Episode 587: Kier Gaines: Self-Awareness, Distress Tolerance, and the Mental Skills That Build Resilience

Habits and Hustle

In this episode of Habits and Hustle, host Tony Robbins sits down with licensed therapist and bestselling author Kier Gaines to explore the transformative power of self-awareness,

Key takeaways

• Real growth starts when you stop explaining away your inner resistance and confront the uncomfortable truths about yourself.
• Actions must match intentions—fantasies about success often ignore the gritty reality of effort required.

Main topics

• Self-awareness as a foundation for personal growth
• The gap between intentions and actions

Notable quotes

"You can think, you know, I want to build this wonderful company. And you're thinking about what it's going to feel like to have employees and walk in the meeting... But you don't think about being in a hotel room while your children are asleep and you're in the bathroom with your laptop on the toilet clacking away at 2 a.m."

Conclusion

True resilience and transformation come not from avoiding discomfort or chasing idealized visions, but from

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:01) Hi Speaker 2 (0:01) guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits & Hustle. Crush it! Speaker 1 (0:06) What if protecting your peace is actually making you less resilient? We've gotten very good at avoiding discomfort and waiting until we feel ready, but that can be keeping us really stuck. Today on Habits and Hustle, I'm sitting down with Kira Gaines to talk about self-awareness and why your actions have to match your intentions and how learning to tolerate discomfort can make you stronger. Kira is a licensed therapist, keynote speaker, and a popular content creator. and the author of the new book, It All Starts When You Do. His work has reached millions, and this conversation is packed with practical ways to get more honest with yourself and start creating real change. So let's dive in. Speaker 1 (0:53) Guys, welcome to another episode of Habits and Hustle. And you guys are going to love the next guest I have. And I know I sometimes say that, but I'm always very authentic when I say that and genuine. This time, it's that times 100. His name is Keir Gaines. He's a licensed therapist. He is a wonderful content creator and a keynote speaker. He gives some of the most extraordinary advice that I've seen on social media. Thank you. No, it's true. Just, he's very, just insightful, just very heartfelt. I am so happy to have you on this podcast. Speaker 2 (1:27) I'm happy to be here. Thank Speaker 1 (1:28) you for being here. For Speaker 2 (1:29) sure. Speaker 1 (1:30) And, oh my God, I don't even know where to begin because... Because I have a million questions and I can't see like I told you. So I'm going to try to like, if you see me like squinting at a question, don't take it personally. I Speaker 2 (1:41) can't. We are Kendra Spears in visual impairment. I Speaker 1 (1:44) refuse to wear glasses. I Speaker 2 (1:47) refuse to. I have to book the appointment, then have the guy do the thing where he changes the lenses. And I have too much stuff going on. Speaker 1 (1:55) I know. I also think it's like a thing where I don't want to believe that I'm getting old. So I just think, because mine's much more of an old. old age thing. It's like a reading glasses thing. Speaker 2 (2:04) Oh, when you kind of got a light. I'm like, Speaker 1 (2:06) I can't see, I'm squinting. So that's why I'm giving you the heads up. So if I'm looking down a lot, cause it's like, I used to be able to look and look right back up this time. I might have to like really squint. Speaker 2 (2:16) Be unabashed in your poor vision is fine. You're in good company. Thank you so much. Speaker 1 (2:21) Okay. So on this podcast to keep us focused and like really alert, we take these little performance shots by Magic Mind. This one has caffeine though. Are you okay with that? Speaker 2 (2:30) okay with that. I don't know how I live without it. Speaker 1 (2:32) Okay, good. Okay. So how we do this is we, well, you did the first part. You shake it. We do the whole like, you know, cheers and then we just drink them. It's pretty simple. And then you got to tell me after the podcast, if you were like super like focused and on point. Are you ready? Speaker 2 (2:48) Okay. Cheers to more clarity and Speaker 1 (2:50) more clarity and more alertness. More Speaker 2 (2:52) alertness. Speaker 1 (2:54) I've had like five. Am I allowed to have more? Speaker 1 (2:58) I'm actually kind of scared. I literally have had like so many today. It's good though, right? Speaker 2 (3:04) Oh, it has ashwagandha in