can sex work be spiritual? a convo about neo-tantra [w/ Sarah]

GRACEPILLED with Hanna Williams - Hanna Williams

Hanna Williams explores Neo-Tantra with sex worker and practitioner Sarah, examining spirituality in intimacy, healing, and personal transformation through playful, curious dialogue.

Key takeaways

• Sex work can be a spiritual path when rooted in consent and self-awareness.

Transcript preview

Welcome to Grace Pilled, a podcast about the spiritual process and the mysterious forces shaping your life. My name is Hana and since 2015 I have been a practitioner in a classical Shakta Tintrick Tradition which informs literally every aspect of my life including the things that I like to talk about. I work with people to recognize the deeply spiritual patterns that are shaping their life so that they can start moving with those patterns. instead of against them. This show is that whole conversation out loud again and again and again. You can work with me through my website, H-A-N-N-A- Williams. Or join my Patreon for deeper teachings and ongoing Q&A-S-N-A-Williams, and ongoing Q&A sessions, also a community discord server. I also have a 100% free human design resource on my website if you want to start your human design experiment. But for now, let's get into the episode. So before we jump in, I just want to offer a little bit of context for this conversation. Today's episode explores Neo Tuntra through a conversation with somebody who has worked professionally in that world. And this entire discussion is not meant to be a definitive statement about Tuntra, sex work, or sexuality. Nor is it an endorsement, or a critique of any particular path. All this is is an investigation. And the reason why I'm saying this is because these subjects exist at the intersection of spirituality, sexuality, power, healing, commerce, and deep, often painful histories. And all of those things I just named are deeply personal subjects. And for many people, they're also connected to experience. of violence and coercion and exploitation or profound healing, which is something that we're going to be mostly talking about. And so it makes complete sense that conversations like this, what we're speaking of, things about sex work, bring up really strong feelings in people. And my hope is simply that we can just be curious together. I think it's possible to explore ideas without immediately deciding. whether they belong entirely in the good or bad category. Let's just call that a tantric practice. Curiosity to me is not the same thing as agreement. I can be curious about something and not agree with it. And I'm not even saying anything about the conversation with me and Sarah. That's just the way that I experience reality. Sometimes curiosity is just the willingness to understand how another human being experiences the world. And I just need to stand up on my pedestal about that for a little bit because that's a principle that I live by. And so then I end up in conversations like this, where throughout this conversation, Sarah and I are exploring where neotentra overlaps with and diverges from what I understand as classical tantra, the tradition that I've been in for over a decade. And we're going to talk about sex work. We're going to talk about intimacy. We're going to talk about cis men and the beliefs that have shifted for Sarah about what men are through doing this work. And we're going to talk about the breadth of spiritual practice and how deep or surface level that can get. We're going to talk about the transformation of consciousness and how that's the bottom line of spirituality and the ways that people search for God through very unexpected avenues. And I don't expect everybody listening to agree with every perspective that's shared here. And I don't actually think that's the point. The point is to investigate honestly and ask good questions and see what there is to learn. I was born to learn something. Were you? And to keep it so for real with you guys so that I don't make this seem so fucking serious right out the gate, we are laughing this entire conversation. This conversation was so much fun and so funny. And one of the working titles of this episode is How to Blow A Load inside of the Meat Grinder. So this is a good time. And this is my opportunity to say if you got kids around, maybe not for this episode. Very not. safe for work. Let's get into it. Hi Sarah, welcome to Grace Pilled. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to have a really tough and mean conversation about Neotentra versus Classical Tenter. We're going to become enemies today, right? Yeah, it's going to be like a UFC match of the century. Like, I'm so ready to be so vicious and mad about this. can we're yeah so what's gonna happen today is that I invited Sarah May on because we were actually working together because you approached me about learning more about classical tantra after having lived experience and working experience in what we're gonna call like the neo-Tantra field and so I got this idea where I was like I just think it would be really interesting for us to have a conversation about the similarities and differences in like a light-hearted curious way. This isn't actually going to be philosophical USC. It's going to be a secret third thing of like what happens when we just talk about the spark of creation that's threaded between these two things actually, which is the thing that is trying to pull us home anyway. We're going to get to that later probably. But the way I want to start the Convo is is just like investigating you and who you are and how you kind of ended up in the role that you're in, the work that you do, and just what we're going to call this kind of like Neotontric field. For lack of a better word, that's what we're going to call it. That's what we're going to call it. That's what we're going