Blowing Up Your Life

Hidden Brain

This episode of Hidden Brain explores transformative moments—'jolts'—that disrupt routine and lead to profound life changes. Psychologist Anthony Klotz shares personal stories from his

Key takeaways

• Life-altering decisions often emerge not from careful analysis, but from sudden jolts—moments of emotional or situational disruption that break routine thinking.
• Failure can be a catalyst for change; Klotz's plant shutdown due to inventory mismanagement led him to pivot his career and life path.

Main topics

• Life-changing decisions triggered by unexpected events
• The psychology of quitting and career pivots

Notable quotes

"I quit." – Anthony Klotz, describing the moment he walked out of a lumberyard job with his friend.

Conclusion

Life jolts—whether from failure, conflict, or emotional disruption—are not random; they are signals that it's time

Transcript preview

Speaker 5 (0:00) This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. The poet Robert Frost wrote about two roads diverging in a yellow wood, a moment when a traveler must choose a path, not knowing where either one leads. Speaker 5 (0:14) In the poem, the traveler is indecisive, first looking down one path and then another. The last lines of that poem have become some of the most famous lines in American poetry. Two roads diverged in a wood, and I, I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. Speaker 5 (0:35) Perhaps you've had moments when you've confronted a similar fork in the road. Should you stay in the city you're living in or move? Should you stay with the person you're with or leave? Should you stick with the job you have or look for a new one? Speaker 5 (0:52) Many of us peer down the different paths before us, trying to figure out which one will make us happy. But like that traveler in the woods, we find there isn't enough evidence one way or the other. We go weeks, months, or years paralyzed by indecision. Speaker 5 (1:13) And then something happens. Maybe it's something big. We get a serious medical diagnosis or someone we love dies. Or maybe it's something small. You get a traffic ticket or someone looks at you funny. And all of a sudden, your dilemma is over. You know which way to go. You know which path to choose. Speaker 5 (1:37) Today on the show, and in a companion episode on Hidden Brain Plus, we examine the unexpected experiences that give us clarity. We look at how and why they are so powerful, and we explore techniques to make the best use of these moments. Stepping into the future and leaving the past behind, this week on Hidden Brain. Speaker 5 (2:08) All of our lives are made up by a series of moments. Most of them pass by without our notice. We are busy, or we are on autopilot, or we are paying attention to something else. But all of us also have moments that stand out. At these times, you can suddenly see your own life clearly. You know what to do going forward. At University College London, psychologist Anthony Klotz studies these moments. He spent years examining how they inform what we do and how they can reveal whom we want to become. Anthony Klotz, welcome to Hidden Brain. Speaker 1 (2:43) Thanks for having me. Speaker 5 (2:46) Anthony, I want to start with an experience that you had all the way back in high school. You worked part-time at a lumberyard with a friend. What was the work like? Speaker 1 (2:57) Yeah, so it was on the evenings and weekends of my senior year of high school. I worked in a lumberyard where customers would come in and ask for their two by fours to be cut to certain lengths or their plywood to be cut in certain shapes. And it was my job to help them get what they needed for whatever home improvement task they were taking on. Speaker 5 (3:23) So I understand that you and a friend were doing this work together. Was it a good work environment? What was the boss like? Speaker 1 (3:31) It was a really fun work environment, and I did work there with my good friend, and that made the hours pass quickly along with the work. Our boss, as he probably needed to be managing young students in a lumberyard, was pretty strict and stern, but that didn't really bother us. It was a good work environment. I enjoyed it. Speaker 5 (3:57) So at one point over the summer, both you and your friend needed some time off, and that led to something very interesting. Tell me the story of what happened. Speaker 1 (4:06) Yeah, so both my friend and I got called into the office one day by the boss, and he informed us that we had both requested vacation at the same time. And he said, one of you has to work here. You can't both take vacation at the same time. But we explained we both had these separate family events that we needed to attend. And so both of us sat there in an impasse saying we both need to take this time off. Speaker 5 (4:32) Hmm. I'm wondering how you heard this request from your boss that either you or your friend had to work. How did that come across to you, Anthony? Speaker 6 (4:40) It was somewhat surprising. I