it? Speaker 1 (3:06) Yes, ashwagandha, lion's mane, turmeric. It's really, really good ingredients. You want to have mine too? It's really, really good. These are really, really, and I'm not just saying this because they're a sponsor. I love them. Speaker 2 (3:17) And this is called what, Magic Mind? Magic Speaker 1 (3:19) Mind. So your mind will be just magic. Mental performance. How Speaker 2 (3:22) long does it take to kick in? I'm feeling like I know more already. Speaker 1 (3:25) Maybe like, maybe seven, ten minutes. Speaker 2 (3:29) All right. I Speaker 1 (3:29) don't know. I mean, I would imagine even maybe sooner for some people. I don't know. Speaker 2 (3:33) Oh, that has a really good aftertaste. Yes, Speaker 1 (3:35) I know. Listen, we don't screw around here at Habits & Hustle. We're the real deal. Speaker 2 (3:41) That's subtly sweet. I'm really selling this thing now. Speaker 1 (3:44) Yeah, really. You are. You're great. That's my habit and my hustle. Yeah, exactly. I love it. Okay, so listen, where do we begin with you? I read your book. I've seen, I like deep dive. Actually, funnily enough, what happened was when I found you on Instagram, Speaker 2 (4:01) you Speaker 1 (4:01) know what? I watched so many of your videos at once, you know, like it just kind of keeps on going that now like all I see on my Instagram is you because the algorithm like picked you up so many times. Yeah. And then I did something on Instagram. And then this is how like, this is very serendipitous. But when I read your book, the first page I opened to was actually something that I talk about a lot, which I really wanted to start with because it was, like I said, very synergistic. And it was the fact that the chapter three, when he says, do your actions match your intentions? Speaker 2 (4:34) Because Speaker 1 (4:35) I'm all about. Like not what you say, not what you plan, but what you actually do. That's right. Right. Speaker 2 (4:43) So Speaker 1 (4:43) with your business, like with your being a therapist, do you like is this something that you see a lot? Is it what's your what? Tell me more about when you wrote this, what you what, why, like why? Yeah. Speaker 2 (4:55) So the book is kind of this dope amalgamation of. what I've seen in therapy, what I've learned in my trainings and what I actually experience in my everyday life. This isn't just me just giving people random thoughts and random instruction and telling everyone these things from an ivory tower. I'm in the boat with you. I don't have anything. completely figured out, but I've dedicated my life to experimenting, trying and not being too afraid to fail. The difference is, of course, I can figure out your life in three seconds. Mine, however, Speaker 1 (5:27) I struggle Speaker 2 (5:28) with mightily. Speaker 1 (5:29) But Speaker 2 (5:29) yeah, actions match intentions. I think it's one thing to say what you want to do, to envision it, to plan it, to have this grand idea of it materializing and what that will feel like. But we fall in love with the idea of things so much more quickly and thoroughly than we fall in love with the reality of them. You can think, you know, I want to build this wonderful company. And you're thinking about what it's going to feel like to have employees and walk in the meeting and maybe look like a boss in your heels and your pantsuit and feel important and entitled and have everyone look up to you. And you don't think about. Being in a hotel room while your children are asleep and you're in the bathroom with your laptop on the toilet clacking away at 2 a.m. You don't think about taking a business meeting on the beach. You don't think about all the times you fail. You don't think about pushing through and trying to persevere when you're tired and you don't feel encouraged and you don't feel motivated. That's because fantasy can be whatever, whatever you imagine it. But reality can only be what it is. So actions. are where the rubber meets the road. And if you're not taking action, you're not really getting evidence. You're not experimenting. You're not... doing the work to figure out how will I make this thing come to fruition? It's just a really well-dressed idea in your mind. And yeah, I see it in therapy all the time. I see it in my everyday life all the time. Speaker 1 (6:57) You start the book with all these, with the whole idea of uncomfortable truth. Oh Speaker 2 (7:03) yeah. Speaker 1 (7:03) Right? Like, what are they? Wow, you Speaker 2 (7:05) really read it. I did really Speaker 1 (7:07) read it. I know. You see that? Because I think, because so many things, Like I said, I saw you on social media and what you said actually really