to call it. Yeah, I mean, I have, my lived experience is I was informed of Neotantra or like erotic intimacy and ecstasy and ecstasy. it in a context of sex work and within a interdependent kind of dynamic where you need another person in order to do it. And I didn't understand necessarily the more classical aspects of it being like a religious and or foundational element of religious practices or a philosophical idea in and of itself. But me as a, as a religious, a, human person. I came out the womb a very sexually adventurous person. I don't know what what came out from another lifetime but I out the gate like learned how to masturbate when I was three my parents for all the whoopsie doodles that they did as parents. One thing that I'm really happy for is they were super open-minded in the parameters of being a curious kid and they never told me anything like that was wrong. I was very like my father used to paint nude women I would go paint them with him like the body was always kind of truly just a vessel of creativity and it wasn't objectified it was kind of just appreciated so I think having that influence and having that kind of primed from such a young age like I'd learned what sex was I was that kid on the playground who told everyone what it was it in kindergarten I you know I was kind of baby liberator I guess I don't know which is a ridiculous thing to say but like I I I I think we all had a friend like that I was the friend yeah so you were that friend I had a friend like that I just feel like everybody had a friend like that so so that was me that was that was little little maimay on the streets but I so I kind of just was always a curious kid unfortunately going into puberty I hit that late so I was watching all of my friends kind of get to do the things that I wanted to do was being a teenager in the early 2000s you know I definitely didn't have the same information that a lot of women do now of of worth in time and energy and where to put it so yeah we we fell into some curious things but at the end of the day my openness never really like got quelled like I definitely always was still sexuality was something that I just always was still was so exploratory and interested in. I feel like I was in non-monogamous relationships before I knew what that meant or at least that I knew that for myself. And it wasn't until like later on in my late 20s that I went to school, I went back to school and got my masters in acupuncture and herbal medicine. And that was a big 180 from where I was at in my life at that point. I was doing photography. I was also dating someone. who wasn't worthy of my time. I don't know. I was living in Bushwick. I was on which for anyone that doesn't know is a place in Brooklyn where dreams go to die and at least mine but for all good reasons because I ended up going into this place that I never looked back. I had such I so I've been almost 10 years including school have been a licensed acupuncturist in New York which that foundation kind of informed the rest of the rest of the rest. of my metaphysical and esoteric journey. Can I pause you for a sec? Yeah. So what I've heard so far is sex almost like thematically has been huge for you like your whole life and like even with like all the ups and downs of like growing up and making mistakes and da da da, like that still was like a really big theme for you. And then you're living in Bushwick and you decide to become an acupuncturable. Did something happen? Like did you get like an inspiration? Did you hear about what how did that happen? It was actually a moment where I realized that I was kind of just going to the same bars doing the same drugs Interfeir in interacting with the same kind of people that were starting to just kind of feel like an intellectual circle jerk of like artistry that I just wasn't really interested in and I just felt like my ego being so present in all the things that I had to, like ego derogatory, not ego complimentary, like the ego that was like, this is what you said you do, you went to school for this, you should do this, like you should be an artist, you should do all these things and the more I would do that, the more I was like this just is not fitting anything and it doesn't make sense. I also grew up in Woodstock New York which is a very hippy like silly town and I knew and I knew something, and I knew something I knew I was like experimental I knew I liked helping healing people I knew I liked learning about the body and in my photography like that was kind of a lot of the themes as well and and my nana actually my grandmother heard I was sitting and she's also a person that I that did Transcendental meditation and she did Reiki like she's just a little badass and someone I've always looked up to for those things and she was like if you could do anything like don't limit yourself what would you do and I was like I go back to school for medicine I don't know what that means and I and I just it was like it was like it was truly like a call to action that felt very intuitive it had no like it had a little bit of logic but when I remember when I told my friends they were like what the fuck are you doing dude like that meant you're gonna go back to school you're gonna be in debt you're gonna be miserable like what are you're the divine like intervention and it just felt like I just was told to do this and I did it and but people who knew you were really surprised yeah yeah and I suppose I was a little bit of fodder to like do it even better and like study a little bit harder which like we love we love a little bit of a prove them wrong I definitely was still in a proven wrong moment in my life so yeah I wait but you're saying you kind of moved away from like trying to do a more artistically driven thing to doing something that felt like a 180 and going down the route of