of me that's like, okay. Things change in people's lives. And I actually like that, right? But I think that in the we can carry multiple truths in our mind at once version of assessing this, it's sort of undeniable that it doesn't quite feel the same when. And we talked about this, obviously, in the season four pods. Like, I love high school stories and coming-of-age stories. I love college stories as well. And so college was a really interesting, like, as you are continuing to learn about yourself and new people and things and ideas and interests are coming into your life. Like, I missed that setting. I think the need for Buffy to be focused on family was a kind of bold, creative, okay, sometimes terrible things happen in people's lives or there are changes. And I think that that... is actually really interesting as a creative decision. I found myself so badly missing Willow and Buffy and Willow Xander and Buffy specifically. And just in general, Speaker 2 (12:37) that college setting of like, you're running into some guy you fucked the night before at the dining hall and he's Speaker 3 (12:42) a Speaker 2 (12:42) dick Speaker 3 (12:42) now. Like that stuff feels so central to kind of where we have found these characters so far. And so it almost felt to me a little bit like, again, I'm putting these things separate. Something terrible has happened. Your mother is sick. You're trying to be present for your kid sister who's actually the MacGuffin that is the key. That's in a different bucket. But like... It almost felt, I think in part because everybody is also in very serious relationships. Like we fast forwarded multiple years in everybody's life. You know what I mean? Everyone Speaker 2 (13:12) feels so old, especially when they're like looking after, like when Tara and Willow are looking after Dawn or Xander and Anya are looking after Dawn, they feel like they're like. late 20s. Yeah. They're supposed to be 20. Speaker 3 (13:25) Yeah. And Speaker 2 (13:25) maybe in some cases 19. You know what I mean? And they're behaving like they're in their late 20s all of a sudden. Yeah. Especially Speaker 3 (13:31) I think we have the fun apartment hunt with Xander. And I did think that the Xander episode was wonderful. I Speaker 2 (13:38) really Speaker 3 (13:38) liked that episode. Delightful. Yeah. But I was almost like, wait, it feels like everyone's ready to put down a mortgage, not just like sign a lease. Yeah. All that said. Speaker 3 (13:49) Joyce, because one of the things I lamented about season four was like, where's Joyce? So Joyce and Buffy, that relationship for deeply tragic reasons being so centered was something that I found very impactful. I think Glory is incredibly fun from the word go. Yeah. And the Spike stuff in this season is... iconic and god tier and like unbelievably powerful. So there's a lot of great stuff in the season two. Again, I think the second half is better. I was going to save this for the Giles categories, but I will just note at the top as we talk about kind of big picture thoughts, I have some bones to pick about what I will now be calling the de-daddying of Giles. The fuck is this about? What is this? Now Giles going through his... Am I useful? Like the ongoing journey of assessing what role he plays in their lives. I found that very touching. And the magic box. That's fun. We need a new location. Okay. New HQ for the Scoobies. Our guy Giles, Jenny, Band Candy, Olivia, the gigs, singing and strumming. This guy who is walking, oozing sex, bought a place called Magic Box and like very few sexy things happened with Giles inside of this season. I consider it a crime and a scandal. Speaker 2 (15:10) Just the season premiere, I guess, so far. Let's talk about that. Okay, so Dracula is the first season premiere not written by Joss. I Speaker 3 (15:17) liked Dracula. No, I... It's fun. I Speaker 2 (15:22) medium like it. I mean, it's not an all-timer, but Speaker 3 (15:25) it was entertaining. I'll Speaker 2 (15:26) reserve the main reason I don't like it, actually, for one of the categories. Okay, exciting. First season premiere not written by Joss, Marty Noxon gets the honors, and Marty will take over the show in season six a bit, like, while Joss is... busy doing Firefly and other things. Speaker 3 (15:41) So Speaker 2 (15:42) she's like really the heir apparent. No two-parters, which really stuck out to me when I was sort of like doing these notes on top of the