The Secret Life of Charity Shops with Tansy E. Hoskins (#174)

Garmology - A podcast about clothes, and stuff.

In this episode, host Nick interviews investigative journalist Tansy E. Hoskins about her new book, 'Charity Shop World'. The conversation e

Key takeaways

• Tansy E. Hoskins' research highlights how the value of 'rag' (unsellable clothing) has dropped from 45p per kilo to just 1.5p per kilo over the last decade.
• Major UK organizations like Oxfam, British Heart Foundation, and Cancer Research are facing significant shop closures due to economic pressures.

Main topics

• Charity shop economics
• Global textile waste streams

Notable quotes

The fashion industry is like an incredibly beautiful cake... but the minute you take a knife and cut into it, you see... the blood and the rubble.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a call to action for more mindful, seasonal, and

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Hello and welcome to another episode of Gumology, a podcast about clothes and stuff. Now today I'm back in the UK, not quite sure where in the UK, but I'm talking to Tansy Hoskins about her new book. Well, we'll get there. But first of all, maybe, Tansy, would you like to introduce yourself? Speaker 1 (0:23) Sure. So thank you, Nick. And I can let you know that I'm in London in the UK. It's not quite as hot as it has been, thankfully. Yeah, I'm an investigative journalist. I investigate the fashion industry. And I've been doing that for... over 10 years now. So looking at garment factories, shoe production, recycling, and now, yeah, now secondhand clothing. Speaker 2 (1:02) Because your new book is The Charity Shop World. Before we get into that, I would like to hear a bit more about your previous books. Yeah. Because reading about them, I realised I have to read those as well. So you started out with writing about anti-capitalist fashion? Yeah. Speaker 1 (1:23) So I've been writing overall about the fashion industry since about 2010, so blogging and writing about it. And I was writing about things that I was interested in, and then it turned out there was an audience for that. And at that time... it was very very rare for anyone to put the words capitalism and fashion next to each other and but I yeah that capitalism was the lens through which I wanted to explore the fashion industry and fashion was the lens through which I decided to explore capitalism as well so in 2014 I published a book with Pluto Press that was called Stitched Up, the Anti-Capitalist Book of Fashion. And that I handed that in a few days before the collapse of the Rana Plaza factory complex in Bangladesh. And it came out a year later. Then I went and that kind of opened loads of doors and I. became a professional journalist and i got to write for lots of papers most notably the guardian i wrote a lot for the guardian so i didn't write another book or publish another book until 2020 and that was when i published footwork what your shoes tell you about globalization Speaker 1 (2:57) And yeah, and that is that was literally a deep dive, you know, 80,000 words on the footwear industry, you know, yeah, how they're made, the ancient, you know, prehistoric history of shoes, the shoe factories in the modern day world, and then what happens to shoes after we use them, plus loads of stuff on like the cultural significance of shoes. And I loved writing. Yeah, I loved writing that book. And that one came out in March 2020. So as the pandemic happened, so I cancelled my book launch. My book launch was done online. My book tour was cancelled. So I feel like Footwork is kind of the one that got away. I love that book, but it's not as well known as my other books. So, yeah, I would love it if you read that one. And then I was invited by Pluto Press to rewrite Stitched Up. And that became the anti-capitalist book of fashion. And that is 60 % new material, a total update almost a decade on. And then after I'd finished that, then I got the idea for Charity Shop World whilst I was in a charity shop. and decided to pursue that. And the reason I've like only in inverted commas written four books is because it takes an incredible amount of time to do the proposal, get somebody to agree to publish it and then research and write it. So I'm not like a, I'm not a fast, you know, producer of books. I'm like, I'm a slow, slow, steady, deep researcher kind of author. but yeah that's my that's my catalog i Speaker 2 (4:53) i guess writing books like this in a serious manner you have to have all the references right and have to have done the research and because you don't want to have published it and people are saying hang on that's not right because i mean the reference section in your latest book is pretty substantial yeah Speaker 1 (5:11) yeah i mean i i I can't explain really how much work it takes to publish a nonfiction