Best Of: Jason Segel / Lisa Kudrow

Fresh Air

Jason Segel and Lisa Kudrow discuss their Emmy-nominated roles in 'Shrinking' and 'The Comeback,' respectively, reflecting on personal thera

Key takeaways

• Therapy can be transformative when it provides actionable direction rather than endless introspection.

Main topics

• Emmy-nominated performances
• Therapy and mental health

Notable quotes

You don't have any kids. Just go to your sister's in Vancouver.

Conclusion

The episode offers a candid look at how personal struggles inform arti

Transcript preview

Speaker 7 (0:00) Country singer and rapper Shaboosie wants us to remember our history accurately. The Speaker 8 (0:04) cowboy image, you know, we tend to think that was just a white man, you know, on a horse with a cowboy hat. But, you know, one in every four cowboys were Black. Speaker 7 (0:13) On the Sunday Story from Up First, Shaboosie talks about his latest album and the Black roots of country music. Listen to the Sunday Story in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 4 (0:24) From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley in Los Angeles. Today, Jason Segel. In the comedy-drama series Shrinking, he plays a psychotherapist who's having a nervous breakdown but is continuing to see patients. Segel talks about what he's learned about psychotherapy and himself playing a therapist. Also, Lisa Kudrow. She's nominated for two Emmy Awards for the final season of the HBO comedy The Comeback, which she co-created. Lisa is best known as Phoebe on Friends. But long before that, she was performing as a kid for the people around her. Speaker 3 (1:02) I imitated Lily Tomlin, Edith Ann, that character on Laugh-In. I'd go to slumber parties, and to me it was like doing a show. And then lip sync songs, and then have everyone do it. I was like a cruise director. Speaker 4 (1:15) And book critic Maureen Corrigan has a late summer gift for us, three new suspense novels. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. Speaker 7 (1:25) This season on Planet Money Summer School, we have drilled for oil in Norway, we've smuggled products into North Korea, and now we make it to our seventh continent, Antarctica. Speaker 8 (1:36) That's right. Speak Speaker 1 (1:37) for me. Speaker 8 (1:38) Mr. Penguin, speak for me. That's another Speaker 7 (1:39) sound of Antarctica. That's a reporter trying to interview a penguin. We'll explain on Planet Money Summer School. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 5 (1:49) Six months. That's how long it has been since the U.S. and Israel went to war with Iran. Where are we diplomatically, economically, militarily? Speaker 7 (1:59) There's a lot changing in the shadow of this uncertainty about what happens with Iran. Speaker 5 (2:04) That and more of the week's big national security news on sources and methods. You can listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 7 (2:13) If you're a super fan of Fresh Air with Terry Gross, we have exciting news. WHYY has launched a Fresh Air Society, a leadership group dedicated to ensuring fresh air's legacy. For over 50 years, this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors, artists, actors, and more. As a member of the Fresh Air Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition. Learn more at whyy.org slash fresh air society. Speaker 4 (2:41) This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry has our first interview. Here she is. Speaker 1 (2:47) My guest Jason Segel is nominated for an Emmy for his leading role in the series Shrinking. The first three seasons are streaming on Apple TV. When we first meet his character Jimmy, he's a psychotherapist who's having a nervous breakdown but continues to work with his patients. Believing he's having a breakthrough as a therapist, he intervenes in his patients' lives. He gives them inappropriate advice to do things Jimmy believes will change their lives for the better and prevent them from complaining about the same things week after week without ever making an effort to fix the problems. The reason Jimmy is falling apart is that his wife was killed in a car accident a year ago. His teenage daughter is in high school when the series starts. She accuses him of being so absorbed in his own grief, he's emotionally abandoned her instead of helping her through her grief. Jimmy's mentor and colleague is played by Harrison Ford, who's also nominated for an Emmy, as is co-star Jessica Williams. Siegel got his first memorable role in Freaks and Geeks. The characters were high school friends. After the show was canceled, Siegel wrote and starred in the film Forgetting Sarah Marshall. He wrote and was the human star of the movie musical The Muppets. He was one of the stars of How I Met Your Mother, played writer David Foster Wallace in the film The End of the Tour, and wrote and starred in the series Dispatches from Elsewhere. Let's start with a scene from the first episode of Shrinking. It will give you an idea of how Siegel's character has lost his bearings as a therapist and is pushing his patients to do what he thinks they need to do to move forward. Here he is with his patient, Grace, played by Heidi Gardner. Speaker 7 (4:27) He just kept on going on and on about how dumb I am. You're not dumb, Grace. He said if it weren't for my great s***, no one would want to take care of me, so that's almost nice. It's Speaker 8 (4:37) not nice. Speaker 7 (4:38) I know, but... He loves me. Speaker 8 (4:41) Grace, we've been doing this for two years. Two years of your life. I have never seen a guy tell a woman that she is dumb and lucky she has great d***s and thought to myself, wow, they must really be in love. And he keeps telling me how great he is. Well, I saw him. He's not that great. His muscles are too big. His shirts are too tight. Nobody likes that. It's gross. Speaker 7 (5:01) I am sorry. I don't know what's happening because I was talking and... Grace, Speaker 8 (5:05) your husband is emotionally abusive. He's not working on it. He doesn't intend to. He's made you think it's all you deserve. It's not. Just leave him. It's Speaker 7 (5:17) not that easy. It is that easy. Speaker 8 (5:20) You don't have any