season four notes. And like, there's so many two-parters in the season four and in the first three seasons, of course. And the fact that that idea is kind of gone here in season five is interesting. But more direct crossovers with Angel. Fool for Love, most of all, which is, like, really hard for me to, like, not try to make you watch Darla, which is the Angel episode that came out. They were so heavily advertised together. The same flashbacks are in both episodes, except from different points of view. Okay. And so, for example, when Angel is being such a little, like, being so pissy at Spike about killing the Slayer during the Boxer Rebellion, it's not just that he's like, jealous and mad that Spike killed a Slayer. He's actually re-insulted at that point. You just like don't know it when you're watching Buffy and then you watch that scene from his point of view and Angel and he's like pretending to still be a vampire but he's like let's get out of here and not kill any more people. You know what I mean? Interesting. Speaker 3 (16:51) So Speaker 2 (16:51) I Speaker 3 (16:52) considered watching it. Yeah. Because I thought that Full for Love was one of the most important installments in the history of television. Speaker 2 (17:01) Correct. You're right about it. You're right about that. You should say so. Could not have been better. It was wonderful. Speaker 3 (17:07) Yeah. And so I thought, okay, the fact that there's another, like a connected hour. Yeah. That could give me more of this. How could I deprive myself of it? I remain steadfast though, that I will not watch Angel out of order. I just don't want to do it. It feels contrary Speaker 2 (17:22) to how I like to consume things. It's just very, it's very plotty. But then again. mild spoiler for the back half of season five. Drusilla shows up and kind of spoils some stuff that's happening in Angel when she shows up in the back half of season five of this show. And so like, I was like, maybe she could have watched that episode, Darla. Anyway, something to think about. But this is the last time that Angel and Buffy will be on the same network because after this season, Buffy moves to the UPN. Speaker 3 (17:50) Right. The Speaker 2 (17:51) UPN. To UPN. and Angel's still on the WB, and so they can't really do these kinds of direct crossovers anymore once that happens. Speaker 3 (18:00) So Speaker 2 (18:00) this is sort of the last time they'll be that interconnected. Speaker 1 (18:03) We Speaker 2 (18:04) will still see some cross-pollination, but it'll be like a special dispensation in order to do it. Got it. I Speaker 3 (18:09) did like seeing Darla again. Yeah. It was fun. Great. Got a kick out of her. Drusilla Speaker 2 (18:13) being here, fun. Always Speaker 3 (18:15) great. Speaker 2 (18:15) Only three episodes this season were written and directed by Joss Whedon, and I think it shows. And in this first half, it's just the episode Family, Speaker 3 (18:22) which Speaker 2 (18:22) I actually really like that episode as well. Me Speaker 3 (18:26) too. Speaker 2 (18:26) A very thinly veiled metaphor, but, you know, hey, Amy Adams is here, and that's always fun. Speaker 3 (18:33) Fucking Beth. Yeah. Cousin Beth. Yeah, I like that episode as well. Speaker 2 (18:37) Looking through who are central to these first 10 episodes, it's like Buffy, a Buffy episode, a Dawn episode, a Xander episode. I really like that Xander episode. Me Speaker 3 (18:45) too. Delightful. Speaker 2 (18:46) Riley, Joyce-ish, Glory, kind of Tara, Spike, Joyce, Riley. And it's like, again, where's Willow? Also, you said Riley more than once. Disqualify. Speaker 2 (18:58) But this season is this is the season with the highest number of cast members with eight members of the principal cast from the episode Real Me to Into the Woods, which is wild. And we haven't even talked about Dawn yet. Dawn. Tell me everything. Well, no, I want to I want to hear from you. Like. I know you knew she was coming. I did. Yes. But I would like you to imagine. Okay. Let me set the stage for you. Please. Yeah. As I mentioned when we did season four, I skipped season four because I was like in the dorms, especially in New York College. We didn't have, we didn't watch TV that way. And I just like didn't watch it. And I didn't even catch up over the summer because like, I don't know. I just didn't have that. I don't know. Speaker 3 (19:36) Yeah. I Speaker 2 (19:37) maybe saw an episode or two there, but