book, like an investigative nonfiction book where you are, you know, like naming and shaming people and, you know, and being a bit spiky and going against the grain. Like there's so much that goes into that, like both the research, the writing, editorially, and then the legal hurdles. was like literally the legal hurdles to get charity shop world into print have have been huge it's a whole other job in it in itself just to just to just to be able to to say the things that i say in the book Is Speaker 2 (6:00) that to make sure there's no comeback later on? Yeah, Speaker 1 (6:04) to make sure that what I'm saying in the book is true. And so I am protected against defamation claims, basically. And as you know, in this book, I have investigated some very powerful people and organisations. Speaker 1 (6:26) It was extremely important to make sure that it's watertight. Speaker 2 (6:33) Yeah. Speaker 1 (6:35) Yeah. I Speaker 2 (6:35) can see why that would be. Speaker 1 (6:37) Yes. Speaker 2 (6:39) Now, I think it's very likely we're going to have to come back to the first books later on. But you found yourself in a charity shop and you were suddenly struck by inspiration. Speaker 1 (6:52) Yeah, I was. I wasn't specifically looking for another book idea, but it wasn't just being in a charity shop. It was being in a charity shop where there was a conversation happening amongst the shop staff about the cost of living crisis and the housing crisis in the area where that charity shop was in particular. Speaker 1 (7:22) that was just like a light bulb going on, really. I was just like, oh, there is, you know, there's an important story to tell here and there's something here that needs digging into. But once I have an idea, and not all the ideas I've had have become books, like once I have an idea, I then have to go away and... I usually like research, like has another book just been written on this, you know, topic already? Is there, you know, is this just like, there's no point doing this because actually I could just read, you know, so-and-so's book and be happy with that. And then, and then like actually thinking about, you know, can an idea turn into a book? Will there be enough here that I could actually write 70,000 words, 80,000 words on it? Or is this, you know, is this a, like an article. So yeah, it's a long, a long process. And then I have to convince my dear agent, Andrew, that it's a good idea. And usually we go back and forth for a long time, because I'm not very good at writing book proposals. So he's very patient, we go back and forth a lot. And then he has to once he's happy, then he has to persuade or find a publisher who is then interested. So it's like it's a very protracted. Speaker 1 (8:47) process and Speaker 2 (8:49) that's before you've even written the first chapter yeah Speaker 1 (8:51) yeah i mean the the typically the book proposals end up being about 10 000 words long so they are you know and it's intellectually rigorous you have to sort of shape the book before you've written it and outline you know like lay out what you're going to write and stuff so uh i do i find that bit really hard but um Yeah, that's a really it's a good it's a good basis to then start from if you are successful in finding a publisher. Speaker 2 (9:23) So the charity shop world is kind of a love letter to charity shops and kind of a realistic assessment of how they're doing and how the future may be. Speaker 1 (9:39) Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:40) Yeah, Speaker 1 (9:40) I think that's a really nice, really nice summary. Yes. Yes. Yes, it's not like somebody said to me, oh, you know, like, if I read your book, like, are you just going to make me like hate charity shops? And I was like, no, like, I love them. They are like a huge, huge part of my life. They've always been a huge part of my life. Like, I'm not gonna like, this is not a... hateful book or an anti-charity shop book. But yes, it is, as you say, like it is a, it's, it's, it's a, it's still a, you know, like a no holes barred, it's a realistic look at what's happening because the model is certainly not perfect. Speaker 2 (10:25) Now, I have to admit, I can never walk by a charity shop when I am in the UK. I will always stop in for a rummage round. I love the idea. They have been, some of them seem to be in trouble lately. Some of the big charities have been closing down shops and so forth. Speaker 1 (10:46) Yeah. Speaker 2 (10:51) They have also, I mean, the last 10 years or so, the amount of charity shops has also increased dramatically. Speaker 1 (10:59) Yes. As Speaker 2 (11:00) I understand it. Speaker 1 (11:01) Yes. I mean, yes. I mean, charity shops. they go hand in hand with austerity and the cost of living crisis and other businesses closing down. Even though the last figure I saw said that charity shops only make up 3 % of retail