kids. Just go to your sister's in Vancouver. Speaker 7 (5:25) But then... Speaker 8 (5:27) Leave him or I'm done being your therapist. Speaker 1 (5:37) Look. Okay? Okay. Speaker 1 (5:43) Jason Siegel, welcome back to Fresh Air and congratulations on the Emmy nomination and on the series. So I should say the outcome does not go well. Speaker 2 (5:53) It depends on how you look at it. It's good to talk to you again, by the way. I was saying to you in our little pre-interview session, you're one of my very first interviews when I was a little guy, I mean, in my early 20s, and it's so nice to be talking to you again. Speaker 1 (6:06) Oh, it's a pleasure to have you back. We also talked about the Muppets movie. That was a lot of fun. Speaker 2 (6:11) Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. First Speaker 1 (6:13) of all, what should Jimmy have done? What do you think? Speaker 2 (6:17) Well, it's an interesting thing because this is the extreme example of this kind of therapy method that the show is based on, this group of therapists who kind of broke convention and realized that people were spending a lot of time week after week. rehashing where things came from in their past. And in reality, what they really needed was some hope about what to do on Tuesday. You know, it's like. I have to have this talk with my boss on Tuesday and I have all these feelings about it. And you're spending week after week figuring out why you have feelings about authority figures. But Tuesday is coming, you know. And so this group of therapists decided that they were going to kind of change the rules a bit. Tell people what to do on Tuesday. And then in the meantime, we will get to figuring out why you had such a hard time figuring it out. And so this is the beginning of that approach to therapy that we see, you know, as the show progresses of, you know, people really just want to be told what to do to some extent. We can figure out the why of it all, but. What am I supposed to do about my abusive husband? What am I supposed to do about, you know, my work situation? Speaker 1 (7:36) Who are these therapists that you're talking about? Speaker 2 (7:40) One of them is Phil Stutz, who there is a documentary about. And he has a whole web of people that, you know, that he trained and works with, a big group of therapists who all have the same idea that what people really want is some hope. And if you can send a patient out of the room. with some hope and some direction, they're much more likely to come back and they're much more likely to affect change in their life. Speaker 1 (8:03) Did you participate in that kind of therapy? Speaker 2 (8:06) Listen, one of these guys has become my actual therapist and it totally changed my life. He's absolutely incredible. And I had done therapy throughout my life. And, you know, like they said, I had spent a lot of time talking about the same stuff from my childhood or this or that. to finally be given some direction about, hey, next time this happens, this is what I want you to do. Sometimes as reductive as like, I want you to say this sentence next time this person does this. And all of a sudden your life starts operating more smoothly and then you start to pick up the why of it all. As a matter of fact, the last lines of this season that we just finished that aired season three, Speaker 2 (8:53) Jimmy finally gets to the dirty underneath of why he can't move forward. This idea of who would want me now? You know, I'm all covered in scars. That came from a real therapy session I had with Barry, where I had to show up to this thing where I was going to be around somebody who I had kind of come up with. And I've had a twisty-turny life and some rocky moments. And this guy I was going to see had just worn it all a lot more lightly than I had. And I was talking to my therapist, Barry, about it. And I said, you know, I think I feel a little bit embarrassed. I feel embarrassed to walk into this room. And he has worn it all so lightly and I'm showing up covered in scars. And without missing a beat, he said, what a shame it would be to show up anywhere at 45 years old, not covered in scars. Speaker 1 (9:43) Isn't that what Harrison Ford says? I Speaker 2 (9:45) got off the phone with my therapist. I called the writer's room and I said, guys, this is how this ends. Speaker 1 (9:54) That's so interesting. Speaker 2 (9:56) Yeah. That moment released so much personal, whatever you would call it, shame, embarrassment about that I've lived a complicated life. And the beauty of doing shrinking is when people come up to you, it's not like I love this joke or I love the Dracula puppet musical. These are all things that I'm really proud of. But people come up for shrinking and they say, hey. I was going through X, Y, Z, and something that you guys talked about on there really helped me. I've had a lot of people come up and say, like, that thing about scars really stuck with me. It's a sign of a life fully lived, you know? Speaker 1 (10:32) No, absolutely. That stuck with me, too. I've heard you say that, at least when you were younger, and I don't know how it is now, you had trouble making decisions. And I'm wondering if that relates to how much you like... this form of therapy where somebody suggests what you should do. Speaker 2 (10:50) One of the things that I've come to realize getting to know myself for this long is I seem to have like the wrong size computer for my needs. Speaker 8 (11:00) You know, it's Speaker 2 (11:01) like, it's just crunching numbers and scenarios. Instead of letting me settle in and enjoy my life. And it's been that way since I'm really young. I was a kind of emo, emotional kid. And every decision felt so weighty. And I think that it has been very beneficial to my work because I seem to feel things like 1.5 times the normal amount. But it has been kind of stifling in my personal life. And so, yes, I think having somebody simplify. the equation has been a really helpful thing. I will say like, and I have throughout my past been kind of hesitant to talk about like personal life stuff, but I'm getting married this year. And my fiancee, thank you so much. My fiancee does a very similar thing for me. She is a