resonated. I have a whole thing, to be honest, because I find there's a lot of people on social who, you know, spew out a lot of information, that rhetoric because it's trendy or it sounds good and all these things. What I liked about your stuff and what it really kind of, why it resonated was it was sometimes a little bit counterintuitive to what you always see, which is what I like. Speaker 2 (7:37) You Speaker 1 (7:38) talk about toxic positivity, all these things that are in your book, what we're going to talk about, that I always think and talk about with my friends or on this show. But it's not like very mainstream, right? But the way you do it and the way you speak about it, number one, it lands. It's very digestible, and it's done with a lot of heart, which is why I liked it so much and why I wanted to have you on the show. This uncomfortable truth thing is something that really resonated, too, because I think that we are so stuck so much in what we want to be versus who we really are and not having the self-awareness to really kind of know who we are. That's right. And you're all about self-awareness and uncomfortable truth. I wanted you to talk about that. And I want to also hear what made you, like what brought you to this? Is it, did you kind of use yourself as an example that you had to kind of go through? Because you were a trainer, if I'm not mistaken. Personal trainer? I Speaker 2 (8:35) was a Speaker 1 (8:35) personal Speaker 2 (8:35) trainer at one point. Yeah. That's right. And Speaker 1 (8:37) then you evolved and moved into this other area of your life. So I guess maybe we should start with the origin of how you became you and then get into this all. Speaker 2 (8:47) That is. The origin of how I became me is a ridiculous story of trying and failing and doing something different and then repeating that cycle, trying, failing, doing something different, and it continues on. You know, I started off not doing either of those things. I started off working in residential property management, leasing apartments to wealthy kids who would turn in their parents' pay stubs. in order to qualify for an apartment. And they would make so much more Speaker 1 (9:19) money than I've ever seen in my life that Speaker 2 (9:21) it Speaker 1 (9:21) just had me Speaker 2 (9:22) questioning my existence. Like, am I doing something wrong? Speaker 1 (9:25) Like, I've never Speaker 2 (9:26) seen this many zeros at the end of a paycheck before. What were they doing? Everything. You know, parents had giant military contracts or parents were entrepreneurs in the tech space. Oh, yeah. Just making a ton of money. And here I am hustling. at $16, $17 an hour to barely pay my rent in my rent-controlled apartment. And after a while, I actually got fired from that. I didn't get fired. I didn't get fired. I got laid off from that job. And I promised myself that was my last time making rich people richer. So I ended up working in a community at this organization that did job and attitudinal training for folks who furthest from opportunity. Just been released from jail after 15 years. Come on in our program. We'll help you find a job. The government took your kids away. Come on in our program. You'll find a job. Substance use treatment program for five years. No problem. Come on in. We'll give you a job. We'll train you and help you find a job. And then that matriculated into education. which matriculated into special education and me having youth programs and building economic self-sustainability for children with disabilities. And then I realized I'm really good at connecting people to feelings. And then I became a therapist. So I say all of that to say that such a large portion of my life has been dedicated to helping people see the potential in themselves and turn it into something meaningful. Speaker 1 (10:46) Well, you just said something. You said you were helping people. So was that, were you already doing that kind of naturally before you even became a therapist? Like you were just that guy that people went to if they had a problem, they had an issue that they wanted to talk something through. Like, because what I said to Kier before we started the podcast was, you know, I'm a big believer that like some people like this type of thing, especially like you're either good at it or you're not. I don't Speaker 2 (11:13) care Speaker 1 (11:13) how many degrees or not degrees you have. Like you either can like. Either you're a compassionate, empathetic, and very insightful human being who can relate to people or you can't. I don't care if you have a Harvard MBA or a Harvard doctorate. It doesn't matter. Speaker 2 (11:29) That's right. That's