units, which is small on the one hand, but also, yeah, it's very significant. Speaker 1 (11:30) everywhere at the moment and they you know they're filling the holes in in in high streets um but yes they are they are in trouble british heart foundation is closing hundreds of charity shops or dozens of charity shops cancer research is doing the same then only this week we had the announcement from oxfam that they are going to review all of their charity shops and potentially over a hundred of those might close and their giant sorting warehouse in Batley might close. So it's a, like, it's a, it's really sad. Like, I'm finding it really sad this week. I think about all the people who volunteer in the charity shop, and who get gain community from those charity shops and purpose the way that I did when I worked for 16 months in one. It was wonderful. It's sociable. It's a lifeline. You meet people. You learn about your community. You're doing something good and positive. And yeah, I feel really sad that there will be... thousands of people who will lose that in in their life um i also feel sad about the the holes that will open up in the in the in the high streets um as well and the um the people you know tens of thousands of people who will lose access to affordable clothing when their local charity shop goes you know and affordable birthday presents and affordable christmas presents and um and a nice time you know like you say like they are you know it's it's a lovely thing to go into a charity shop and like um yeah have have a rummage um i was wondering when you said that like uh what's it like in in norway do you have charity shops i can i Speaker 2 (13:26) can talk a bit about the situation in norway before we loop back um basically norway is the Salvation Army, Speaker 1 (13:34) who Speaker 2 (13:35) have most of the shops and collect most of the clothes. They're very often profiled as a recycling, environmental type of organization. But I did some research on that and they're not really because almost all the clothes they collect are shipped off to Eastern Europe. And their main business is actually work training for people trying to find a job. Speaker 1 (14:05) Okay. So Speaker 2 (14:07) it's kind of just a bit random that they're selling clothes in our kind of charity shop. Speaker 1 (14:13) Yeah. Speaker 2 (14:14) The second largest one, they collect a lot of clothes, but that also goes straight off to Eastern Europe. Speaker 1 (14:19) Okay. And Speaker 2 (14:20) their shops are basically then stocked with vintage clothing they buy from France, I think. Speaker 1 (14:27) Okay. Yeah. Speaker 2 (14:29) I only noticed that because they had so many clothes that obviously hadn't come from Norway. Speaker 1 (14:35) Yeah. Speaker 2 (14:37) But they were quite open when I asked them about where their clothes come from. So they're collecting tons and tons of clothes, shipping them off to France and then getting... ready sorted clothes back to put in their shops Speaker 1 (14:48) it's so weird it's such a weird weird model uh isn't it all over the world you know like worn clothes being exported out of one country sorted in another country sold in another you know another country imported back like it's it's really like really really weird really broken Speaker 2 (15:13) We do also have a few more British style ones, which are run mainly by church groups, religious organizations. They do a fair job on that. Speaker 1 (15:28) But Speaker 2 (15:28) I mean, Norway has nowhere near the amount of charity shops as the UK has. Speaker 1 (15:33) Yeah. Speaker 2 (15:35) And Speaker 1 (15:36) are they like, are they cool? Like, do like, do you know, do people go in them? And are, like, happy to be there and will, like, post about it and talk about, oh, this thing they got from the charity shop. Speaker 2 (15:49) Some of them, but we've also seen that rise in prices here. As vintage became fashionable, especially the Salvation Army, really jacked up the prices. Speaker 2 (16:03) And I think a lot of people thought, no, hang on, that's not right. Because given they're shipping 90 % of the donations off without even looking at them, Speaker 1 (16:13) they're Speaker 2 (16:14) not giving actual reuse a chance. Speaker 1 (16:17) Yeah, yeah, that's disappointing. Speaker 2 (16:22) So, but that's just one of the many, many, many things we need to unpack. Because, I mean, this is clothing, fashion, recycling, reuse. It is a hugely complicated system with so many players in it and so many factors that... I often think anyone looking for a quick and easy solution or some smart answer, it's just not going to happen. Speaker 1 (16:53) Yes. Speaker 2 (16:56) Because everything's so interconnected and it's all so effed up. Speaker 1 (17:02) Yes, I would agree with that. Yes, there's not a simple solution. Speaker 2 (17:11) But, I mean, a