Saturday Matinee: The Untitled History Podcast

History Daily

This episode explores the creation, cultural impact, and historical significance of Asterix the Gaul, tracing its origins from post-war France to global phenomenon. Host Gareth

Key takeaways

• René Goscinny (Polish-Jewish immigrant) and Albert Uderzo (Italian-French illustrator) met in 1951 at World Press in Paris, forming a telepathic creative partnership that defined European comics.
• The series debuted in the magazine Pilote in 1959 and quickly became the second best-selling comic series worldwide with nearly 400 million copies sold across dozens of languages.

Main topics

• Creation of Asterix the Gaul
• Post-WWII French national identity

Notable quotes

"Asterix lets them leap over the events of the Second World War and in a way to just completely forget about that."

Conclusion

The episode reveals how Asterix transcended its status as a children's

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) For many of us, going further isn't a choice. It's a feeling we can't ignore because ambition has a way of outgrowing where it began. Speaker 2 (0:11) Turning dreams into direction. Speaker 2 (0:17) Every journey brings us closer to the life we imagine. Speaker 2 (0:23) So, where will your journey take you? Etihad. Beyond Borders. Speaker 3 (0:38) I don't know if this is true, but it seems to me that I grew up in a golden age of comic strips. There were still a lot of local newspapers around, delivered to your door or available from machines on the street. And in each of them was a comic section, or the funnies. Some were old stalwarts like Blondie or Dennis the Menace. There were the ones I gravitated to like Garfield, Calvin and Hobbes, and The Far Side. And there were the ones my parents read like Doonesbury. All of these were vastly popular. running year after year, producing books, magazines, t-shirts and coffee mugs, even movies. But there is one comic strip, first published in 1959, that has gone on to become the second best-selling comic series in the world, and I've never read a single panel. Asterix the Gaul is a French comic, translated the world over, telling the story of a small French village holding out against the Roman Empire. But it turns out it's a lot more than that. And on today's Saturday matinee, we're sharing an episode from the Untitled History Podcast that explores this comic, the rebuilding of a national myth in the aftermath of World War II, and the making of modern France one hand-drawn panel at a time. I hope you enjoy. While you're listening, be sure to search for and follow the Untitled History Podcast. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you. Speaker 2 (2:01) For many of us, going further isn't a choice. It's a feeling we can't ignore because ambition has a way of outgrowing where it began. Speaker 2 (2:13) Turning dreams into direction. Speaker 2 (2:18) Every journey brings us closer to the life we imagine. Speaker 2 (2:24) So, where will your journey take you? Etihad. Beyond Borders. Speaker 4 (2:32) The best-selling comic series in the world is One Piece, but the second best-selling, with almost 400 million copies sold, is neither British nor American. It is, in fact, the story of a small French village holding out against the Roman Empire. In this episode, we're going to look at the history and cultural impact of Asterix the Ghoul. Hello, my name is Gareth Edwards and welcome to the Untitled History Podcast. Join me each week alongside world-leading experts as we take a deep dive into your favourite topics from throughout history. From the ancient world to the modern and with plenty of historical rabbit holes in between, we'll cover famous and not-so-famous moments in history from all across the globe. Speaker 4 (3:16) The year is 50 BC. Gaul is entirely occupied by the Romans. Well, not entirely. One small village of indomitable Gauls still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the Roman legionaries, who garrison the fortified camps of Totorum, Aquarium, Laudanum and Compendium. So starts the adventures of Asterix, Obelix and Friends in almost every English translation. Adventures that have sold 393 million copies, over 65 years of continuous publication. Adventures that have been turned into some of the earliest audiobooks, into films, games, theme parks and more. Yet beneath that success lies a remarkable story of a French-Jewish writer and an Italian immigrant writing about the history and foibles of the country they both loved and called home, and of France trying to rebuild its national myth and economy. in the aftermath of German occupation and the horrors of war. And to help me explore that topic to hear today is Julie Kalman. Julie, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank Speaker 1 (4:24) you for having me. It's a great pleasure to be here. Speaker 4 (4:27) So for those unfamiliar with her work, Julie is a professor of history at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia. She is a French historian who is interested in the history of nationalism and migration. And listeners, the clue as to why I particularly wanted Julie on the show for this