right. And Speaker 1 (11:30) so were you already good at that before you even... Because even a trainer, by the way, because I was a trainer too years ago. A word. Yeah. That was how I started my whole business. You are kind of like, it's like a bartender. Like you are basically someone's therapist. Speaker 2 (11:45) Very much in a lot of different ways. I don't think that's something people know unless you actually worked in a business. Speaker 1 (11:51) But my whole business was based around people just wanting to talk to me. Yeah. Not working at the, you know, people, I would have to say, okay, do your squat, do your lunge. Finish your set. Yeah, do your set. And we'll talk after this. Yes, exactly. Speaker 2 (12:03) And to your point, I think in that you identify the parts of you that people resonate with the most. And you can either see that as a great quality that you have where you can lean into it and see where that opportunity takes you with the room for expansion. And that's what I did. I think that being a trainer and being a therapist aren't that different. They're not that different. It's just where you're working the physical on one side and you're really pushing and challenging people to improve their physical condition. On the mental health side, you're challenging people to improve the intangible things you can't see. You know, you can see you can see your thighs getting more toned. You know, you can see your forearms getting stronger and that back becoming more defined. You can't see someone responding better to a family member who has a disruptive and corrosive personality. You know, things that we work on in therapy, you can't see the change in that the same way. But yeah, there's a lot of similarity between those two fields. I think this is, to answer your question, I think Speaker 1 (13:05) it's a part of Speaker 2 (13:05) who I've always Speaker 1 (13:06) been. Speaker 2 (13:07) I don't think I've always accepted that this is who I've always been. But I'm now at the point where I feel very thankful to have answered the call when I heard it ring because I could have ignored it. And say, ah, maybe therapy's for someone else. I can't see myself in healing. I've never seen anyone that looks like me or talks like me or thinks like me in the therapy space. And completely brushed it off and went somewhere else. Maybe chased the money. Maybe stayed in education. Who knows where I would have been. But I'm glad I paid attention to that signal and I didn't just walk past it. Speaker 1 (13:38) Why did you pay attention? Speaker 2 (13:39) It felt like something meaningful. I think at that time in my life, I was used to leaning into things that had profound meaning. My mom passed away when I was 18, and there's something about losing a parent that takes the blinders off of life. You realize how finite your time on this earth is. And I don't think that there is a better gift to give yourself or to give the greater community than to donate your special talents to improving the lives or the livelihoods or even just the... personal ideologies of people that are just this close to a meaningful change. You're just this close. Most people are closer to where they think they need to be than they believe they are. It's just a matter of perspective shifting. It's a matter of challenging your automatic thoughts and beliefs away from shame, blame, and guilt. And it just felt good and it felt right. The Speaker 1 (14:36) shame, blame, and guilt are doozy. Those ones, they're killers. Yeah, Speaker 2 (14:41) every time. Every time. every time. Speaker 1 (14:43) Killers, that's the hardest. I mean, how do you, how does somebody who has any shame, blame, guilt, like that, how do you even overcome that in a real way? Speaker 2 (14:54) Well, the first thing is you have to know when it's happening to you without trying to sugarcoat it and make it out to be something that's more palatable. And I think the second thing is you have to realize where it comes from. In the book, I talk about how most people use the word Self-talk. Self Speaker 1 (15:09) -talk. I Speaker 2 (15:10) don't just say self-talk. I use the term self-messaging. I saw that. Yeah, it's not just talk. It's not just words. Sometimes they're impulses. Sometimes they're flashes and memories. Sometimes they're just automatic thoughts that wash over you. You don't know where they come from or why they're there, but you can feel them in a really real way. But your self-messaging, my gracious, it's so important to... the way that you move about the world and it really influences the things that you believe about yourself. It's one thing to have, you know, to blame yourself