211: Pacific Theater Epilogue with Capt. Mac Caldwell

History That Doesn't Suck

This epilogue episode of History That Doesn't Suck explores the Pacific Theater of World War II through deep dives into military strategy, amp

Key takeaways

• The term 'theater of war' predates World War II and originates from military strategy terminology rooted in ancient Greek and Latin concepts, not cinema or newsreels.
• American public perception of WWII is skewed toward Europe due to pop culture influence like Saving Private Ryan, overshadowing the critical role of the Pacific Theater.

Main topics

• The Pacific Theater of World War II
• Military strategy: MacArthur vs. Nimitz

Notable quotes

'Theater was derived from the Greek word theatron and then the Latin theatrum, both of which mean a place where things are observed.'

Conclusion

This episode underscores how the Pacific Theater was not just a distant front but a pivotal and often overlooked chapter in

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) Hello, friends. Professor Jackson here. I want to introduce our newly launched show, Government That Doesn't Suck. I know across the aisle even, some, if not many of you are already thinking, but our government does suck. I get it. And yet, if that's our mindset, how can we ever improve it? That question is exactly what drives our new show. Government That Doesn't Suck explores the ways our American system of government functions or fails to. Each episode blends historical narrative with insightful conversations featuring experts. You can catch these new episodes during the off weeks of History That Doesn't Suck. Our upcoming schedule features topics like space exploration, the interstate and highway safety, the development of the internet, and the National Weather Service. In other words, when you pull up the weather app via the internet before you set out to drive on a freeway, you're benefiting from at least a few aspects of our government that don't suck. This new podcast features its own dedicated feed, which is available on whichever platform you are currently using. To listen, simply search for and follow Government That Doesn't Suck or go to htdspodcast.com. Speaker 3 (1:17) Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson. And today, we're going to take a break from our narrative episodes to unpack some of the bigger themes and discuss stories we couldn't fit into our recent Pacific-focused episodes. I'm joined by Riley Neubauer, my executive editor, as co-host. Together, we're welcoming back Captain Mack, also known as Mark Caldwell, a Marine veteran and favorite guest, returning three years after our first conversation in episode 135. about Marines at Belleau Wood in World War I. In this epilogue episode, we're diving deeper into the Pacific, answering listener questions, unpacking the strategy battles, we might say, between Douglas MacArthur and Chester Nimitz, analyzing the evolution of amphibious warfare, marveling at the Forrest Gump-like life of Lieutenant Colonel Evans Carlson and the story of his Marine Raiders, and reflecting on how World War II was an incredible moment of sacrifice and unity among Americans. from privileged elites and movie stars to everyday heroes. I love this conversation. But first, let me share a few quick updates about everything we have going on at History That Doesn't Suck. If you haven't heard, we have a new series called Government That Doesn't Suck. New episodes of GTDS drop during the off weeks of History That Doesn't Suck in its own feed. Just search for Government That Doesn't Suck to learn more about how our government's designed and times when it's delivered on that constitutional mandate to provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty. It's certainly not a love letter to government, but I think you'll find some moments of perspective that may help interpret the depressing, everything is broken headlines today. And on that topic, I also humbly recommend my book, Been There, Done That, How Our History Shows What We Can Overcome. It's available wherever you get your books and audiobooks. The audiobook is narrated by me, of course. Finally, We've just announced new tour dates for the Pacific Northwest. I've never been to that part of the country, and I can't wait to bring my live show there. More dates will be added for 2027, so be sure to go to htdspodcast.com for the latest, as well as follow us on Facebook and Instagram. And now, let's go gun-ho island hopping through the Pacific Theater with my special guest. Speaker 3 (3:40) Mack, I realize that you've moved on from the Marine Corps and yet once a Marine, always a Marine, right? Indeed. So I'm going to stick with Captain. It's how both I and our listeners all know you. Right before we got rolling, you were telling me about an experience you had shortly after our Bella Wood chat. Speaker 2 (3:58) Shortly after we recorded our first episode on Bella Wood, Greg, back in 2023, I left active Speaker 3 (4:05) duty. Speaker 2 (4:05) I can't believe it was that long Speaker 3 (4:06) ago. Speaker 2 (4:06) Yeah, I know. Right. I left active duty and I went to actually