I didn't, I didn't watch it. And then a friend of mine who turned out to be a very bad friend, but she was my Buffy friend for a little while and she was into Buffy. Yeah. And so beginning of sophomore year, she's like, come over and we'll watch the season five premiere. Yeah. And so we watched Buffy together a bit that year. But I go over to her house. We're watching season five, episode one. And I was like, Dracula's here? What? Yeah. And then I was like, what's going on with the show? And then. Speaker 2 (20:06) Dawn's here? And like no clue that was coming, you know? So like the shock of Dawn's appearance, not to mention some of the other surprises that wait at the end of the season is just like. Speaker 3 (20:17) Yeah. Speaker 2 (20:19) Everyone was like, what the hell is going on here? Yeah. And then the next episode, you know, sort of. But even when you rewatch Buffy versus Dracula, at the beginning of the episode when Joyce is like, I'm going to have to get used to the house being so empty without you. You know what I mean? So it's like, okay, even as soon as several scenes ago, Dawn did not exist. So what was your reaction to her arrival? How did you feel she was used in this first half here? Speaker 3 (20:48) So, this is one of the things about coming to a show with distance, right? I think I definitely told you this. I can't remember if I said it on the pod or not, but, you know, you boot the show up, you boot up Buffy on Hulu. Oh, yeah. And the picture, the main art for the series is Dawn and Buffy. So, I was like... Speaker 3 (21:12) This is Dawn. This is Dawn who I've like heard. I knew that Dawn was in the show, but I didn't really know like any particulars that she was the key. The key, I think I did not know that she was Buffy's sister. And I think I would not have understood how that could be possible, obviously. Right. But what I did know is that Dawn was going to become a major character. So that was kind of in my mind in a way that as soon as she appeared in the fifth season. Speaker 1 (21:39) It's crazy to say Speaker 3 (21:39) fifth season. I know. On the one hand, I'm like, I can't believe that we have... Only two more to go? Yeah, that's God. We're near the end. It's sad. I kind of liked the Dawn stuff. Yeah. I think that the... For a couple reasons. Though I have a question for you. One of the things that I didn't like as much... I'm really trying hard not to spoil back half of the season stuff as I say this. I'll keep it in check. Speaker 3 (22:08) And we have a Dawn-specific category, so I'll hit more of the particulars when we get there that maybe kind of flesh some of this out. Just broadly. Yeah. I did want to ask you how much of this, if there's a sense of what was determined versus discovered in real time. Because it is a little bit. There's more, and especially re-watching these first 10 episodes, because I watched the whole season, then I'm re-watching these episodes for the part one pod. Like, are they trying to fake? How was it like we knew where this was going, but we're trying to just fake people out and put them on their heels that Dawn might know who she is, know why she's there, have malicious intent because there are more moments like that. Oh, Speaker 2 (22:43) yeah. No, they knew it Speaker 3 (22:45) was a fake. Yeah. OK. Speaker 2 (22:46) So when she's like, you know. she has no idea who I am or whatever. And like the kind of very Speaker 3 (22:52) malicious, like, I'm going to make Joyce tea. I kind of Speaker 2 (22:56) like that though. Like we find out when Buffy finds Speaker 3 (22:58) out Speaker 2 (22:58) that like what Speaker 3 (22:59) Dawn is. I didn't mind it at all. I was more curious, like, were they actually open to a couple of different paths potentially? Or was it always assured? And then, so, okay. I, despite missing. We're in the dorms. We're at college. We are in this very particular and specific college is college and there's kind of nothing like it phase of our lives. I really liked in general just Buffy being back at home, back in the summer's home, back in the craftsman. Joyce being Speaker 2 (23:27) back is. Speaker 3 (23:28) Joyce being back. That relationship is so crucial. And so Dawn as a one of the, it's not just about Joyce. It's like Dawn is a reason, a real reason that Buffy. has to be thinking about her family, right? She has this responsibility to a kid sister. And I liked the way that it evolved inside of these