Rose Wylie: Nonconformity, Ageing & the Beauty of an Unruly Home

Homing

At 91, artist Rose Wylie shares her unconventional life story in a deeply personal conversation about creativity, aging, nonconformity, and

Key takeaways

• Rose Wylie's creative process thrives in disorder—her studio is a living archive of discarded materials that are not junk but 'collateral painting' and release.
• Her wartime childhood shaped her resilience and adaptability, with early experiences of fear transforming into acceptance of life's unpredictability.

Main topics

• Artistic nonconformity
• Aging and creativity

Notable quotes

"It's all collateral painting. It's not junk. It's process. It's release."

"I don't like people imposing stuff on me. I don't like imposing stuff on other people."

Conclusion

Rose Wylie's life exemplifies how authenticity, freedom, and creative

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) People, they look at a picture and they think, oh, well, she lives like that. Actually, I don't live like this. The rest of the house isn't quite like that. The thing is, I don't come into my studio and start putting things away. I come in and start painting. It's all collateral painting. It's not junk. It's process. And it's release. It's a whole release. It's an example of someone who isn't governed by tidying up. Speaker 2 (0:26) They're not just random things I paint. They're things that I think are visually exciting. It can be anything. That's why people say I don't seem to have a particular direction. I am the direction. The direction is an exciting image. I don't like people imposing stuff on me. I don't like imposing stuff on other people. Speaker 2 (0:51) I liked the swap from taking a marvellously expensive pair of silk trousers and converting them into something that I'd made out of a black-out curtain. That all appealed to me. Speaker 1 (1:10) Hello, welcome to Homing. I'm Matt Gibbard. My guest today is the artist Rose Wiley. Rose is 91 years old and she's had a pretty remarkable career. So she stopped painting in order to raise her three children and only returned to it in middle age. It wasn't until she was in her 70s that she finally became well known. And now, of course, she's celebrated around the world. and had a major exhibition at the Royal Academy earlier this year. I recorded this with her at her house in Kent, where she's lived for 58 years, no less. And it really is one of the most extraordinary homes I've been to, I think. We sat upstairs in her studio and there's discarded paper all over the floor. There's paint covering the windows. There's half-empty paint pots all over the place. It's pretty extraordinary. And then down in her kitchen on the ground floor, there's a big mountain of uneaten cakes. some of which are apparently four years old. The garden outside is essentially left to grow wild, so Jasmine kind of comes in through the windows and grows across the walls inside. But the thing is, it doesn't feel arbitrary to me. I think really the house supports the way that she wants to live and wants to work. And it's basically adapted around her creativity and supported her life for nearly six decades now. Rose really is a genuine non-conformist. She hates being told what to do, but equally she doesn't like telling other people what to do either, which I really respect. There's a very strong sense of freedom running through both her home and her life as a whole. And at the age of 91, her energy has inevitably declined a bit, but she told me that the excitement definitely doesn't drop. So this is a conversation ultimately about freedom, about creativity, aging, and I guess allowing a home and a life to develop on its own terms. This is the amazing Rose Wiley. Hope you enjoy it. Speaker 1 (3:13) Hi, Rose. Welcome to Homing. Thank you so much for doing this. It's a very exciting day for me. This is, I mean, I knew partly what to expect because I've seen it photographed, but actually being here in your house is unbelievable. I always start at the beginning, but I just wanted to say before we do that we will do a tour of this place together and we'll make that available on the Patreon platform. I'm really looking forward to doing that. I can't wait. But let's start at the beginning. Where did you grow up? or Hythe, Kent, on the coast. Okay, so not far from here. Not far Speaker 2 (3:53) from here. Speaker 1 (3:54) Okay. Speaker 2 (3:55) It's not far, half an hour from here. Speaker 1 (3:57) But didn't you