for things that you've done in your past, but there's a distinction between blaming yourself for something and beating yourself up for something that you can't change. Shame. There's a difference between feeling bad about something and allowing your environment or maybe your religious upbringing. or maybe even your narrow lived experience and perspective to make you feel worse about who you naturally are. So it's a lot of those, you can walk, step away from that from one, calling it out, two, not sugarcoating what it is, and three, understanding when it's happening to you, why it's happening to you, and what it looks like. Speaker 1 (16:22) So I guess what we should do is go back a little bit because it's easier to call out. your shame, your blaming, or your guilt, once you have the ability to acknowledge what your uncomfortable truth is. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. And then becoming self-aware enough to call those things out, right? Because it's really hard to get from zero to 60. Sometimes you need to get to like 10, 20, 30. That's right. Incremental change, for sure. Yeah. So then let's start with the uncomfortable truth then, right? Because I'm sure when you saw, when did you stop seeing patients? Because I know you're doing this so rigorously and you can't, like you wouldn't be here right now if you were seeing patients right now, right? Speaker 2 (17:03) No, I wouldn't be able to. I've recently had to pause. I'm not going to say stop. I'm going to say pause. Speaker 1 (17:09) Okay, I like that. Just because Speaker 2 (17:10) I'm all over the country speaking. And I think one of the most unfortunate things that you can do as a therapist is not give the people in front of you the time they deserve. to get the healing that they seek. Speaker 1 (17:20) Right. Speaker 2 (17:20) And I just, I wasn't available the same way. So I have, I have clients still on a back roster that, you know, I'll see when I can, but for the most part, my practice, I had to pause it. Speaker 1 (17:31) When did that happen? What year? Speaker 2 (17:32) Um, this, this year. This year? Oh yeah. It just Speaker 1 (17:35) happened now. Yeah, it just happened. Oh, Speaker 2 (17:36) okay. Speaker 1 (17:36) Just recently. Okay. So what, so what, how, what's the first step? So someone comes to see you, what do they say? What's the, what's the process? Because. Finding a good therapist is like- Oh my Speaker 2 (17:48) goodness. Speaker 1 (17:49) You think dating Speaker 2 (17:50) is hard. Speaker 1 (17:51) Oh, it's worse. I mean, you can find way more men or women than you can therapists. It's really hard. Yeah, Speaker 2 (17:57) it is. It's very challenging. Why is it so Speaker 1 (17:59) hard? Speaker 2 (18:00) Because being a therapist, it's not like finding a doctor. If I have a pain in my chest and I'm trying to find a cardiologist, I don't give a damn about their bedside, man. It'd make Speaker 1 (18:10) me feel better. You don't have to Speaker 2 (18:12) be the nicest person as long as you're effective. Unless you're really Speaker 1 (18:14) good. Exactly. Because you're good at what you're supposed to do. That's Speaker 2 (18:18) it. That's what matters with therapy. It's different because I am trusting you with something that I probably never told anybody else before. It's tender. It's sensitive. It's time sensitive. And it is the obstacle in between where I am and where I feel like I absolutely have to be to be whole. And personality means a lot when you're in a room with somebody and you're sitting across from them and you're baring your soul. And sometimes you can have a brilliant personality as a therapist. but it could just still be not a good match. Right. So you have to find somebody who's skilled enough, who is your type of personable. You know, they have to be written in a font that you can read. You understand Speaker 1 (18:56) what I'm saying? These days with my reading problem, yeah, it'll be hard. Speaker 2 (19:00) That was a necessary example. But you know what I mean. They have to be able to practice therapy in a way that you not only find palatable, but you find helpful. They have to be a person that you feel like you can trust. They have to be able to build trust. And one of my friends, I talk about this in a book, my homie Frank, who's a therapist too. He said, I don't care how skilled you are in all the therapeutic modalities. You can know motivational interviewing and CPT and CBT and all of these things. If you can't get in a room with. feel your way around the person, you'll never be an effective clinician. So there's just a lot more barriers to being good, being effective and being the right fit