episodes and beyond from the real kind of like sisterly bickering and resentment, my kid sister and Dawn has her resentment, my sister's a slayer, no one can understand it, into in part because of the conversation and the stretch of episodes that Joyce and Buffy have about it when Joyce has her clarity, right? Speaker 3 (24:07) Buffy resists and resents and then decides to protect. And I've always loved those aspects of Buffy's story. So this felt like a really new and fresh but of a piece way to give us that aspect of Buffy's character where there are so many aspects of this responsibility that she finds maddening and difficult and they pull her away from the parts of her life that she wants to live. And then because she's Buffy, not because she's the Slayer, because she's Buffy. Buffy, she does it anyway. So I really liked what Dawn unlocked on that front. I thought there was some obviously just very funny, like, my sister is fucking her boyfriend, so I have to leave the house stuff. And she has a crush on Xander stuff. Like, all that's kind of fun. Anya and Dawn interacting, iconic. It was hard not to pick that for, like, 40 categories. But the thing I liked best about it is the Linda Loffian thing that we've talked about on A Million Pods. The greatest answer to a mystery is a person. The greatest answer to a mystery is a person. It's just like, it's a great one. Speaker 2 (25:03) So yeah, Linda Loff first says that in regards to Desmond, but I think Dawn is like the like perfect example of that. What do you mean when you say the greatest answer? What is the key? The key is Dawn. She's a child. She's a child that everyone has memories of all of a sudden. The way in which like... Willow interacts with her. And the way in which when you rewatch it, you know she's the key. When you rewatch the season from the beginning and Willow says stuff like, oh, I don't know, I just always kind of feel protective of Dawn because of XYZ. They're programmed to protect, not just Buffy, but everyone is programmed to be protective of Dawn, which I think is really, really sweet. The Dawn stuff, I would say, especially in this first stretch of the episodes, really... works for me better than I remember it working for me. And I'll be curious if that remains true for the rest of rewatch or if the character will in any way wear out a welcome. I'll be curious to watch that. Like, am I enjoying her character right now because I'm approaching it as a, you know, at a different time in my life or I'm interested in different kind of storytelling or have we just not gotten to the stretch of Dawn that I'm just like, Dawn. Speaker 3 (26:16) Yeah. Speaker 2 (26:17) She's still here. I Speaker 3 (26:18) could definitely see being a younger person watching this and being like, Dawn is fucking annoying. I'm good on Dawn. I could definitely see that. I guess I'm glad you brought up Willow and Xander and like the fact that everybody, because we've talked about this in other contexts, like a black mirror kind of can you trust your own mind idea is something I really like. So this idea of these false implanted, forced upon you invasive memories, right? Meddling with your mind so that you don't have a sense of what is real in your own life is so nefarious and insidious and foul. But it. doesn't Speaker 2 (26:50) mean that the thing they feel for Dawn is not real. Speaker 3 (26:53) Yeah. Which is so interesting. It's just so interesting. So, yeah, like, something about the way Willow calls her Donnie. Donnie. You know, there's, like, a depth of history and connection there that we come to understand, rationally, logically, is false. Yeah. But it doesn't feel that way to them. Like, when the monk is dying and says to Buffy, like, she doesn't know that about Dawn. She doesn't know that. You Speaker 1 (27:15) didn't want Speaker 3 (27:15) to do Speaker 2 (27:15) the accent? Speaker 3 (27:16) So... As you know, Adam had seen Buffy and loves Buffy and is watching it again with me and having a great time. One of the things that he just could not stop laughing about this season was that I would say, I would have to do an actual count. Maybe I'll keep track when we prep for part two. But I'm going to say 95 % of the previously-ons included that scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 (27:38) I was wondering why it was so indelible to me. And I was like, oh, because you watched it every single time. It is at the top of every