GAG574: Dirndl und Lederhosen

Geschichten aus der Geschichte

This episode explores the historical construction and 'invention' of Bavarian traditional clothing, specifically Lederhosen and Dirndl. The

Key takeaways

• Josef Vogl founded the first Bavarian Trachtenverein in 1883 to preserve local clothing styles.
• The Wittelsbach monarchy used traditional attire to foster a sense of unity among diverse regions like Franconia and Swabia.

Main topics

• Origins of Lederhosen
• History of the Dirndl

Notable quotes

Tradition... not the lifting of ashes, but the furthering of fire.

Conclusion

The episode provides a fascinating look at how cultural identity is in

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:02) Lernt ein bisschen Geschichte, dann werdet ihr sehen, wie der Reporter sich damals entwickelt hat. Hallo Speaker 2 (0:14) und herzlich willkommen bei Geschichten aus der Geschichte. Mein Name ist Richard. Und mein Name ist Daniel. Jan, we are two historians who tell each other a story from the story week by week, always alternately and also always so that one never knows what the other will always tell. Right. Daniel. Speaker 3 (0:35) Richard. New episode, Speaker 2 (0:37) new luck. Yes, today it is. Why are you so strict today? Why are you so strict? Today you are strict. You learned well, Speaker 3 (0:46) slept Speaker 2 (0:46) well. Very well learned. Yes. Very well slept. Last night I fell asleep very early. You know when? Well, Speaker 3 (0:54) I'll put it this way. You sent me a message at one o'clock. Then Speaker 2 (0:57) I Speaker 3 (0:57) woke up again. I actually Speaker 2 (1:00) fell Speaker 3 (1:01) asleep Speaker 2 (1:01) at quarter to nine. Ui, quarter to nine. Quarter to nine. Then I woke up at one again. And then I woke up at six and of course couldn't sleep anymore. You know what's funny? Speaker 3 (1:11) My sleep rhythm yesterday was actually similar. I fell asleep at nine during the sleep-in accompaniment. I then woke up again at night. And also got up at six because of school. That means our rhythm was similar Speaker 2 (1:27) today, so last night. Yes, we just sank. Sinked, without us knowing. Yes. Excellent, excellent, probably even better, if you can prove to me that you remember what I talked about in the last episode. Speaker 3 (1:43) Oh yes, you told about workers in Krohlebergwerken. And about their payment, which was not necessarily only paid in money, but with, how is the translation, with spare money. Speaker 2 (1:56) Scrip. Exactly, so spare money. Yes, a little jump back and forth between truck and scrip and these topics. And of course the whole thing as an excursion. Feedback, for example, from people who hoped that we would talk Speaker 3 (2:09) a Speaker 2 (2:09) little more about Krupp. Fortunately, Speaker 3 (2:10) you Speaker 2 (2:10) mentioned Speaker 3 (2:10) that at Speaker 2 (2:10) the end. Speaker 2 (2:13) My focus, and that's of course always with such a complex topic, you have to focus on it. And I mainly focused on the US American, the southern Appalachian area. But as we said at the end of the discussion, there's still a lot to talk about, especially these... These company towns, which were not first in the company towns, they grew up in a pit, but they were actually laid down to be able to exert another influence there, paternalistic. Speaker 3 (2:46) Yes, but nice Speaker 2 (2:47) feedback gets in this regard to this episode. Speaker 3 (2:50) Very nice. And I think it's better to focus on a certain... Gegend und Zeit zu setzen, weil dann kann man nämlich, wenn man mal eine Folge zu Krupp machen, einfach Vergleiche ziehen und kann dann sich da nochmal anschauen, was waren die Unterschiede, was war ähnlich, warum Speaker 2 (3:06) und wie. So ist es. Also es ist auch eine Investition in die Zukunft. Speaker 3 (3:11) Jede Folge ist eine Investition in die Zukunft, Richard. Speaker 2 (3:18) Excellent. Well, Daniel, do we have anything masterful? Speaker 3 (3:42) Und damit also in die Zukunft investiert. Also wer sowas macht, kann sich hier bewerben. Es gibt in jedem Jahr 60.000 Euro zu vergeben. Und die Einreichfrist ist bis zum 31. Oktober. Fantastisch. Speaker 2 (3:54) Ja gut, Daniel, in diesem Fall von der Jury-Tätigkeit zum Geschichtenerzählen, würde ich sagen. Soll ich loslegen? Du denke. Speaker 3 (4:03) Richard, im Sommer 18... In Speaker 2 (4:07) 1983, Speaker 3 (4:07) the teacher Josef Vogel sits with five friends at the table in Bayerisch Zell, a small place in the Upper Bavarian Alps near Miesbach and the Tegernsee. And Vogel complains in the round that they would wear less and less work trousers made of leather in the area and that the trousers would become longer and longer and that everyone would only walk around in long trousers as a loader. And the group around the bird, they then let themselves be taken from a sackler