one comes in the book she is currently working on, which the book provisionally titled Asterix and the Making of Modern France, which is her fifth book, is about exactly the stuff we're going to talk about today. So thank you so much for coming on. Speaker 1 (4:57) My pleasure. Always happy to talk about Asterix. Speaker 4 (5:02) So we'll get into some of its impact and why this is fascinating from a historical perspective, not just from a literary historical perspective in a bit. But I almost feel like we should start this show by talking about how we both came to Asterisk. So I came to Asterisk as a kid, as I think a lot of British kids did. I always think that there's an entire generation of... archaeologists and historians who had a product of two things, which is reading asterisk books when you're small and then watching Time Team on TV as you get older. And so my earliest memories of things like the first book that I ever remember owning was Asterix and Cleopatra, which I bought with book tokens that I thought covered the entire cost, but didn't. My mum was actually topping it up so that I could buy an asterisk book, asterisk books, because I read them at school in the library. So that was my first encounter and that got me hooked forever. What was your first encounter with Asterix? Speaker 1 (6:04) Well, so I was born and grew up in Melbourne, which is a long, long way from Europe, but I'm the child of immigrants. And my mother actually was born in Belgium, which of course is the heart of, or has long been the heart of French language comics, certainly was in the beginning. And there were always Tintins and Asterix's in the house. I had older siblings, so they were already there for me. And any day I was off sick, I would take the entire pile of Asterix's, put them by the bed and just read through them over the course of the day. I studied French at school because that was the only foreign language that was offered. There was one volume in French and I remember the very first pun that I understood and the enormous pleasure that came with that. So I've been hooked also for a very long time. Speaker 4 (6:59) And what I love about both our descriptions there, and this will come up in the show, I suspect, is they both absolutely map onto the stories of the creators and also what the creators loved doing and why these books clearly hit with everyone. And included, when I say creators, I include within that the legendary English translators who we'll talk about as well. But maybe, Julie, do you mind setting the scene for a bit? I feel like Rob, before we talk about how Asterix as a book series, as a comic series, it becomes a book series, comes into being. We can't separate that from the stories of their creators, can we? Speaker 1 (7:41) True. So they're a duo. Rene Gossigny was the author. Albert Udazor was the illustrator. Speaker 1 (7:55) So Goscinny was the child of Polish Jewish immigrants to France. He was born in 1926. And when he was two years old, his father got a job in Argentina. His father was a chemist. They all basically up sticks and moved there. And this is what saved them because the rest of the family in France were wiped out during the war. So Goscinny spends his childhood, he goes to the French high school in Argentina, in Buenos Aires. His father dies in 43 and he leaves school. There's an uncle in New York who says, come and I'll find work for you. So he goes to New York. He just wants to make people laugh. He draws. He's not a bad artist. So he's basically going around trying to sell his comics. Meets Harvey Kurtzman, of course, one of the founders of Mad Magazine, and they maintained a friendship over many years. Does his military service in France. So he's very attached to France. and then kind of gets into those circles of comic writers. That's the time when he meets Morris, who is the illustrator of Lucky Luke, and Goscinny becomes the author. So Goscinny wrote many of the Lucky Luke comics also. Speaker 1 (9:19) And he meets a fellow called Georges Trois-Fontaines. George Three Fountains is the translation of his name. Trois-Fontaines is trying to build a publishing empire in Brussels. And he says offhand to Goscinny, oh, yeah, if you're ever in Brussels, look me up. And Goscinny takes that as an invitation. So a year or so later, he lands in Brussels. Trois-Fontaines is very surprised to see him. But Trois-Fontaines is setting up a business called The World's Press, a very grand name. which is going to supply content to magazines, comics and columns, and he's setting up a Paris office on the Champs-Élysées, so he's making a statement, and he sends Goscinny there. And that's where Goscinny meets Udozo. Speaker 4 (10:07) Well, let's dig a bit into Goscinny first and his background in that regard, because I think it's so interesting, some of the things you've touched on there. And also, I think this is very much in the spirit of Asterix, is in true British style, I'm going to absolutely mangle every French word and name I say in this, which I feel he'd really find is appropriate, given how... what asterisks in Britain does in its own native translation. Speaker 4 (10:38) I really like the