than it is for any other service that you'll probably be looking for. Right. And Speaker 1 (19:42) then the, cause I find also like you, I, I would always feel, I never found one by the way, to this day, I swear. Cause I never liked to feel like I'm just another number. And when they're looking over your shoulder to see the clock behind you for your 50-minute time allotment, Speaker 2 (19:59) I'm like, I don't want to Speaker 1 (20:01) have that conversation with them. I don't want to spill my guts out to somebody who I'm just another paycheck to. That Speaker 2 (20:07) makes sense. Speaker 1 (20:08) So then I just, or and or, I don't think they're that smart. So there's a lot of things that go into play. Those are just Speaker 2 (20:15) two factors that you named. Just Speaker 1 (20:16) two. Yeah, just Speaker 2 (20:17) two. What if the person has RBF? And when they're listening to you, they have a face that doesn't feel warm and inviting. Speaker 1 (20:23) They're not going to see me again. Speaker 2 (20:25) And they don't need, they're not even cognizant that their face is like the entire time. Or Speaker 1 (20:29) more for me, if everyone, this is a perfect example. Like I feel for personally, for me, I want to feel like they actually genuinely care. And a lot of times they don't, that you're another, they're waiting to eat their lunch. They're like, okay, this person's out of here. I can then eat my lunch and then I have three more clients and then I can go home. I don't want to feel that way. Speaker 2 (20:47) No, I don't think that's unreasonable. As a therapist, I see both sides because to me, even though it's a highly lauded job, it's just a job to me. Speaker 1 (20:56) Right. It's Speaker 2 (20:56) a job. Speaker 1 (20:57) Exactly. I clock Speaker 2 (20:58) in, I do my job, and I go home. Speaker 1 (20:59) Right. Speaker 2 (21:00) And I think that there is... Speaker 1 (21:02) At least you're Speaker 2 (21:02) honest. Speaker 1 (21:03) Oh, yeah. It doesn't Speaker 2 (21:04) mean I don't care. It doesn't mean I don't empathize. But when we're in that session together, you have all of me. You have all of my attention. I'm not on my phone. I'm not looking at the clock. I hope not. It happens. Really? Oh, yeah. I've heard people who, listen, when you're a therapist, you don't just do your work. You're undoing the work of other therapists who were not effective. So that's one of the first things I ask when people sit in front of me. Have you ever been to therapy before? Yeah. Tell me about it. What did you learn? What did you uncover? What did you stumble upon? And people have horror stories. Speaker 1 (21:34) Their therapist is actually on the phone when they're talking to them? Speaker 2 (21:38) Or like there'll be. We do a lot of virtual now. Sometimes the therapist will have the phone off. Speaker 1 (21:44) Oh, Speaker 2 (21:44) my Speaker 1 (21:44) God. Off the screen. Oh, Speaker 2 (21:46) that's Speaker 1 (21:47) horrible. It Speaker 2 (21:48) is, you know, but, you know, it's a job. And if your kid is in school and a nurse just called and said, hey, I think little Johnny has a concussion. Yeah, you're Speaker 1 (21:57) picking up that. You're going to Speaker 2 (21:58) check your phone. Yeah, Speaker 1 (21:59) yeah, Speaker 2 (21:59) yeah, yeah. You see how the yin and the yang is just. Speaker 1 (22:02) So true. Mm Speaker 2 (22:03) -hmm. Mm-hmm. So Speaker 1 (22:05) I went to see this one therapist. completely on tangent here, like years and years ago, I went to see her a lot, not because we ended up not even talking about like anything important. Like we were just like shooting the shit because she liked me and I liked her. So we just became very friendly, but she didn't help me at all. Like I got nothing out of that whole situation at all. And then you don't want to tell the person stuff because you don't want them to judge you. Which is Speaker 2 (22:28) another barrier. Yeah. Right? I think that Speaker 1 (22:30) happens all the time. Speaker 2 (22:31) Oh, absolutely. Sometimes people come in and I can tell that you're lying to me or I can tell that you're withholding the entire truth. Yeah. Yeah. So this is what I say. Like, hey, at any point during our sessions, if you feel like the truth is a little bit too much to bear in the moment, you can always come back and say, hey, remember the other day when we were talking about that thing? Yeah, that's not really what happened. Let me explain it to you now. I will not judge you. And you will not be penalized for it. The only thing that it will do is allow me to better help you. And that frees people. It doesn't stop you from lying to me. Speaker 1 (23:01) Yeah, no. But Speaker 2 (23:01) it gives you a little bit more latitude to think about the way that you lied and come back with the truth that's going to allow us to sit together and co-problem solve. Speaker 1 (23:12) Yeah, I love that. The issue, other issue, I mean, I didn't think we're going to be talking about this, but why not, right? The fact is that... Therapy has become so expensive for most people. Oh, yeah. So I think it's very unfair because mental health is a real thing, especially now more than ever with social media and all the other things happening. The prices are so extraordinary, especially in L.A. I don't know how much they are in D.C., but it's so extraordinarily expensive and all the good therapists aren't on insurance. Speaker 2 (23:43) Yeah, insurance is a nightmare to deal with as a therapist. It's Speaker 1 (23:45) a Speaker 2 (23:45) nightmare to deal Speaker 1 (23:46) with. Speaker 2 (23:46) It's a nightmare to deal with. Speaker 1 (23:47) So what are people supposed to do? Right? Good Speaker 2 (23:50) question. Speaker 1 (23:51) Yeah. What are people supposed to do? I'm being totally serious. It Speaker 2 (23:55) would be Speaker 1 (23:55) nice if Speaker 2 (23:55) we had universal health care or something like that. Speaker 1 (23:57) Yeah. Speaker 2 (23:57) AI. Speaker 1 (23:58) People are using Claude and ChatGPT to talk through their problems. That's what I do. Speaker 2 (24:04) Yeah. And I understand the impulse to do that. Yeah. Speaker 1 (24:10) I Speaker 2 (24:10) don't vilify the impulse to do that. But you have to be very careful because chat GPT, while it can give you some really good insight, it's kind of programmed to kiss your ass a little bit. Speaker 1 (24:23) Not if you say to it, be brutally honest. If you prompt it properly, I know. No, Speaker 2 (24:30) that's true. My biggest problem with AI when it comes to therapy and just therapeutic services is the pausing and the reflecting. Sometimes feels a profound need to fill space with words when sometimes silence is medicine. If I see you begin to cry, I will pause and I will allow that silence to be another person in the room because there's so much we can learn from just sitting in silence together. ChatGPT ain't going to do that. ChatGPT is going to say, hmm, Speaker 1 (25:01) I Speaker 2 (25:01) see. Well, sometimes crying is an emotion, you know, and begin to not feel because these systems don't feel. It begins to process and not process in a way that we process our feelings, but process in a way that takes ideas and puts them in a way that that's very understandable for you. So I think that AI can be a brilliant. a companion when it comes to journaling. I think it's brilliant to bounce ideas off of. But if and when it replaces your therapist, which is another human and another human interaction touchpoint, I think we lose something really special that's a part of the therapeutic alliance. It's not just the questions I ask you or the training that I have. It's also the human-to-human connection that we miss. Speaker 1 (25:53) But when we don't have any other options, right? Like, yeah, if you're in a very certain socioeconomic place, like L.A. is like just full of a ton of rich people, right? It's very Speaker 2 (26:04) odd how many rich people live here. L.A. and Dallas, the wealth is kind of obscene. It's Speaker 1 (26:08) absurd. And so there's like, it's like a pseudo reality, right? People are going to see a therapist twice a week. It's like they talk about it like they're going to Starbucks. I'm doing my Pilates and I'm going to my therapy. Then I'm doing this. I'm doing that. It's like not real life. Right. Yeah. Speaker 2 (26:23) And Speaker 1 (26:23) at like four hundred, five hundred dollars a pop every time. Yes. So and because people know they can get it here, the therapists, they keep on raising the prices. So that's what I'm saying. I think there's a lot of people who actually do need therapy who are not receiving it because they can't afford it. Speaker 2 (26:41) You know what I would love to see? Therapy is also, it's hard for therapists because we're licensed specifically to the state. Like if you say, Kira, I love you as a therapist, I would love to hire you. You can't because you don't live in D.C. Speaker 1 (26:54) Why? On Zoom I could do it. Speaker 2 (26:56) Not supposed to. Speaker 1 (26:57) Really? Yeah. You know that most of my friends who are in L.A., they have therapists, they don't live in L.A. anymore. They live in Utah. They're cheaper. They live in New York. Some of them live in, they live in New Jersey. They live in Michigan. Cause like, it's just, that's what they're doing. And they're