Hollie McNish
Griefcast
In this episode of Griefcast, host Cariad Lloyd interviews poet Hollie McNish to discuss the loss of her grandmother, Isabel, during the fir
Key takeaways
- Hollie's grandmother, known as 'Gaga,' passed away at age 96 during the COVID-19 lockdown.
- The hosts discuss the concept that there is no hierarchy of grief; a 'good death' at an old age does not diminish the pain of loss.
Main topics
- Grief and loss
- Lockdown and Zoom funerals
Notable quotes
Your grief is your grief. Like, if you feel it, you feel it.
Conclusion
A poignant exploration of how we carry the memory of those we have los
Transcript preview
Speaker 2 (0:00) Love this podcast? Support this show through the Acast Supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give and there's no regular commitment. Just hit the link in the show description to support now. You're listening to Griefcast with me, Cariad Lloyd. Griefcast is a place to talk, share and laugh about the peculiar human process of death and grief. Each week I talk to a different person about their experiences of grief and death as we remember someone that they have lost along the way. Whether it was a long time ago or you've just joined the club. Welcome to Griefcast. Speaker 2 (0:54) Hey Greestars, I hope you're having an okay week. A little bit of news, this is the last episode of this series. I'm going to have a break. I don't know when I'm coming back. So normally I think, I don't normally do shows in January and I normally have January off and then we start with this sort of spring season and we have a break and summer and we come back and the book obviously is now out and that was... quite a huge thing it's quite a huge part of me that book and I really wanted to do some episodes in January to make it we don't normally do that I say we I don't normally do that um but I knew that I probably couldn't cope once the book came out with recording episodes as well so I'm gonna have a little break because I know we're all griefsters I'm not gonna say this is the end um but I'm just gonna say you know of Ra for a bit. I love doing this show so much and I love this community so so much but I definitely with the book now being out yeah I just it's hard to record them as well as talking about my dad all the time. So I hope that's okay. I hope you know how much I appreciate everybody who listens and has made this show what it is and provided the community of people that it is. I really am so, so grateful. So for everyone who's listened this entire time since 2016, all the way back with our first episode, talking to Adam Buxton about his dad. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for making this what I do. Speaker 2 (2:39) I hope you're okay. I hope today's an okay one. Before we go, we have one last guest. And I'm so, so chuffed that she is the last guest of this season because she's amazing. It's the fantastic writer and poet Holly McNish. Holly is Sunday Times bestselling author of Slug and Other Things I've Been Told to Hate, as well as her brilliant parenting memoir, Nobody Told Me. She also won the Ted Hughes Award for New Work in Poetry. She's just one of those people that... If you follow her on social media, you're just glad she exists. She's a brilliant poet. What she talks about has not been talked about before. The way she talks about it is really honest and refreshing and just clear-sighted. And I'm so glad that I finally got to talk to her. We've been trying to arrange this chat for a while. And it was just a joy, a real joy. So here is Holly. Speaker 2 (3:41) So, Holly, who are we remembering today? Speaker 1 (3:44) Today, I'm remembering my gran. So, specifically, my mum's mum, who died in the first lockdown period. So, it was like a weird, that kind of online funeral death. And she was 96, so... Speaker 1 (4:05) Yeah, we're remembering her, my gran. I was very close to her, loved her, like a lot of people are, a lot of people they lose. Speaker 2 (4:11) What was her name? We always like to say the name. Speaker 1 (4:14) Oh, her name was Isabel. Isabel. That's funny, isn't it? Because her name was Gran. Gran. And was she a gran, not a grandma or a granny? She was Speaker 2 (4:22) gran. Speaker 1 (4:23) Actually, she was Speaker 2 (4:24) a gaga. So I don't know if Speaker 1 (4:28) that's like common in other families apparently not. I was told it was a Scottish name but my mum and dad are both Scottish and everything that I questioned they were like oh it's a Scottish thing. Speaker 1 (4:40) Like lots of things, like my dad's omelette that had like burgers and chips in the omelette was a Scottish omelette. It discovered like, that's not Scottish, that's just our family. Speaker 2 (4:50) You just, you want a burger and chips in your omelette, which is totally fine. But don't blame the entire nation Speaker 1 (4:54) for this, what's happening on your plate. Now I've heard Speaker 2 (4:58) gaga before. Gaga normally is when a child can't say grandma and then it becomes... gaga and then it sticks that's what I've always heard if it sort of becomes like oh that's what we call that person but actually it was a child couldn't say grandma or gran yeah Speaker 1 (5:13) that makes sense my dad said it was once that um it was one of our first words and so my gran wanted to take like act like her name was our first word but actually it was that our first word was her name I think he I think he was having a bit of a dig hang on isabel's a very beautiful Speaker 2 (5:32) name Speaker 1 (5:33) very beautiful and Speaker 2 (5:34) she was she was 96 so wow that is a right age not that that makes you know you can still grieve for people who are old that's very common um but you know good for her that she had a nice long life