spend some time abroad as well when you were young? Speaker 2 (4:01) Yeah, I lived in Kent and I lived in Wales and I lived in Vancouver and I lived in India. Speaker 1 (4:11) So if I say to you, where was your childhood home, where was the home that you spent? the most time in? Was that in Kent? Speaker 2 (4:20) Yes. Also, I lived near Bromley, and I was there for the whole of the war. So that was from 1940 to 1945. So that has a big impression. Yes, I can remember it, and it was an exciting time. You know, bombs falling, dogfights. above rationing, shrapnel, all of that stuff. So that was of chunk. But then after that, I lived in Hive. And I went to the art school in Folkestone. I couldn't pick. I think mixed. I can't pick one and say I was there for a long time and that's the one I remember the most or have the most affection for or the most disaffection for. But it doesn't occur. They were a bit mixed. Speaker 1 (5:07) Okay. You described the war years there as exciting. Was it not terrifying as well, or did you not get that from it? Well, Speaker 2 (5:18) it should have been terrifying. Speaker 1 (5:21) Yeah. Speaker 2 (5:22) But it was... I think if you are five when it starts, I think the beginning was the most frightening. There was this idea people were worried and we were blocking up our houses because we thought gas, there'd be gas attacks. And we had to cut air out and we were all advised by the BBC to get a room and make it gas-proof. And that was a bit frightening. in fact, didn't have a good feel to it. And I really didn't like gas masks. We were also asked to wear gas masks. I hated gas masks. I hated the smell of the rubber and the enclosure. I really didn't like it. But after that, somehow the fear of gas went. The fear of gas was at the beginning. Can you remember, is this part, do you know that, I think it was about 1940 that the gas raids and the sirens were, we were all prepared for it. But that went because Germany was no longer about to invade. I don't know, whatever it was, that fear disappeared. But that was taken over by... Speaker 2 (6:36) airplanes in the sky and bombing and Stuka dive bombers. But we were involved. My older sister was keeping a diary and writing down how many air raids there were. And sometimes there were, I don't know, 11 air raids in one day or so. So you kind of got into the... Speaker 2 (7:03) into the feel of it, which was not fair, but recording, I don't know what it was. And you couldn't get sweets, that was different, and you couldn't get ice cream. And we all had ration books, and you couldn't buy much bacon. But one of the frightening things, and I've got a painting about this, was a high-explosive bomb which landed on the house next door. And the noise of the bomb was frightening. Speaker 1 (7:37) Yeah. Speaker 2 (7:37) Because it got incredibly loud. Speaker 2 (7:41) and then it exploded. Before it exploded, the noise was getting louder and louder, and that was frightening. That's amazing. Speaker 1 (7:51) It seems to me what you're describing is as a child, you quite quickly accept what the norm is. I do, Speaker 2 (7:59) that's what it was. That was the case, that's what it was. Speaker 1 (8:02) It was what it was. I think Speaker 2 (8:04) the difficult thing is something closer home. Speaker 1 (8:07) Yeah. Speaker 2 (8:07) It's been, I don't know. chased by a dog who's all being frightened of the dark, frightened of a ghost in your room when you go to bed. That is more frightening than something that was happening nationally. Yeah, so interesting. We were all sharing it. It was not just a fear of the child. It was shared and it was common to everyone. That's fascinating. Speaker 1 (8:33) So am I right in saying you're the youngest of seven children? What was that like then? What was your place in the hierarchy, as it were? What kind of character were you? Speaker 2 (8:42) Well, it was terrific because my parents by that time had given up a bit on discipline. They'd given up. They realised it didn't really matter because of the other six in front. So I probably had quite a free time. which I enjoyed very much. And one of my brothers wasn't well. He had aspirin bronchitis. That took up my mother's time. So she was involved with taking care of him and giving him proper attention. And so I was allowed to... Well, I did all Speaker 1 (9:16) these wonderful things which you Speaker 2 (9:17) can't do anymore. You can... I used to swim out into the sea. Speaker 2 (9:23) and it was