lot of people look down on charity shops and a lot of people think, oh, I'd never wear secondhand clothes or something that's been used before. As you point out in the book. There is historical precedence for selling and using secondhand clothes, which goes way, way back. Can you tell us a bit about that? Yeah, Speaker 1 (17:34) this was one of my favourite bits of the book to research. And, you know, you spoke a bit about the references in the book. And, yeah, part of the reason I always have so many references in the book is because I'm always kind of... I don't know, like showcasing the work of incredible scholars who've come before me and looked into these kind of things. So I was so interested to read about the way, essentially the fashion, the secondhand clothing industry is as old as the concept of fashion. So, and the way that the secondhand clothing industry allowed fashion to exist. because it allowed people, and we're talking here, you know, sort of Renaissance Florence and things like that, where people would have the most extraordinary garments, you know, and gowns and suits that they would wear with like, you know, 15 different styles of detachable sleeves and pleated velvets and silks and in like, you know, turquoise and gold and brocade and all kinds of just extraordinary clothing. But part of the way the rich were able to keep affording these extraordinarily expensive flamboyant clothing is because they could sell the stuff that they'd worn already. And they would sell it to very, very specialist secondhand clothing merchants who would then. sell it on and so the money that came back to the the super rich was then what then drove uh fashion um forward and and it also allowed those ultra expensive fancy styles to trickle down you know to the next layer of society and then the next layer of society um so yeah i mean there's there's always been there's always been clothing uh resale as part of the the fashion system Speaker 2 (19:33) So that would mean that even back then there were fashions. So obviously the super rich, what's their fancy thing with 15 detachable arms was out of fashion. They needed the new stuff. Yeah. Speaker 1 (19:48) Yeah. I mean, the more the more a society is class based, the more fashion there is, because I see it as a way of the rich to demarcate themselves off from the middle classes and the poor. So as soon as people. quote unquote beneath them start catching up it's time to you know it's time to move on like they don't want to be wearing uh the same things um as as everybody else and yeah for me fashion is you know changing styles of clothing worn by groups of people uh you know it's that is that simple and definitely yeah in medieval florence they they they very much had had fashions and like extraordinarily flamboyant And yeah, and exciting fashions that, you know, where a dress would be enough to like feed a village for six months, like that, you know, that kind of level of flamboyance in clothing. Speaker 2 (20:46) Different times now, I mean, that flamboyant dress is today's skinny jeans or... Speaker 2 (20:53) There's not the same sort of values at work there. Speaker 1 (20:56) Yeah. Yeah. Well, in different, I mean, I guess people have different ways of showing that they're wealthy, you know, the way people use clothing to show that they're rich has changed. And yeah, now you have the sort of stealth wealth, like looks and things. Speaker 2 (21:22) Yeah, which kind of works against itself because if you realise that there is stealth wealth, then it isn't exactly stealthy any longer. The kind of sort of luxurious people you want to emulate probably never wore it anyway because you've just fallen for another marketing trick. Speaker 1 (21:39) Yes, yes. Much better to just have your own style that you really love and that you're comfortable in. Yeah, have fun with that. Speaker 2 (21:53) Because fashion does have a lot to speak for. And I was just talking to someone this morning about how fashion seems to get such a free pass because it's creative, it's colourful, it's wonderful, it's all this and that. But it is really just the front door to a massive industry which is causing so many problems all over. Speaker 1 (22:15) Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I always think of the fashion industry as being like an... an incredibly beautiful cake, you know, with like pink and white icing and candles and gold leaf. And, you know, it looks sensational. But the minute you take a knife and cut into it, you see, you know, the blood and the rubble and the oil and the trauma and the, you know, the billions of dead animals and everything that it takes, the chopped down rainforest and, you know, everything that it takes to create the fashion industry, like everything. hidden behind this yeah really really fancy but really really fake veneer of icing sugar Speaker 2