doing zooms. Speaker 2 (27:14) And Speaker 1 (27:14) who's going to stop you? Speaker 2 (27:16) Yeah, I think the mental Speaker 1 (27:17) health police going to knock on your door. No, Speaker 2 (27:20) mental health police won't knock on your door, I assure you. But I think it does speak to how challenging licensing can be. I think that it needs to be challenging in a way that unqualified people shouldn't be able to get licenses. But when qualified people are unable to meet the needs of a population that is clamoring for the help, I think that that. brings the entire system into question. You should be able to see anybody who's qualified and who serves a population that deals with the things that you deal with. Speaker 1 (27:53) 100%. Now, let me ask you a question back to this. Like, why do you think, or what do you think has kind of, besides social media, or what part of social media has sprung on? I feel like mental health in general, anxiety, depression, all the isolation, loneliness is at an all time high. Oh, yeah. Right. Why do you think this is beyond just Instagram? Speaker 2 (28:20) It's well, I know that there's data to support it. We don't even have to guess. But one of the things that stick out sticks out most to me, you kind of mentioned it already, is that we don't have third spaces as much as we used to where we gather in person. We communicate. Me and you texting each other. Are we communicating? Like, yeah. But it's not the same as if we're at a coffee shop face to face and we're catching up. And I think that the human to human connection is something that we just this type of mammal that we are. We need desperately. And we've replaced that with convenience. Yeah. Speaker 1 (28:55) Everything we've replaced. We don't even go to eat. We just postmated or door dash it. If we all know this to be true, right? Because that's Speaker 2 (29:04) what Speaker 1 (29:04) we're, everyone's seeing it as a real hard truth, right? People aren't socializing. They're not dating anymore. Do you see that people aren't dating? And people are so lonely, but the next step is to change it. Are people changing it or are they still stagnant and not do anything about it? I Speaker 2 (29:22) think it's a little bit of both. I just read something that said Gen Z is starting to go back to flip phones and not be on social media as much. I think that at some point it will change, but it's bright and shiny. You got to realize your cell phone isn't just a cell phone. It's a military grade weapon against your brain, your neurochemistry. It's designed specifically to feel a certain way in your hand. The glass is smooth and gives you a certain response. It feels good when you go on Instagram and the algorithm finds things that you like and it force feeds it to you. It's the brain does not like to be inconvenienced at all. The brain will find the shortest path between point A and point B. I got the entire world in my hand. Why on earth would I go anywhere else? My friends and I, we notice all of us live in different places across the country, but we'll hop on a PlayStation and we'll talk while we play the game where we used to just meet and be outside and talk in a parking lot for hours. Are we still getting the touch points where we get to talk to each other? Yes, of course. But it is not the same. And you, if convenience is right there to grab, you know, I'd much rather just grab some fast food on the way home. Actually, I pose this as Speaker 1 (30:36) a Speaker 2 (30:36) question. What do you think? is even though, take the health aside, we know what it does to your health. What are you going to do? Are you going to go grab some fast food on the way home? Are you going to go to your garden? Are you going to pick the stuff that you, are you going to pick the peppers and pick the onions and pick the tomatoes? Then are you going to get the dough and you're going to make the dough and then you're going to send it through the processor to make noodles and then are you going to cook your spaghetti that way? Are you going to go butcher the cow and grind the beef? Speaker 1 (31:00) No, but I will, I will say this. I won't do that. But what I will do is I don't, I'm a, I don't have any of those apps on my phone. I don't have a Postmate, Uber Eats, all those things. I refuse. Or those Instacarts. If I want to buy groceries, I go to the grocery store. If I want to eat something, I'll go to the grocery store or I'll go to a restaurant. I don't order in food on purpose because it's a slippery slope. Everything is a gateway drug to something else. You start with weed and then you end up... you know, basically on heroin three years later, you know what