extremely rough, a long way. I think if anything had happened to me, my parents would have been had up for neglect because they allowed me to do it. But they thought, and I think they were right, they thought she can swim, she can manage, let her get on with it. And I think they were perfect. I have no criticism about my parents. I thought they were... You know, ace. Speaker 1 (9:49) What a lovely thing to say. That's quite rare, isn't it? I Speaker 2 (9:52) think so. Speaker 1 (9:52) Yeah. I Speaker 2 (9:53) think so. I mean, I walked all over the place by myself. It was dangerous. And there were a lot of people who'd had a hard time in the war and they were emotionally disturbed and they were sort of around. And so to be walking as a child unattended for miles from home by myself was actually also slightly dangerous. Speaker 1 (10:16) Yeah. So with that time to yourself, did you make art? Speaker 2 (10:21) When I was, I think, probably five, I had a paint box, a present, and it was green and it was proper. It was Winsor & Newton. It wasn't plastic. It didn't have little... It wasn't a child's paint box. It was a proper paint box. I used to paint in... Well, I used to paint on paper, but I used to paint... take books from the, you know, shelves in my house, grown-up books, and paint. If there were illustrations in Greek legends or something, I used to paint, or maps, whatever. I used to paint in... on grown-up books, which I also, I mean, I was allowed to do that. They didn't, my parents didn't stop me from doing that. They didn't say, look, here, I have some children's books. You paint in those, but don't paint in the others. They allowed me to do that. I did have children's books as well. I had those lovely books where you add water. You get them from Woolworths. Yeah. You paint with water and then the sort of vague, faint, rather distant colour comes up. That was great fun. I liked all that. Speaker 1 (11:30) Yeah, my kids love those. Speaker 2 (11:31) I know. And I painted Christmas cards and birthday cards and Christmas decorations. But I didn't. I think children now are encouraged to, you know, the parents give them canvas and say, look, paint. But I didn't have that. But Speaker 1 (11:47) I Speaker 2 (11:48) wasn't stopped, which is a big point. Speaker 1 (11:51) So looking back on yourself now at that age, how would you describe yourself as a character? Speaker 2 (11:57) I suppose I wasn't a snowflake. You know, I wasn't a little girly girl. I had bows and arrows. I climbed trees. Speaker 2 (12:11) I swung across bridges, adventurous probably. I probably would say I used to ride bikes all over the place. I used to do things like use my dolls as skates on the floor. I mean, I wasn't, I made powder from bricks. So I did, I had quite a lot of boy type characteristics. I used to ride my brother's bikes, which had on. a bar cross, you know, the boys' bikes were different. Girls' bikes didn't have the bar cross. So it was, it was, it was, and you had to sway around each side because I couldn't reach the pedals. So I suppose that does link to art. You know, I, I used what was there. I didn't have things specially bought for me. You know, you're a girl, here you are, here's a nice new bike. I didn't have that. I rode my brothers' and sisters' bikes. Which I think, actually looking back, I think it's good training. Makes you self-reliant and you don't expect anything to happen. Speaker 1 (13:22) Aside from the war years, is there anything else in that time that you think, looking back on it, was particularly challenging for you or was quite formative? You know, any experiences or anything like that? Speaker 2 (13:37) I don't think so. I know that I always got to... I soon got to the idea that everybody, the whole lot of my family above me, there was, you know, a mother, a father, and then other brothers and sisters, that they all had priority. So you got the idea that later on, when you, as an artist, you're neglected and you get no visibility at all. It didn't affect me because I'd been quite used to being, you know, certainly there, given a place, but not, I didn't have, I didn't have power. Speaker 1 (14:13) But Speaker 2 (14:14) I don't like power anyway. I have no interest in power. Speaker 1 (14:18) I Speaker 2 (14:19) didn't have, I think some children grow up, I don't know, I think they grow up as this sort of apple of the parent's eye and they are, at least the parents think they are just supremo and they are. But I mean, in my case, I