mean, I sort of empathized with him. Speaker 1 (4:45) He's trying to cover the shifts that are available and we're two of the main workers. But at the same time, I could tell that we both had events we weren't going to move. And so in my head as it was happening, I was wondering sort of how this was going to play out both with him and my friend. How Speaker 5 (5:00) did it turn out? Speaker 1 (5:02) Well, neither of us budged and our boss sort of got frustrated and eventually he accused or said, I think the two of you planned this together. Like you're going somewhere to goof off or something Speaker 6 (5:14) like that. And at that moment, it sort of flipped because it seemed like maybe he was accusing Speaker 1 (5:20) us of lying or there was some trust breakdown here. So there was this awkward silence. And then almost at the same time, my friend and I said, I quit. Speaker 1 (5:31) And we took off our hard hats and unclipped our measuring tape and handed it to our boss and said, that's it, we're done. Speaker 5 (5:47) It's almost like one of those Hollywood moments, right, when the worker is really frustrated and basically flings their pass down at the boss and walks out the door. Speaker 1 (5:56) That's exactly right. I mean, the stakes weren't incredibly high because this was a high school job, but nonetheless, it did have a little bit of a Hollywood quality to it. Speaker 5 (6:11) So many years later, Anthony, you were working for the food company General Mills. For listeners who are not familiar with the company, describe the range of things the company does and what your role was at the company. Speaker 1 (6:23) Yeah, so it's a food manufacturing and marketing company. Most people know it best because of the cereals that they make, like Cheerios, but they also own a number of other food brands, Old El Paso and Betty Crocker and so forth. And so I worked in food manufacturing, and so I worked in a variety of different food manufacturing plants that made different products. Speaker 5 (6:45) I understand that at one point your job was to make sure there were enough ingredients at each of the plants to make products like Lucky Charms and Cheerios, and I'm guessing that one of the essential ingredients for these plants to function was flour, and probably a lot of it. Speaker 1 (7:02) Yeah, that's exactly right. My role for a while in my very first job out of school was to be inbound planner for a cereal plant. And the main ingredient in cereal is flour. And so as an inbound planner, my number one job is to not run out of flour. Speaker 5 (7:25) So something happened in the course of this job that in some ways was very consequential for your life. Tell me what happened. Speaker 1 (7:33) Yeah, so I had gotten my degree in logistics. And so this was a logistics planning job. And I even grew up in a family business in the field of logistics. And so I thought myself a pretty good planner. But when it turned out, I was actually in this role. Speaker 6 (7:48) I Speaker 1 (7:48) tried to run inventories at a very tight level. And it Speaker 6 (7:52) turns out if you run inventories tight and Speaker 1 (7:55) you run short on one, you have to get a replacement for it pretty quickly. But one ingredient that's hard to replace quickly is flour because it comes by a slow rail car. Speaker 1 (8:08) And so while I was running inventories tight, there was a rail car delay and the plant had to shut down because I ran it out of flour. Speaker 5 (8:17) Wait, the whole plant had to shut down? Speaker 1 (8:19) Yes. So we're talking tens of thousands of dollars in cost because of my inventory management practices. I mean, the main feeling that I had was embarrassment and shame over... You know, there were a lot of people counting on this plant for livelihood and a lot of people counting on it for their breakfast. And so it was a pretty big early career failure. And of course, I worried that Speaker 6 (8:45) it was going to have a permanent impact on my career success. But then once I moved past those emotions, what really took over was Speaker 1 (8:52) this period of questioning. Is logistics what I want to do with my career? Am I actually good at this? Speaker 1 (9:01) I ended up switching. And by switching over from logistics Speaker 6 (9:05) to operations in that early Speaker 1 (9:07) career stage, it really changed what my next few jobs were going to be. And so instead of going to Minneapolis, where, by the way, my wife had been accepted into grad school and we sort of planned to move and live there for a long time, I ended up taking a transfer to Lodi, California, to another manufacturing plant. And then after that, another manufacturing plant. So it really really diverted the professional course of my career as well as the personal course of our lives as well. Speaker 5 (9:42) So, Anthony, your experience at the Lumberyard and at General Mills can show how a single moment, whether that's a mistake or a conversation, can get us out of the usual way we run our lives, which is most commonly