medicine. Yeah, which I didn't realize like going into studying acupuncture that I would also have to heal myself in the process. Like it was a very humbling like, oh damn. Yeah, it was a very humbling experience to be like, oh, I drink a lot like I do a lot of drugs. I am not applying. I I chain smoke cigarettes like what am I you know it was like this mower. I can't just like. study these things I have to become them and I think it was also a very real moment where I was like these are things that aren't just to like feed my wallet or my ego or like my like the things that I thought I had to be it was like no I was like do you want to feel like as whole as possible and it was also my first introduction to like Eastern philosophy because you learn like the Eiching you learn like Tai Chi Chi-Gang like you do all the things in order to understand why this medicine is has a lasting art. It's like context building. Yeah. And from there I started, you know, I started my practice, I started doing things. I still felt, you know, a lot of life happened in between then. And I started kind of trying to find my way up in like what I was going to do and I still kind of felt like I wasn't making a lot of money. I wasn't really, I was still kind of, I wasn't making a lot of money. I wasn't really, I was still kind of, I was still kind of, I was still kind of, I was still kind of, I was still kind of, I was still kind of, in a I don't really know what's next but it's not this and one of my best friends who has done Neotantra for over 10 years at this point she would always like come in and because she was living this like fabulous lifestyle just like fluttering around the world and I'd be like what are you doing and she's like I give men ham jobs and I'm like that's crazy what do you mean and you know she used other language but I was always as person that whenever I hear people that's the coolest fucking thing ever. Like I remember being 16 and like wanting to be a strip. Like I wanted to be a stripper. I'm just too sleepy and I have hyper mobility so like it's not really in the cards for me. And I got to this place where like she, it was this kind of really chismet moment four years ago where she called me the day I found out I wasn't getting a raise at this place that I was doing. You were doing acupuncture at this place. Yeah. Yeah. With you. she called me out of the blue and was like hey I fell in love I don't want to do this work anymore do you want me to train you in it and I was like literally the day I found out I wasn't gonna get a raise and I was like yeah I was like that's fucking right like I'm listening I'm listening and like that's that moment and like that's really getting chills out my back thinking about like it's just my life has changed I'm like I feel like I'm so grateful I'm so grateful I'm so grateful time that I was because I don't think I would have handled it as well. I don't think I would have seen the success I saw. I don't think I would have changed the things that I changed about myself in order to be where I am. Yeah, I just hit the ground running and I felt like it was the greatest decision I ever made. It's opened so many doors for me, including the one where I learned about the fact that Neotantra is not Tontra. Yeah, totally. I wouldn't have had the money to talk to you right now like 100% when we worked together like it's just is funny that that's kind of just that it gets it's that itself you know yeah well so my curiosity is like she calls you and she's like I want to train you in this work are you able to speak to like what happened in that space like what did she train you in? Yeah so a lot of it she was like a huge component of being a I will stay a tantric sex worker for this because that's just how it's advertised, it's how people know it. She was like you already have this history, you have a master's in touching people, like that's usually the hardest thing to teach people is like informed touch. Interesting. Yeah, like a part for anyone that doesn't know like a part of Chinese medicine and acupuncture is pulse taking like it's diagnostics based off of energy. It's whole, it's seeing better with with your hands and like I mean all the senses honestly because smell is a huge every single sense is a component of diagnosis but to have that already under as an undercurrent for me was like something that would have taken years to kind of hone in so she was like I'm really confident in that part for you I was like cool and so you'd have Yeah, it was unknown to you. Like you didn't realize that you had done all that work. That's interesting. Yeah, and and she was like you're already like one of the most sexually expressive and adventurous people I have in my life. Like I think that part is also a huge deterrent for people is like, you know, it's like it's the classic. Oh, I could never like that. Like, I'm like, well, you don't have to but like. We apparently live in a free country. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry about it. So like that part of you being open to different types of people and non-judgmental and like being in space with people that maybe you're not attracted to or maybe you are. It's like having that like kind of informed reality is also something that would take a while on top of the fact that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so she was like so those things were kind of things that we would discuss and what she taught me was a how to be safe in the work because that's also just another element that's but really fun is like learning how to take care like learning boundaries learning how to tell a safe person from an unsafe person where to work how to work what like sites are the best to use and and how to she knew a lay of the land yeah lay of the land was a huge component and also teaching certain pillars that it's