was just the last of seven and you didn't get a kind of homage from parents, a special place. You took your place. As I said, I think that's actually a rather good idea. Speaker 1 (14:45) That's really interesting, Rose. You went to art school in Kent, as you said. I think you were 19 when you met your future husband, Roy Oxlade, is that right? Speaker 2 (14:57) No, I was 21. Oh, 21, okay. That was post-Gilsmiths. I met him at Gilsmiths. Speaker 1 (15:02) I mean, you were together for so many years. Can you remember what you made of him when you first met him and what brought you together? What sort of clicked between the two of you, do you think? Speaker 2 (15:12) Certainly, I remember Roy was... intrigued with me because the first thing he noticed was that I didn't go around with a handbag. He thought that was pretty good. He liked that. He thought, why do women go around? His particular thing was the Queen always had a handbag on her arm. And he thought, you know, why do they? Anyway, I didn't have a handbag. And he thought that was intriguing. I've intended I've never had a dressing table. I don't have one now and I've never had one. Speaker 1 (15:45) I don't want one. Well, seeing as you brought that up, you were telling me, I hope you don't mind me saying, you were saying earlier that you like to have the kind of shoulder pads because you prefer the silhouette of it, right? Speaker 2 (15:56) Yes, I like a bit of pop. Speaker 1 (15:58) And what do you do for those shoulder pads? Speaker 2 (16:01) Oh, I just get a bit of kitchen paper. Sometimes I used to have two, you know, you can tear them easily and break off. Sometimes I took two sheets and I used to stuff them in. But I decided after doing that for about 15 years that that was a bit big and I've reverted to one sheet of kitchen paper. And they're terribly useful. I mean, if they fall out, you can wipe your painting with them, you can blow your nose, you can... But they do fall out, but it's precarious looming, and I don't mind a bit of precarious looming because I think things can get a bit dull, and it's quite funny if it falls out. You know, it can be stuck on your chest or your back or, you know, falls on the floor. It just kind of opens the door to things. People find it amusing anyway, but it gives a better shape. You might say to me, well, why don't I buy shoulder pads? But shoulder pads aren't, that is, manufactured ones. They're not the same. Speaker 1 (17:04) You Speaker 2 (17:04) can, with a bit of paper, you can sort of get them to go Speaker 1 (17:08) upwards a bit. You can tweak them up a bit. Speaker 2 (17:10) Anyway, they are, and you can have a new one in every day. And often they're littered around the house because I don't like waste and I don't throw them away. So I've got them all over the place. Speaker 1 (17:23) I find that so interesting. It seems to me it's sort of a bit of a metaphor for everything. It probably is. Yeah, because you're saying that it's, well, it's so many things, isn't it? And Speaker 2 (17:34) it's also cheap. Well, it's cheap, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's available, it's cheap. You don't have to, you know, it's not something, it's not privileged in any way. It's just a bit of paper. Speaker 1 (17:43) In Speaker 2 (17:44) fact... To add to that, if it falls out and if I'm out at supper somewhere and it's gone, I think, oh, it's a nuisance because I've lost my shoulder pads. So I can pick up a table napkin. They're usually paper. Well, it depends where you're eating, but I don't have paper. I have linen ones, but generally outside they're often paper. I often tear one in half and stick half somebody's table napkin in my shoulder just to keep the balance. Keep the thing going. But that's, I think that's slightly unusual. Speaker 1 (18:18) I think it is unusual. I mean, I haven't come across it before. You've never Speaker 2 (18:21) seen a woman tear a table napkin off and stick it in her shoulder. Speaker 1 (18:26) I'll look out for it now. Speaker 2 (18:28) Look out for it. I've never met anyone else who does it. Yeah, yeah, Speaker 1 (18:33) yeah. Speaker 2 (18:33) But it's expediency. It's, again, my art. You look around, you know, what's here, a table napkin. I'll use that. Speaker 1 (18:41) Yeah. It's expedient, but it's also, you're saying that you like it aesthetically as well. Speaker 2 (18:46) Yes, it's to do with the shape, all of it. Speaker 1 (18:51) Yeah. And also, you've described it as a bit of