What Dying People Really Want You to Know with Death Doula Barbie Herron Conkling

Good Grief with Amanda Kloots

In this heartfelt episode of Good Grief, Amanda Kloots sits down with death doula Barbie Herron Conkling to explore the profound experiences surrounding dying, grief, and closure. Drawing from her personal

Key takeaways

• Most people are not afraid of dying—they're afraid of leaving loved ones behind.
• Death doulas provide emotional, spiritual, and practical support to individuals and families during end-of-life transitions.

Main topics

• End-of-life care and the role of death doulas
• Emotional fears surrounding dying and separation

Notable quotes

"Most people aren't afraid of dying—they're afraid of leaving people behind."

"It was like a big hug. There's all these boys that now feel like my children."

Conclusion

This episode underscores the transformative power of grief when met with compassion, ritual, and community. Through Barbie's journey

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Speaker 1 (0:07) All right, everybody. On today's episode of Good Grief, I sit down with death doula, Barbie Heron Conkling. And I have never met this woman. I honestly have never even met or spoken to a death doula. I am so intrigued by this career, this profession, how someone holds space, what kind of emotion and empathy they need to have in order to do this. It is a fascinating episode and I cannot wait to have you guys listen to what she has to say. I think it will inspire us all. I always take a question from our community. You guys write in the most beautiful questions about grief and how we can help each other through these hard times in our life. So today I have a question from Mike and he asks, as someone who is dying, What is something I can do to make sure my loved ones are okay after? I can't imagine a better person to answer this question than a death doula who has sat by many people as they are leaving this earth and transitioning. I think she will have the perfect answer. All right, here's today's episode of Good Grief. How did you Speaker 2 (1:24) get Speaker 1 (1:25) the name Barbie? Speaker 2 (1:25) So I was named after Barbie Benton. Speaker 1 (1:28) Oh, you have hers. Oh, yeah. Speaker 2 (1:29) My dad was like in love with her and he was like, it's just the cutest Speaker 1 (1:33) name. Yeah. Speaker 2 (1:33) Well, my mom actually put Barbara on the birth certificate because she's like, I don't know if I can do this to her, but I've never once been called Barbara. But it's on my ID. Yes. My dad like will not. He's like, you're Barbie. I'm like, OK. Yeah. And then we grew up in Malibu with like horses and a motor home. And my mom got the Corvette. And I was just. Did you love Barbies? I loved Barbies, but it was almost too taboo for me to play with Barbies. So, and I grew up with three brothers. So I was cooler if I carried my tin lunchbox with matchbox scars. So I kind of like ran with that. Thank Speaker 1 (2:07) you so much for being on the pod today. I have never met a death doula. I've never talked to a death doula. I am so ready to just learn from you and learn about what you do. And just thank you so much for saying yes. Thank you. Speaker 2 (2:25) I feel like this is such important work and it's like the pebble in the pond. The more people that know about it and know how to open that container, it just kind of melts away the fear, right? Speaker 1 (2:37) Yes. I mean, I wish I would have had one when I went through my loss with Nick, but you were saying, and then I was like, wait till we're recording. So Speaker 2 (2:47) there's an interwoven piece between you and I, and it's... So in 2020, my son was battling cancer at Cedars-Sinai and we were on lockdown. And I would sit outside the hospital parking lot just to be close to him day after day after day. How did we Speaker 1 (3:11) not see each other? And one of the Speaker 2 (3:12) nurses Speaker 1 (3:12) told me, you Speaker 2 (3:15) should look up Amanda because your faith is similar, your love for... the patient is similar and you would go to any lengths, you know, to, and so I messaged you. Oh Speaker 1 (3:28) my God. And, Speaker 2 (3:29) but we weren't friends. So it probably went to the, you know, deep caves of the inbox. And I just