in that way yeah it was great was she in a home by the end or where was she no Speaker 1 (5:53) so i guess that's sort of why i wanted to talk to her not she was she's also the the closest person that i've I've been to that's died, which is very lucky in my life. But I found it quite weird because it was, as my mum always says, it was like a very good death. And my mum's a nurse and she's seen a lot of death and she was just, she kept sort of saying to me, you know, it was amazing, it was such a good death. And I was like bluffing, you know, I'm not really used to it, as my mum is. But she was at home and she was... She wasn't fine, obviously. She was sort of in hospital a bit and out. But she was, you know, she was chatting even on the day that she died and just... went to the loo and then sort of sat up in bed and died. Wow. Speaker 2 (6:46) Yeah, it Speaker 1 (6:48) was quite like my mum, and it was obviously in a comforting way, but was saying it. So I find it is quite odd when you're like heavily grieving someone, but you know like it was a good death. They've had a long life. So there's not... It's not that there's so much sympathy and maybe there shouldn't be as much. Obviously, there's horrendous death and grief that people go through. But it was just quite funny. And it's funny that you said that because as soon as you sort of say the age, it's like a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, fair enough. It's nothing. But I guess both my grandmas I was really close to and one of them died at 94 years ago and the other one at 96. But my grandmother died at 94. She was like so ready to die and used to talk to me about how sort of boring old age was and how she was ready. She started eating cheese because like she was so healthy. She just ate, you know, she like made soup every day for food basically. Speaker 1 (7:48) And the doctor told her cheese was bad for her, so she immediately cut out cheese. But then when she started to think she was ready, she started eating cheeses, if that was really bad. Speaker 2 (7:58) I'm afraid to tell you, there are Speaker 1 (7:59) a few things above cheese. Yeah, I know, right? Speaker 2 (8:03) Smoking, Speaker 1 (8:03) drinking, no, Speaker 2 (8:04) no, start Speaker 1 (8:04) with cheese, go easy, build Speaker 2 (8:06) up to it. Could have come up with some Speaker 1 (8:07) more fun stuff, I guess. But yeah, my gaga was not ready. I think that's why I found it so sad. Because she had, like, a very long life. But a lot of it was during times where, like, women couldn't do quite as much as she would have wanted. Yeah, yeah. And she, to be honest, like, she was amazing. She was the first person in my family to go to uni. She came from a really poor background and loads of stuff. And then got pregnant just as she left. So didn't really go into the life, I guess, that she was definitely thinking. Had three kids. Went into teaching. And then she only ever... went abroad when she was like 75 after my granddad died because he was yeah so so she sort of she had this long long life but as a lot of women in particular a lot of caring in it Speaker 2 (8:55) yeah and Speaker 1 (8:56) then was kind of independent i guess in her 70s and had loads of other places she wanted to go but by the time she wanted to do it she was she was mobile but not mobile enough to you know Speaker 2 (9:06) go Speaker 1 (9:07) on like a world tour world tour or whatever so yes It's interesting and it's sort of sad, but I know that she had a longer life than most people on the planet. Speaker 2 (9:17) Yeah, I think it's really interesting because what you're talking about, we say on the show, there's no hierarchy of grief. And I do believe that grief is grief. Obviously, there's situations where you're like, well, yeah, that compared to that is easier. But even saying that, I think it can... What's important, I suppose, is, and I say this a lot, your grief is your grief. Like, if you feel it, you feel it. And it doesn't, it's like sadness, isn't it? Or depression or anxiety. Like, it's no good someone saying, oh, but look what you've got. It doesn't make that feeling go away. And it just makes you feel worse because you're like, I shouldn't feel this because they had a good death. It's just like, I think the things around their age and their death, like the context of someone's death can be helpful sometimes in grief. to give you a moment of like okay you know they were 21 when they died gosh that's that's making me feel even more worse or they were 90 when they died okay i have that to hold on to like they were old and that's something that's good but the grief is still there like Do you Speaker 1 (10:23) think Speaker 2 (10:23) that makes sense? Like the context of it, you can always look at it, you can visit it and be like, oh, the context is interesting. Here's the context. But that doesn't stop how you feel. And as you said, if she were very close to her and she's the first person you've really, you know, you know, experienced that grief and that death, then of course you're grieving. I think that's like normal. But I think people really love to minimize other people's grief. They really love it. It Speaker 1 (10:46) makes them feel better, you know? So if they can say to you, if they say to you, oh God, oh no, you're so Speaker 2 (10:52) sad. Oh, how old was she? 96. Ding. Okay. Speaker 1 (10:55) Don't Speaker 2 (10:55) need Speaker 1 (10:55) to feel that bad. Oh, she had a good day. Ding. Oh, I Speaker 2 (10:57) really don't need to feel that bad. And you were close to her and you got on and she knew that you loved you. Ding, ding, ding. Oh great. And it's like, we're looking in our internal sympathy box and we're like, oh, okay. How much does Holly need? Not