in Miesbach. These are the ones that make leather clothes, also called baggers or bag makers. And the group about the bird is then made of a sack of short pants made of leather in Miesbach. And short is important in the context. Und als die Männer dann mit ihren Lederhosen losziehen und zum ersten Mal auf die Straßen gehen, was glaubst du passiert dann? Speaker 2 (4:57) Ja, Aufruhr. Aufruhr. Speaker 3 (4:59) Sie werden ausgelacht. Als Kniehösler werden sie verspottet. Und auch als sie in die Kirche gehen wollen, da heißt es, mit diesen Hosen ist ihnen verboten, an Prozessionen teilzunehmen. Speaker 2 (5:11) Ja, verständlich. Speaker 3 (5:12) Die Hosen werden später sogar für sittenwidrig erklärt. Aber das schreckt den Vogel alles nicht ab. Am 25. August 1883 gründet er den Verein für Erhaltung der Volkstracht im Leitzachtale. Und das gilt als der erste bayerische Trachtenverein und es sollten viele weitere folgen. Und auch wenn Vogel im Dorf und bei der Kirche auf herbe Kritik stößt mit seinen Lederhosen, beim Bayerischen König, bei Ludwig II., findet er Gehör. For the Wittelsbachs, tracts have a special meaning. Ludwig's father, King Maximilian II, had a regulation in 1853, about 30 years earlier, for the elevation of the national feeling, especially of the country tracts. And that's ultimately the basis on which these tracts are created. The story about the bird is of course a bit anecdotally condensed. Because that's the original story of the leather pants, as we still know them today. Because he founded the first tracts club, many other tracts clubs in Bavaria will follow. And he therefore also plays a key role in the spread of the leather pants, because of course many of them Speaker 2 (6:27) then Speaker 3 (6:27) orientate Speaker 2 (6:27) themselves on Speaker 3 (6:27) his leather pants. Speaker 2 (6:29) And Speaker 3 (6:30) Richard, you already know it. We're talking about tracts, especially Bavarian and Alpine. It's about dandelions and leather pants. And why the tracts we call Bavarian today are actually only spread in the second half of the 19th century. Excellent. Very good. A large part of this was made by people like Josef Vogel, the tracts clubs, the Bavarian kings, but also two Jewish merchants from Bielefeld, the Wallach brothers. And it is clear for everyone who listens to this episode shortly after the release. Now, at the moment, we have the end of September. The biggest national holiday in the world is currently running. The Oktoberfest. But the topic is still timeless. So I've always, actually already in recent years, always again intended to do Speaker 2 (7:14) something Speaker 3 (7:14) on the Speaker 2 (7:15) subject of tracts and now just take Speaker 3 (7:17) the Speaker 2 (7:17) opportunity. I've also already gotten Speaker 3 (7:19) some Speaker 2 (7:19) hints about it, because it's as always such a funny topic, because it's basically a topic of the 19th century. Exactly. The rootstock is made for Speaker 3 (7:28) it Speaker 2 (7:28) in the 19th century. Speaker 3 (7:30) It's really fascinating. We're going to hear a few more examples now. Also the meaning, I wasn't actually aware of that. die das Oktoberfest für die Verbreitung der Tracht hatte, ist wirklich enorm. Und aufs Oktoberfest werden wir deshalb im Laufe der Folge immer wieder zurückkommen, weil ohne das Oktoberfest würde es wahrscheinlich das Dirndl oder Lederhosen, so wie wir sie heute kennen, nicht geben. Interessant. Und ich nehme an, Richard, als geborener Steirer, vorarlbergisch sozialisiert und in Wien lebend, hattest du in deinem Leben schon viel Kontakt zu Trachten oder zu Menschen in Tracht? Speaker 2 (8:04) Ja, natürlich. I mean, less in Vorarlberg, but of course in the Steiermark. I've had a Junker as a child, but never a real one that I thought was cut for me. But when I went on holiday in Salzgärmergut a few Speaker 3 (8:23) years ago, Speaker 2 (8:23) I bought a nice Junker there. Ah, very nice. Speaker 2 (8:29) Nowadays, the jacuzzis are of course not so classic, because I didn't want one that was really classic, but also a cut that I can wear like this. But I thought it also Speaker 3 (8:42) belongs Speaker 2 (8:42) to it. Green collar, fabric and so on. Speaker 3 (8:46) What you just said is exactly the topic. What is classic? That's exactly the topic. Since when is it authentic? Speaker 2 (8:56) Was ist überhaupt schon authentisch? Werden wir uns wahrscheinlich am Ende dieser Folge grundsätzlich fragen. Ganz genau. Ich wollte eben gerade sagen, ich habe die noch nie in Lederhosen gesehen. Lederhosen habe ich keine. Habe ich als Kind gehabt. Es gibt sicher Fotos. Also Lederhosen haben wir schon gehabt, weil mein Vater ja stärker ist. Da müssen die Kinder schon Lederhosen tragen. But I think later, when I grew up as a child, I didn't have any more and didn't wear any either. Speaker 3 (9:21) Especially in Steiermark, the Steider suit is Speaker 2 (9:24) the most Speaker 3 (9:24) famous suit, which is less dependent Speaker 2 (9:27) on Speaker 3 (9:27) the leather pants, but rather on this, is it a linen suit? I Speaker 2 (9:31) think Speaker 3 (9:31) it's a linen, yes. It's a linen suit that is Speaker 2 (9:34) very present in Speaker 3 (9:34) such a dark green. So I have to say, I personally, I certainly also had a wahrscheinlich eine Lederhose gehabt. Aber an sich so wenig Bezug zu Tracht, es liegt, glaube ich, ein Stück weit an meiner Jugendzeit, weil in der Zeit, in der ich aufgewachsen bin, war es noch nicht üblich, in Tracht auf Volksfeste zu gehen. Das mag in anderen Gegenden anders gewesen sein in den 1990er Jahren, aber das lässt sich auch auf dem Oktoberfest beobachten. Wenn du da Bilder aus den 80er Jahren siehst, da sind die allerwenigsten in Tracht. Da siehst du keine Lederhosen und Dirndl. Und in der Anfangszeit der Wiesn, We will get to see in a minute. There are some good candidates down there. Also dieser Trachtenboom, den man heute so beobachten kann, der hat sich erst in den letzten 20, 25 Jahren ergeben oder ist immer größer geworden. Und das sieht man nicht nur am Oktoberfest. Also wenn hier in Regensburg zum Beispiel das Volksfest stattfindet, die Duld heißt die hier, dann laufen hier in der Stadt richtig viele in Dirndl und Lederhosen rum. Und das gab es in meiner Jugend nicht. Also das ist was, was wirklich erst in den letzten 20, 25 Jahren passiert ist. Aber zunächst mal zum Begriff Tracht. Hast du eine Idee, was das heißt oder wo das herkommt? Tracht. Speaker 2 (10:49) Keine Ahnung, vielleicht von in ein Tracht, so dass alle gleich ausschauen. Speaker 3 (10:54) Gute Idee. Kommt vom niederdeutschen Tracht, was so viel heißt wie das, was getragen wird oder die Art, wie es getragen wird. And it is meant, when we talk about Tracht, that we imagine a clothing culture of the rural peasant population. And actually what one has imagined Speaker 2 (11:12) at Speaker 3 (11:12) a certain point in time. Namely, the time is exactly the 19th century or the end of the 19th century. Because it is so that the clothing, also the rural peasant clothing, has changed constantly over time. Speaker 3 (11:28) zwar sicher nicht so in der Geschwindigkeit, wie sich bei uns heute die Mode verändert, aber Kleidung war nie konstant, zumal wir ja hier auch über Einzelstücke reden. Also das war ja keine Stangenware. Und es kommt noch ein anderer Aspekt hinzu. Diese Kleidung ist ja regional sehr unterschiedlich. Dann auch unterschiedlich, was die Konfessionen betrifft und auch was den sozialen Status betrifft. Also Kleidung ist was very complex with very many different variants and also with regard Speaker 2 (12:00) to Speaker 3 (12:00) the occasion very different. There are the working pants, which of course are not the day-care pants. That's why it's hard to Speaker 2 (12:05) say, Speaker 3 (12:06) how do the leather pants look or the dandelion look? It's just, it has to be standardized at Speaker 2 (12:14) some point and Speaker 3 (12:14) there we come into the 19th century. What you can observe, however, is that in the 19th century interest in tracts arises. There is a certain moment where people like Vogel stand up and say, wait a minute, how did people dress earlier? Speaker 2 (12:30) Can I guess briefly why this happened at that time? Did it have anything to do with the agreement? That someone in Bavaria said, hey, we're not all the same, but I'd like to make the difference between Bavaria and Prussia. No, Speaker 3 (12:47) so... You're right, it has a political reason, but it's not the distinction between Prussia and Bavaria. Speaker 2 (12:52) Okay. Speaker 3 (12:53) The interest in tracts arises from two sides. From the Bavarian king, the Wittelsbachers, so to a certain extent the state interest. They are looking for something that stands for the Bavarian lifestyle. Speaker 2 (13:08) That's the reason I always thought that. Bavaria wants to get rid of the rest to show that they have Speaker 3 (13:15) something of their own. But not exactly that, but they don't want to distance themselves from the rest, but they want to create a sense of belonging within the kingdom. Because in 1806, Bavaria becomes a kingdom and it's a pretty Speaker 2 (13:27) big pile. So you don't just Speaker 3 (13:30) have Speaker 2 (13:30) the Bavarians, you also have the Franks, you have the Swabians. How do you make Speaker 3 (13:34) it Speaker 2 (13:34) so that the Franconian Windsor feels just like Bavaria, like the Upper Speaker 3 (13:37) Bavarian mountain builder? I Speaker 2 (13:39) understand. Okay, that means it has nothing to do with Germany in itself, but it's an inner Bavarian problem. Speaker 3 (13:44) Exactly, it's an inner Bavarian problem. The Wittelsbachs are looking for a way to give this newly