story of him because he's so very French. He is distinctly French and has a tragically early death as well, which we'll talk about in a bit. But as you've described here, even he is on the immigrant journey. He goes to Argentina, he spends his time in New York, and he comes back. When he serves in the army, actually, he's in the Alpine Infantry Battalion. I mean, obviously only for a year because it's National Service. But his journey, in a way, is actually very, very similar in many aspects to what a lot of French people will have or those who come from abroad. And as you say, he studies French and he goes to a French school in Argentina. And it's very clear to me from all I've looked into and studied on him that he sees himself as very, very French. He genuinely loves France as much as part of this. There's no question in his mind that he's not French, even though he spends time in New York and elsewhere. And I kind of feel like that really comes through in his later work across the board. Speaker 1 (11:39) I think we can think of him as an expat. The family moves to Argentina in 1928 and every three years they take a cruise back to France to see family. So he has this connection. The last time they go is 1940 and they see family for the last time in the free zone and then leave and spend the war in Argentina. You know, he learns the French canon, all the old works that Racine Moliere at school in France. So he's getting a French education. So yes, he absolutely sees himself as French by nationality, if you like. Speaker 4 (12:20) And you also touched on there that he does befriend Harvey Kurtzman. And that, I feel, is also like... He is a joker. He likes making people laugh, as you say. He does that as a kid. He does that all through his life. And I've always loved the touching points you get when people encounter people, creative people encounter other creative people. And I think you can see why those two would get on. Like they have a very similar sense of humor. And you can see actually some of that come through in Asterix. You can see that come through in Mad Magazine. And we'll talk a bit about US translations a bit later, which in a way almost... Don't capture that spirit that both men get. Speaker 4 (13:04) Yeah, like... I just want listeners, you've got to understand, I think expat's a great description of him. It almost makes him love the country more, maybe, than if he'd... He sees it for what it is. He sees it as both an outsider and insider. And I think that absolutely comes through in Asterix when he comes to publishing. Speaker 3 (13:25) But, Speaker 4 (13:26) yeah, Speaker 3 (13:26) I Speaker 4 (13:26) mean, let's talk a bit about Udazzo, because his origin is both similar and different. So he is a child of Italian appearance. He moves to Paris in 1927. But his experience of growing up in France is different to Gazzini's, isn't it? Speaker 1 (13:45) Yes. So he spends his childhood in Paris, large family, relatively poor. He cops a lot of racism. in the interwar period. There was a lot of anti-Italian racism and there was this sense as, you know, the kind of anti-immigrant playbook that these Italians were coming and taking jobs. But also from 1933 onwards, of course, there's the fascist regime. Speaker 1 (14:16) He experiences a lot of that. He is an absolutely wildly talented artist. He can draw anything, and the sign of that is how young and early he gets a job as an illustrator. But one of the things that I think is really interesting for me about this story is how these two figures, who in a way we can think of as peripheral to French culture. See right through to the centre. Speaker 1 (14:47) And this is an aspect of the story for me that I'm really interested to explore. Speaker 4 (14:53) Yeah, I... The more I looked into the background of both men, the more that really does shine through. It is that they're viewing it from both the outside and the inside simultaneously. And then they've experienced or can see its negatives. But they can also see the absolute strength of French culture, of what makes it tick and what makes it work. And clearly because both men are so talented in various ways, is that they're just laser focused on that. They pick that out. in a way that few other authors have done, but they do it in such a unique and interesting way that we'll see through all their work together, not just through Asterix, where Asterix is almost the culmination of that. And I didn't realise until I started digging into it, that Oedizzo was colourblind. So he didn't do most of the inking for the comics. Speaker 4 (15:53) Yeah, his brother did it. So actually, there's two Udazos involved in this. I think it's Marcel, is it? It's his brother that does a lot of the colouring. But yeah, I mean, and before we talk about how they came together and everything else, just to really capture how much they come to represent French culture and they're accepted and appreciated for doing so. I mean, Udazo gets the Légion d'honneur, like, in 2013. And you have to suspect that... Because Gosney would have got it as well if he was still alive. Speaker 1 (16:24) One of the... Speaker 1 (16:27) Parts of this book