said, you don't know me. And I said, but I sit outside of Cedars-Sinai every day to stay close to my son. And, and then I just encourage you. I can't wait for the day for Nick to walk out of that hospital with you. my son ended up passing away as well. And, you know, it was just, I just felt this like deep connection because during that time, during COVID, we would have gone, we would have scaled the walls, you know. Speaker 1 (4:00) Oh, yeah. I mean, I almost Speaker 2 (4:02) was about to. Yeah. I was about to like Spider-Man it. It's so funny because I actually snuck in one time and I took a picture with him and people are like, how'd you get in? I was like, mama Spidey senses. Oh, yeah. Like we'll go to any Speaker 1 (4:15) lengths. I am so sorry about your son. Thank you. When did he pass away? Speaker 2 (4:18) December 17th, 2023. Speaker 1 (4:20) Okay. So he did, did he, he eventually got out of Cedars-Sinai? It was, he would get out and... Go back in and get out and you'd be in Speaker 2 (4:28) for three months. And, you know, it just from 2019 to 2023 was a rough, rough road. What Speaker 1 (4:34) kind of cancer? He was born with a genetic mutation. It was called Gardner syndrome. So he battled for Speaker 2 (4:39) 27 years. Oh Speaker 1 (4:41) my gosh. And Speaker 2 (4:41) he lived so big. He was, you know, a surfer and motocross rider and, you know, did all the things. Yeah. And the last few years took him. Speaker 1 (4:51) What's his, what was his full name? Lyon Skyler Heron. Lyon? Yeah. I mean, Barbie and Lion? Do you know what else is so funny? When I found out I was having a boy, Nick was devastated because he really wanted a girl. Since he was 10 years old, her name was Ava and we were having a girl. And when we found out we were having a boy, he, like in our reveal video, it's so funny because his whole face drops. Oh, no. So then we start thinking of boy names. And the whole time I kept going like Amanda and Jackson, Amanda and Steve, Amanda and, you know, Axel. And then I was like, Amanda and Elvis. And I was like, that's it. That's done. And Nick was like, no, no. But I mean, Lion and Barbie. Yeah. Speaker 2 (5:40) Yeah. What's your Speaker 1 (5:41) husband's name? His name's Rich. Okay. All right. That goes. That goes. I Speaker 2 (5:46) mean. Speaker 2 (5:49) Wow. Not Lion's dad, though. I had Lion when I was 17. Oh, Speaker 1 (5:54) my gosh. Yeah. Speaker 2 (5:54) So Lion would be 34 today. He passed when he was 31. What's Speaker 1 (5:59) the best thing about having a kid at 17? You don't Speaker 2 (6:02) overthink anything. You just do it. You Speaker 1 (6:04) just Speaker 2 (6:04) do it. You Speaker 1 (6:05) just Speaker 2 (6:05) do it. Did you have Speaker 1 (6:06) an insane relationship with him? Yeah, he Speaker 2 (6:08) was my best. friend and soulmate. We grew up together, you know, and then he got diagnosed when he was four. So it was like this journey that life took us on was. You were 21. So epic. Yeah. Wow. Speaker 1 (6:19) Yeah. Forever changing your life. Yeah. At 21 years old, you're, you're, you're like learning lessons that people don't learn until they're like 60. Exactly. Yeah. But you know Speaker 2 (6:29) what, how beautiful, because I was reminded of what truly matters at a really young age. Speaker 1 (6:35) Amen. You Speaker 2 (6:35) know what I mean? It was. it was real life was just put in front of me and you know we made choices to live to the fullest Speaker 1 (6:44) and Speaker 2 (6:45) we did yeah Speaker 1 (6:47) and he Speaker 2 (6:47) did yeah Speaker 1 (6:47) and Speaker 2 (6:48) there's no regrets oh i just love that that's really beautiful it was the hardest thing about being 17 and being a new mom i just didn't have the stability you know to provide for him the way that i would have wanted to you know i i definitely was you know wick and um you know, food stamps and, you know, working two jobs and doing everything I can to provide. So that was the struggle. I didn't have the stability, but I wouldn't change a thing. Speaker 1 (7:13) Yeah. I Speaker 2 (7:14) loved it. Did Speaker 1 (7:15) you have any support, family support? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My Speaker 2 (7:18) mom was supportive and I had three brothers and they were, you know, we called them the brother uncles, the bruncles. Speaker 1 (7:24) Yeah. The bruncles. Speaker 2 (7:25) Yeah. So there was a lot of support and all my girlfriends, you know, he had like a tribe of mamas, you know, everyone just kind of pitched in. I was like, the first one in Malibu of our generation to have a kid. Okay. So he was just this like little golden king child. It's really cute. I Speaker 1 (7:41) bet he, I relate a little bit to this because Elvis has just been raised by adults because I have needed so much help. Yeah. So I understand. And I actually feel like Elvis is the coolest little kid because he has all these adult friends. All these aunties and uncles. You know, it takes a village. It really does. Speaker 2 (8:01) Yeah. Speaker 1 (8:01) Well, I... I Speaker 2 (8:02) wish Speaker 1 (8:02) we would have met on the stairs of Cedars-Sinai Hospital because that would have just been such a blessing. I know. I mean, wow. But we're meeting Speaker 2 (8:11) here and I just, it was so funny because when you messaged me, I saw our message and I was like, oh my gosh, here we are six years later. And this is where we get to show up and alchemize our pain and suffering and grief and be of service because of it. And the magic in that was. even more special to me. I mean, that Speaker 1 (8:32) is really cool. I have chills. So it's what a blessing. We were meant to meet. Speaker 2 (8:37) It truly Speaker 1 (8:37) is. Yeah. So this is really cool. And honestly, like I've literally just like on Instagram, I was like, who knows a death doula in LA? And then your Speaker 2 (8:46) name. So wild. Well, Speaker 1 (8:48) I want to start this off by asking you kind of like true or false questions. Okay. Because I... have so many ideas in my own head about what a death doula does or is. I'm sure a lot of people do. So I want you to set the record straight. Okay. All right, here we go. I'm just going to preface that everybody's Speaker 2 (9:10) journey as a death doula is different. And so I, you know, kind of emphasize what I do and the work that I do. And I'm very ceremonial based. I'm a ceremonial death midwife is kind of the title. So the Speaker 1 (9:24) true and false is, you know. For me. For you. I like that. Okay. Death doulas are there to take care of the family of the dying person. True or false? Support a Speaker 2 (9:36) family. Okay. Speaker 1 (9:37) True. Okay. Most people aren't afraid of dying. They're afraid of leaving people behind. True. People wait until they're alone to die. Not always. Not always. Speaker 2 (9:49) More than... It happens because of that energetic connection. Speaker 2 (9:57) It's like a helium balloon with a string and they feel tethered because of the love. And so it's easier for them to, their soul to leave their body when that tethering is not present. I Speaker 1 (10:09) love how you just explained that. That makes so much sense. Speaker 2 (10:12) Okay. Speaker 1 (10:13) Oh, I'm already loving this conversation. Hospice and death doulas or midwives are basically the same thing. False. False. Death becomes less scary after you've witnessed enough of it. True. Speaker 2 (10:30) You Speaker 1 (10:30) cry at almost every death. Speaker 2 (10:32) False. Speaker 1 (10:34) Children understand death better than adults. Speaker 2 (10:37) True. I Speaker 1 (10:40) love this so much. The biggest regrets happen in the final days. Speaker 2 (10:44) True. Speaker 1 (10:46) You learn more about life from dying people than living people. Speaker 2 (10:49) 100 % true. 100 Speaker 1 (10:51) % Speaker 2 (10:51) true. I agree with that. Our biggest teachers. Speaker 1 (10:55) Yeah. Speaker 2 (10:55) Yeah. Speaker 1 (10:56) I always say death Speaker 2 (10:57) taught me how to live. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (10:59) How long have you been a death midwife? Is that what you would like to be? A death midwife. And Speaker 2 (11:05) I'll explain why I use that term. Almost eight years. Okay. Speaker 1 (11:11) Seven years. Almost eight years. Okay. 2018. Okay. All right. Yeah. And how did that come to Speaker 2 (11:18) be? Yeah, I wasn't a little girl. It's not even on Speaker 1 (11:21) my card, but I wasn't even gonna ask you this, but now I find you so fascinating. I need to know. It's one of those things, Speaker 2 (11:26) and it goes back to the question of children understand death more than adults. Speaker 1 (11:31) As Speaker 2 (11:31) a little girl, there was a lot of death around me. And I was kind of shoved to the side. I wasn't old enough. I wasn't mature enough. I couldn't emotionally handle it. And I was so hungry to understand what was happening. Like, you know, a loved one was here and then they were gone and then we couldn't talk about it. Speaker 1 (11:48) And Speaker 2 (11:48) so it just kind of grew this curiosity and this yearning to understand. And I remember being a teenager, reading every book I possibly can on the afterlife. And, you know, many lives, many masters kind of opened this, you know, door for me. Speaker 2 (12:05) you know, just the yearning of wanting to be with someone when they were dying, wanting to be present with them, hold their face, tell them they're safe. Speaker 1 (12:12) But Speaker 2 (12:13) there was this weird energetic wall where I wasn't taught that and I didn't know how to voice what I needed to say. And, you know, this work found me. It was my brother was on life support. And I remember being in the hospital with him for 16 days and just. sitting in complete neutrality. And I remember recognizing that, that I am not going to tether him either way. Like this is between him and God and his soul knows what to do. Speaker 1 (12:44) And Speaker 2 (12:44) if it's his time, then I'm going to honor that and set him free. And if he still has work here to do, I'm going to support that. And so in that space, I kind of opened this container spiritually just to kind of hold him with whatever he needed to do. And he did come out of it. He ended up passing away in 2022. But in that space, I realized that this was like a soul. It was like a download. I was like, this is the work that I need to do. And realized that I just had no fear about it. And I just wanted to melt away the fear. And so I went through my training through Sacred Crossings. And I did the death doula training. And then Death Midwife takes you beyond the final breath. So I have been trained to, you know, hold a body in ceremony for up to five days, five to seven days on dry ice. Speaker 1 (13:36) Oh, wow. And do ceremony Speaker 2 (13:38) because some cultures, you know, prefer that. That's what they do. Speaker 1 (13:41) Okay. So death doula is once the person's... It's kind of Speaker 2 (13:45) leading Speaker 1 (13:45) up to final breath. Okay. And midwife is final breath after. Yes, that was the training in the midwife program was Speaker 2 (13:53) after the Speaker 1 (13:53) final breath. Speaker 2 (13:54) And then I'm also a minister. So I perform memorials, you know, for the people that I've cared for. Yeah. So I just kind of look at the A to Z, you know, I set up hospice, you know, the mortuary. support the family, living legacies. With my son, we did a living memorial and we waited. We didn't wait for everyone to come in and, you know, tell him how much they loved him. And so it's just kind of, you know, this, this colorful basket of all the things that I do. Yeah. Are Speaker 1 (14:29) you a lot of hired, like word of mouth, like once somebody. has you in their life and then they know somebody that's going through loss they're like yeah i gotta call barbie yeah yeah yeah Speaker 2 (14:41) and Speaker 1 (14:42) that's Speaker 2 (14:42) typically um you know just everyone in my circle in the circle you know there's perimeters and it's quite large everyone knows what i do and But it's a weird thing to advertise, you know, so I kind of like, it feels uncomfortable. I've done like one or two posts and I'm always like, oh, you know, just like for it to kind of unfold organically. And, you Speaker 1 (15:05) know, I will say, I can't imagine. Yes, that must be so weird. However, I did not know that this position and person and career existed. Had I known that would have been. I'm sure really helpful to me and my family and my son. And I don't think I even learned that you exist until years after. And I was like, what? Speaker 2 (15:33) That's why it's so important that I'm so grateful that we're talking about it. Okay, good. Yes, let's Speaker 1 (15:39) get the word out. Speaker 2 (15:40) People always say that. They're