on autopilot. I want to talk about how sometimes these moments that give us clarity can grow out of very small thoughts and feelings. You like to tell the story about a famous leader in the world of English soccer. Set it up for me. Who was this leader and what was his public profile? Speaker 1 (10:13) Yeah, so Jurgen Klopp was the manager of Liverpool Football Club and was arguably one of the greatest managers, not only in the Premier League, but in all of football. And he was coming off Speaker 6 (10:26) of several successful seasons. And back in November of 2024, Liverpool was at the top of the Premier League standings. And Jurgen made a decision publicly that really shocked the football world. He said Speaker 1 (10:40) that he was going to step down. as head coach of Liverpool at the end of the season. Speaker 5 (10:46) So behind the scenes, something had shifted for Jurgen Klopp. He said that, I am not sure I am here then anymore. That's how he reported it later on. What did he mean by that? Speaker 6 (10:59) So what nobody on the outside could see was that Juergen had attended a team meeting of all the leaders of the team a few weeks prior. And in that meeting, they were discussing plans for the upcoming summer, what players to acquire, what players to let go. And as they were having this conversation about the future of the team, he had this thought pop into his head. I'm not sure if I'm going to be here then anymore. And that That thought that seemed to come out of nowhere in his head surprised him. Why would I have that thought? So instead of just tossing that thought aside, because he's in the midst of a very high pressure season in a very high power visible position, he sat with that thought for a while and said, why did I have that? And as a result of that reflection, he came to two conclusions. The first conclusion was that his energy was not being replenished. as quickly as it was being drained. And so while he had plenty of energy in the moment, he could foresee a time in the future when that wasn't the case anymore. And the second thing that he realized was that he wanted to spend some time being, quote, a normal person for a while instead of one of the most visible figures in the world of football. Speaker 5 (12:21) How did he act on these thoughts, Anthony? Speaker 6 (12:25) He acted on these thoughts in what I feel is a very thoughtful manner. So he kept them to himself and to his inner circle. And then from what I understand, he shared it with the club and they strategized the best way for him to depart in a way that causes minimal disruption to the club. How can we best do that? And so the way that the announcement of his resignation... Speaker 1 (12:50) happened was through a video that the club put out. So it was the organization and him working together to communicate, here's what's happening, here's why it's happening. Speaker 6 (12:59) And he did it in somewhat of a fireside chat manner that really came across as genuine and humane. Speaker 5 (13:12) I want to play a little clip of how he explained his decision to his fans. Speaker 3 (13:17) I love absolutely everything about this club. I love everything about the city. I love everything about our supporters. I love the team. I love the staff. I love everything. but I know that I Speaker 8 (13:32) cannot do the job again and again and again and again. And the least thing I owe you is the truth. Speaker 5 (13:43) What was the reaction to his announcement, Anthony? Speaker 1 (13:46) The Speaker 6 (13:47) reaction was clearly surprise. And for those of Speaker 1 (13:49) us who cheer for other teams other than Liverpool, the reaction was relief, like, oh, this amazing leader is going to step down and give the rest of our teams, the rest of our clubs Speaker 6 (13:59) a chance. But I can say, although there was surprise, there wasn't a wave of... animosity or betrayal among the fan base because of Speaker 1 (14:10) how he handled it, because he handled it so professionally and expressing so much gratitude as he did it. Speaker 5 (14:22) So in time, Anthony, you decided to study these moments when we reach a realization or have an epiphany. What was it that drew you to these turning points? Speaker 1 (14:33) It was actually when I was in graduate school and I spent a week studying what we know about why employees quit their jobs. And I was Speaker 6 (14:42) thinking back to the times that I had quit my job or that I had seen others quit their jobs or when employees had quit when I was managing and Speaker 1 (14:49) what Speaker 6 (14:50) an emotional experience it was. And I was intrigued by two things, really. First was this set of literature. that surprised me and said, often quitting doesn't result from this slow, rational decision-making process. About half the time, it results from these one-off events that make a stop and rethink work. The other thing that struck me about this literature was most of it was focused on the decision to quit, not what people do. after they decide to quit or stay. And because, you know, I Speaker 1 (15:24) had had some interesting resignation experiences, what I really wanted to study was not just why people quit, but how they do once they actually decide to do so. Speaker 5 (15:35) You call these moments jolts, as in these experiences jolt us out of our regular lives? Speaker 6 (15:43) Yeah, they go by a couple of names in the literature. One of them is jolts. One Speaker 1 (15:47) of them is shocks or career shocks. But they mean the same thing. There are these moments that knock us out of autopilot and cause us to rethink what's going on in our work lives. Speaker 5 (16:02) When we come back, how jolts can point us toward the lives we want to lead and the people we want to become. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. We all experience unexpected moments in our lives, moments we didn't ask for and might not have chosen. A setback at work, a difficult conversation with a friend, a sudden realization of our own mortality. Most of the time, we treat disruptions in our lives as disruptions, things to get past quickly. But sometimes, these disruptions can force us to step back and reassess. Speaker 5 (16:57) Psychologist Anthony Claude studies how and why these moments have a big impact on our choices, our careers, and even our identities. He says that if we learn to pay more attention to them, they can help us create lives that feel more intentional and better aligned with what we truly want. Speaker 5 (17:15) Anthony, you've talked about how unexpected moments can force us to rethink our priorities. One example you point to comes from the actor Chris Hemsworth. For listeners who are not plugged into Hollywood, describe the famous role he's played as Thor, God of Thunder. Speaker 1 (17:31) So in these movies, well, he plays a god, Thor, with nearly unlimited power. And so, you know, it's a very strength forward role. But what I think why fans really like Thor and the actor behind. the Speaker 6 (17:47) character, is because he has a sense of humor Speaker 1 (17:50) and a sense of self-awareness. And so often, despite his power and his seriousness, a lot of the laughs in these Avenger movies come from times when Thor is on screen and something funny is happening, whether he knows it or not. And so I think that's why he's in a lot of people's hearts. Hello? I accept your surrender. Speaker 5 (18:15) So at one point in his career, he received some surprising health information. Describe for me the context and what he learned, Anthony. Speaker 6 (18:23) Yeah, so Hemsworth hosts a show called Limitless. And in Speaker 1 (18:27) this show, he puts himself through all of these physical and psychological tests to learn about human health and longevity and well-being. And in one episode, he Speaker 6 (18:37) took a DNA test. And he found out that in his DNA were a few genes that are linked with an increased potential for him to have Alzheimer's disease. And that really caught his attention, obviously. And he described it as this is my greatest fear because he knew it ran in his family. But at the same time, he described it as a blessing because he said, I'm learning this information while I'm still young enough Speaker 1 (19:02) that I can make changes. Speaker 5 (19:04) How did the discovery affect the way he thought about his work and his life? Speaker 1 (19:09) One of the reflections that he had as a result Speaker 6 (19:12) of this discovery was that he was spending more time on work. and less time with his family than he wanted Speaker 1 (19:20) to. It was out of balance. And so that was one of the main takeaways was like, if I have these genes that could cause changes to my mind earlier than I would like them to, I need to spend more time with my family now and perhaps a little bit less time working and perhaps a little more time on work that I actually care about. Speaker 6 (19:41) So it's a jolt where, you know, it instantly took him to thinking about his relationship with work and not necessarily overhauling it, but saying, what are some tweaks that I can make to that relationship in order to bring it more in line with what I want out of life? Speaker 5 (20:02) You say that this idea of the jolt is similar to what the psychologist Dan McAdams refers to as nuclear events, where, as he puts it, the me experienced a rather sudden or decided transformation. Speaker 1 (20:15) Yeah, I really like how that term nuclear events and how he describes them. He talks about these like scenes that stand out in bold print in our lives. And these could be positive or negative. It could be like a lucky break or a failure or a fall from grace. But yeah, one defining characteristic is that it does transform us often from being really self-focused to being a little bit more other-focused as well. Speaker 5 (20:41) One of the things that you and others have noticed is that a jolt in one domain of our life can affect what we do in other domains of our life. And Chris Hemsworth, in some ways, is an example of that. Speaker 1 (20:53) That's exactly