use the GI Bill to go back to school and get a master's degree. And eventually I had an alumnus from my business school reach out to me and say, oh my gosh, I just heard you on History That Doesn't Suck. You're Matt Caldwell. Turns out this guy, I'll shout him out. His name is Mick Dinner. Mick was a captain himself in the Marine Corps. He went to business school a couple of years ahead of me. We ended up becoming great friends. I worked an internship for him a couple of years ago. So you and your podcast have connected me to some great Marines and great legacy. But Mick is one of those. He's an Afghanistan veteran. Mick, thanks for your service. And thanks to all the Marines who listened in on the Belleau Wood episode. Speaker 3 (4:50) And yes, thank you to you and all of our service members across the branches. Well, Riley, you are our director today. Please lead us. Where are we starting? Speaker 1 (5:01) All right. So one of the things that we're planning to do differently with this epilogue episode is that we've asked all of you, our listeners, if you had any questions about the Pacific War. And so we'll do our best to answer as many of those questions as possible as we have this more fluid conversation. But I'd like to kick us off with one from Mrs. Kelly Jones, who sent it in via Instagram. And she is asking why. It's called a theater of war. So why do we refer to this as the Pacific theater? And I think Captain Mack, you're probably the most poised to answer this one. Speaker 2 (5:34) Yeah, sure. I'm happy to take that. This is a great question because I think in this era of World War II, so much of what was broadcast to the American public came through the newsreel in the theater, right? So it's easy to associate those two things and think that the theater of war was what people saw on a Saturday evening when they went downtown to watch a movie. But in reality, we were referring to theaters of war long, long before this conflict ever came up. Theater was derived from the Greek word theatron and then the Latin theatrum, both of which mean a place where things are observed. And that was first adapted to a military context by the French, French Marshal Vauban and later Jomini, who referred to it as their theater of operations. And that really became standardized in the Napoleonic era. which of course naturally tripled down to everyone who studied Napoleon, which was anyone worth their salt in military operations in the 19th and 20th century. So the term theater long predated the newsreel, unfortunately, but that's kind of where we got the term theater of war from. Speaker 3 (6:41) Oh, I've got nothing to add to that. That was just so crushed and like, thank you. Speaker 1 (6:46) I think as we move into this conversation about the Pacific theater, there might be some conferences that we should probably discuss and make sure we're all aware of how we have gotten to the Pacific theater, to the planning and to all of the action that we've been seeing in these past episodes. Speaker 3 (7:03) Absolutely. We have mentioned some of these conferences, singular conferences, multiple times across several episodes. We can think about the Atlantic Charter and there are different priorities for the British. That's the Nazi threat that's just across the channel. And what I feel is often lost on 21st century America is that we really love World War II history. But when we say World War II history, this is just my sense from the classroom, from conversations I've had throughout my career. What we really mean is D-Day into the liberation of Europe. And all of those earlier years, and frankly, the whole Pacific is so often forgotten. And it gets lost on us. Even as we know, we all know Pearl Harbor is what pulled America into the war. And yet somehow we just seem to forget Japan as a major enemy. There's this real fixation on the Nazi threat. And that's not to say it isn't important, right? I'm not trying to downplay it. I'm just trying to remind us that when America entered the war, we were really thinking about Japan far more than we were Europe. And that's more of a... Us today, looking back, we've got this more European-leaning narrative than Americans did at the time of these conferences. I Speaker 2 (8:18) think a lot of that is attributable to pop culture, Greg. Yes. Because much of the way that certainly my generation and those before me digested World War II history was through films like Saving Private Ryan, for example, which so graphically depicted the D-Day invasion and amphibious assault, which I know we'll talk about later. Right. Pop culture, I think, drove a lot of our understanding of World War II. And it wasn't really until later that we started to develop a pop culture appreciation for the Pacific theater. So you're right. There's a lot of the war that happens on the other side of planet Earth that often I think it's overlooked because maybe it's not as glamorous on the top line, but it really is where a lot of hard fought heroism took place on both sides of the war. Speaker 3 (9:03) All right. All that said. Let's head to December 1941 slash January 1942, shall we? So