Speaker 3 (27:43) single. Speaker 2 (27:44) episode. Incredible. All right. So here's what Whedon said about why they put Dawn in the show, right? Our mission statement for season five was family. When you think you've moved on and grown up and moved out of the house and are living your life, family comes back. You realize that they're always a part of your life. Also, a very strong message with me is you make your own family, or sometimes it's made for you by monks. So the introduction of Dawn. We're enacted. The meeting of Tara's family, all that stuff was very deliberate. We knew year one of college is freedom and not a lot of mom, but Christine Sutherland luckily was spending a year in Italy, so it was perfect. God, goals. We said perfect, then you'll come back and you'll be very heavy in season five and then yada, yada, yada. So Glory and Buffy having similar motivations, which is like this, like for Glory, she just wants to go home and for Buffy, it's to defend her home. And they're both after, you know, find the key, protect the key sort of thing. Also, this idea of, like, family as an episode, as the one episode that Joss writes and directs inside of these first 10 episodes. He's like, here's the theme of the season, and here's an episode that we've titled Family. Yeah. In which Tara's shitty family will come and try to make her feel bad for being gay. I mean, actually, at college. And a demon and whatever. Speaker 2 (29:04) And Buffy has the line, like, we're family. I think especially after one of the scenes I love the most in Family is when Xander and Buffy are talking about getting a present for Tara for her birthday. And they're like, she's so nice. They don't know anything about her. She's so nice. But, like, I don't really know. But she's so nice. And we, like, really like her. But, you know. But then when it's, like, time to circle the wagons. Buffy's like, we're going to fucking circle the wagons around Tara. Let me tell you what. I Speaker 3 (29:35) really like that as well. And I think it's, you know, our Scoobies are not perfect people, right? They make mistakes and they're very giving and very generous and very empathetic. But they're also, because they're young people in the world, and this is true, very selfish. And very insular sometimes. And so I like the idea. And I mean, that quote that you just read, you know, hits on both aspects of this because it has been so powerful. You know, a thing I found myself forgetting watching this season that Buffy has not also known Xander and Willow their entire life. That's the Xander-Willow bond. You know, the like, I'm proving I'm the real Xander, but the Snoopy dance. And I had to keep reminding myself that there... They have only known Buffy for a few years and Buffy has only known them for a few years because it feels like they've known each other all since they took their first breath, right? And so the fact that it was so powerful and life-altering for the three of them to forge that found family with each other, but that on just some level, they haven't welcomed Tara into that. And Anya. And Anya. And like, I love the bickering between Anya and Willow, right? And like... And I thought that the moments where Tara voiced with some degree of like, sometimes it was, well, I'm asking you this because of Dawn, not because of me. And then sometimes there was a little bit more like, it's not all about your friends. Maybe that was about lashing out. But boy, it's tough to feel like you're outside of the Scooby gang, right? And it's so easy to understand how true that would be. Totally. That you looked at and witnessed this kind of unbreakable, unflinching. thing and you were close to it and you were very close to one person inside of it, but you knew that you weren't a part of it, that's like really painful. And so I loved this episode acknowledging that and interrogating it and then finding a way to like widen the circle a little bit. Speaker 2 (31:24) And something I love about like the fact that it's challenging for Tara, it's challenging for Anya, you know, Dawn is the kid sister is like, you know, knocking on the door. Spike is, you know. has his own motivations for wanting to be closer to them, et cetera. Why does he? But then you think back to someone like Oz who like it was so easy for him because he's just Oz and he just doesn't like overthink these things and he's just sort of like, I'm here. Speaker 3 (31:48) Here Speaker