interesting because it's like I think I subconsciously just like had downloads of like Shrek Teton Tchric ways like we've talked about this but like the styles with which I approached my sessions with my clients was like already kind of that but it wasn't because I learned it but the things that so for every like Tontrika Dakini you know there's so many words for them but like the Magdalene manuscript is a book that's like Bible to the girlies and that was the first thing I was the first thing I was the first thing I read What it is is it's like I love it it's just a really colorful like download of someone being like okay Mary and Bagnolin actually taught Jesus magic and it was sex magic and this is these are the meditations that you can do to activate it these are the things that you can do to bring it forward it also goes through Egyptian Buddhist East Asian like it goes through every like neotontric application of what that looks like and all of it is this and the thing that is the funny thing is like what it is it's a connection to God like that's what it is it's having this alchemical process of being being interconnected to connect to something bigger than yourself. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying that like so the Magdalene manuscript it goes through a lot of shit and then it also crosses like a lot of different traditions and tries to bridge the gap together but the thing that you're saying is that like the thread underneath everything is that the practices themselves ultimately are about connecting to God. Is that kind of like what you're saying? It's what I've inferred, absolutely. It's like the like when they go through like what an ancient Egyptian Tontric practice would be. It's like charging your physical body with your soul body in order to generate enough gee or life force to then like go up into the ether to like meet your like, the ethereal self with another person and like essentially like fuck like God. So it's almost like is it is there almost kind of like a theme of like gathering Prana in the body to kind of force certain states of consciousness? Exactly. Does that make sense? And they used a different word for it. It's con cod body I believe and that's that's the language that they use. Exactly. It's just another phrasing. kind of the same outcome. Something that's coming up for me so far in this discussion because you were just saying ancient Egyptian tantric practice and I think a religious scholar would have a stroke just like dealing with that sentence but no no no but the thing that's coming up for me is so I've spent a lot of time with Sufism which is a form of mystical Islam and something that I picked up on over the last like 10 years is that it almost there's this thing where it's like you Sufism isn't really a religion and it's also a thing where it's like there's no Sufi mosques it's like in people's backyards that they meet up historically and you can be like a Sufi Christian or you could be like a Sufi Taoist or something and so like there's this thing where it's like you can have like a Sufi twist on an existing tradition and I think the thing that has happened with Tantra is that there is a tantric twist that can go on to something else that is speaking that's speaking to something that's real. But the thing that gets confusing historically is like is that the classical Tantra thing for real ziz or is there a whole other thing that's happening that might just be mysticism period? Like it might just be mysticism. I know I totally agree and I kind of was like laughing in my head when I said it out loud because I was like not questioning a single thing I was like just absorb it like it is just the gospel like just like read through you know obviously you get gained more discernment as you start practicing things for sure like wait a minute but I think it's also goes without setting it's something you and I have talked about a lot is like the inherent and like unavoidable intersectionality that has created the I would without a better work Westernized approach to all of the adaptations. It's like, and even acupuncture is the same way where it's like we only know so much based off of like the people redefining it and putting it in English. It's the same shit. It's like you kind of just have to like, it's like you can pick certain things to believe and like hold in your heart that's the right thing and that's all I mean at the other day it's all you really can do, but like, all of those explanations. reasons that Tontra and Neotontra are so confused and then conflated is because there is the influence of the West within these practices that sometimes have nothing to do with the thing that they started out. Totally. Or like there's just like you know this is just my opinion I'm not trying to be like a separatist or like an essentialist about anything but like somebody who, the psychology of somebody who was born and raised in a India and spends their whole life there is going to be fundamentally different than the psychology of somebody who's born in the United States and spends their whole lives there. And I mean that in the sense of like your psychology is so different that your literal view of reality is different. And so you take these the source materials of these traditions and you plop them somewhere with people who have fundamentally different views of reality. It's going to get lost in translation. I think our expectations are too high frankly. Like how could it not happen. I mean and it's like a very simple example of that is like in a lot of text in like more erotic Tontric spaces people say that Tontra means to weave that is the translation and it's not it's not and it never was as far as I've been aware from the books that I've read and that you've told me and it's like this thing where it's like holy shit like there are so