Speaker 1 (9:10) we're looking at the first Washington conference, aka Arcadia, which happens post Pearl Harbor. And that's really where this Europe first policy gets solidified between the American and the British allies. Speaker 3 (9:23) It's where Speaker 1 (9:23) FDR and Churchill meet. How Speaker 3 (9:25) can we forget that this is the time that Winston Churchill is in the buff before FDR? and proclaims that he has nothing to hide, burying all before the president of the United States. Speaker 1 (9:36) Yeah, really solidifying this close friendship. Speaker 3 (9:39) That will solidify it. Yep. All right. Speaker 1 (9:43) So the next conference that's important for us is the second Washington conference, which is June of 1942. That's where we discuss the North African front. And that's where the allies decide that the invasion across the English Channel is going to be postponed. Speaker 3 (9:57) Yes. And George C. Marshall is super frustrated because he wants to hit France. But Churchill sees Italy as the soft underbelly. And so he wants to start in North Africa. Speaker 1 (10:06) Then we have the Casablanca Conference, which is January of 1943. That's really where this Italian campaign is planned. That's where a... so-called cross-channel invasion of 1944 is planned. We will talk more about that in later HTDS episodes. And that's also where the Allies adopt a policy of unconditional surrender, kind of seeing forward to the end of the conflict. Speaker 3 (10:30) And Admiral King is chomping at the bit for more support in the Pacific as these decisions are being made. Speaker 1 (10:37) Then we have our third Washington conference. These same issues are continuing to be discussed. This is in May of 1943. That's where the second part of the Italian campaign is planned. The Allies are also focusing on increasing air attacks against Germany. And this is where the intense focus on the Pacific theater. begins to expand. This is when the Americans really want to turn focus back towards the Pacific. Speaker 2 (11:04) Yeah, so a little color on the third Washington conference. In August of 1942, simultaneous to the Guadalcanal campaign occurring, right? Operation Watchtower. Right. There was a largely failed attempt at an amphibious landing in, yeah, in northern France by... a small French force and a large kingdom force predominantly consisting of Canadian infantry. It was a colossal failure. So they basically attempted at landing at a pier in Dieppe. It ended up resulting in very short-term seizure because they caught the Germans by surprise. They were basically trying to show a proof of concept of, hey, if we're going to do a full-scale invasion of France at some point, can we do it this way? Speaker 3 (11:48) Totally Speaker 2 (11:49) backfired. I mean, the Germans responded in force. The Luftwaffe was flying without opposition in northern France and obliterated the Canadian invading force. So that was kind of the backdrop coming into the third Washington conference was, hey, we attempted this amphibious landing in Dieppe. And it didn't work the way we tried it. So how can we find a proof of concept for some other method that we might be able to use to invade northern France? Where else can we try something that might work? Speaker 3 (12:19) Hence, the Pacific opportunities to work on our amphibious assaults, our ability to land on beaches. Speaker 2 (12:26) Precisely. This is simultaneous to all the war planning that's taking place in the Pacific as Nimitz and MacArthur are... game planning, how they're going to conduct this dual access approach to the Japanese islands. And so in no small way, the failure at Dieppe informs the decision to say, hey, let's use the Pacific as a proving grounds for how we can conduct successful amphibious assaults in the event that that's what we ultimately choose to do in France, which would go on to be Operation Overlord in 1944. Another story for another day, but we'll do it, I'm sure, throughout the episode now. Oh, I mean, that's what we're building toward. Speaker 1 (13:06) Now, I want to talk about the relationship between MacArthur and Nimitz, but there are two conferences I want to mention really quickly, and then I'm going to circle back to that. Love it. The first is the Cairo Conference in November of 1943. That's where we end up with a Cairo Declaration, which is kind of an extension of the Atlantic Charter. This is all covered in our HDS episodes. And then we also have the Tehran conference in November, December 1943. That's a huge moment. It's when the big three meet for the first time. So that's FDR, Churchill, and Stalin. And that's where this date for Operation Overlord, a.k.a. D-Day, a.k.a. what we're going to talk about in future HDS episodes, is set. So with that background, Captain Mack, I want to ask you more about this relationship between MacArthur and Nimitz as the United States in the Pacific focuses more on kind of joint attacks between air, sea, and land. Speaker 2 (14:02) Yeah, great question. At the very least, the relationship between these two very powerful, very political figures was tenuous. It's worthwhile to consider