that much, but that's bullshit. Like if you feel sad, you feel sad. You do. But also. In a way, I don't need Speaker 1 (11:15) that. Like, I don't need that much. In Speaker 2 (11:16) that way, Speaker 1 (11:17) it is, you know, if there were other people I lost, I would need more help. Like, I didn't feel like I needed Speaker 2 (11:23) people around Speaker 1 (11:25) me so much. But it doesn't make it less, you know, less sad that you are missing this person who lost their husband. But, yeah, I definitely, I guess, had my own box in that way that was like, no, it's okay. Like, that's a nice third one as well because I think that was the one that... selfishly was the thing I spoke about most when I was sort of talking about it in like poems and writing because I wrote quite a lot about my grandparents and just the fact that if you know that it's like this surety that you've told someone that you love them. Speaker 2 (12:00) And Speaker 1 (12:00) then I guess a lot of people in grief lost a close friend and my partner was saying, right, that's it, there's no chance I'm not telling any of my male friends that I love them because it's not like a guy thing to do. But fuck this basically, no longer will I hold feelings back because this is just too much. So I guess it still sparked that. But from a positive point of view, I Speaker 2 (12:25) was Speaker 1 (12:25) like, right, I told my gran I loved her so much. And you think, right, let me just do that to everyone else that I know on this planet now. Speaker 2 (12:35) Yeah, definitely. And that's the thing about grief is it, you know, whether someone is 96 and has a good day, it still makes you feel all those feelings that we all feel with grief of like, oh, fuck, people can die. They can die. I need to say these things. And, you know, obviously having done lots of conversations about grief, it doesn't make it, you know, it does make it easier. It makes it easier to face your grief if you knew that they loved you and you said you loved them. Like it definitely adds an ease to it. It doesn't mean you're walking on air and you're like, oh, I'm fine. They knew I loved them. But it definitely helps. It definitely helps. Speaker 1 (13:08) Yeah, I think so. I Speaker 2 (13:09) think the Speaker 1 (13:10) worst Speaker 2 (13:10) thing about it was Speaker 1 (13:11) being a mum Speaker 2 (13:12) and telling Speaker 1 (13:13) my kid. Oh, yeah. Like that, that. was really odd because all the other people that died I've just gone through it by myself really which is fine I'm not such a well like a lot of people not in a way that I don't like I'm very open to like crying in front of people and talking but just it's not really something that I feel like I do communally that well or not well that I that I really want to I like doing my own little rituals that I just make up and act like they're spiritual but um I think, yeah, telling my daughter has been the worst. I've had to tell her that two people in our family have died since she's been alive, and she was really, like, really close. And it was her great-grandma. So that's even weirder, because when she said that to people and my great-grandma died, it's like, oh, you Speaker 2 (14:03) know, everyone expects that Speaker 1 (14:04) to be somebody that you maybe haven't even been able to talk to or has been in a, I don't know, not a state of knowing them. And the fact that they were... They were so close. That was awful because I thought, oh, I didn't have to go through this at your age. I didn't have great-grandparents, but you've got four great-grandmas because basically everyone in our family had kids before we were apparently meant to. So she's got some very young great-grandmas as well. So I think that, just sitting in the morning and thinking... I've got to go in and, like, ruin my kid's day. And I have no idea how... Like, she was, like, nine. Wow. So really, really aware of it. It's not something that, you know, it's not like she'll forget it. Speaker 2 (14:47) Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (14:48) That was the worst. That was, yeah, much worse than my own grief, I think, just having to break news to a kid. And I imagine there must be... bloody awful, like, that just can't imagine if it's someone even closer to them. Speaker 2 (15:02) How, like, how was it? What did you say to her? Did you just go for the straight up, Speaker 1 (15:07) she's died, like? Yeah, I was trying to, like, I'm not really one for all the passed away, gone to the stars or whatever, I just, I don't mind the word. Well, I do mind the word that I absolutely have not come to terms with the fact that I'm going to die despite having sat with people who are dying quite often. Not quite often, like a few times with grandparents mainly. But yeah, I just went in and sat down. It was... In lockdown, but we had gone and seen her, like when there was like a little break in the lockdown and a few people, having with my grandad as well, a few people said, oh, do you really think you should drive up? But what if all the, you know, motorways are closed or whatever? So we'd driven up. not fairly recently but a couple of months before there had to quite a lot of criticism in the family and now I'm just very pleased that we did that but I went in and she we made like dens all during lockdown so she had like a different den in her bedroom every month Speaker 2 (16:12) yeah Speaker 1 (16:12) um or every week maybe so it was like this bright sunshiny day with this massive like I just remember all these like flowers up and like fake flowers and big sheets up and she was like waking up in the dark oh god But I just said, I think I just sat down and said... I've got something bad to tell you, I'm really sorry, or bad, maybe