Actor Jon Bernthal on grit, dedication & the teacher who saved him

Fresh Air

Actor Jon Bernthal discusses his journey from a troubled youth in Washington, D.C., to a respected actor known for roles like The Punisher and

Key takeaways

• Jon Bernthal's near-fatal incident in 2009 led him to commit to a life of service, sobriety, and dedication to his craft.
• Bernthal's time at the Moscow Art Theater School was transformative, exposing him to rigorous training and the harsh realities of life in Russia.

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. My guest today, John Bernthal, has spent two decades playing the kind of men you'd want to avoid. And somehow he makes you root for them anyway. This summer, he's in two major films, reprising his role as The Punisher in the upcoming Spider-Man movie and starring in Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. His breakout role in 2010 was as Shane on the Walking Dead, a sheriff's deputy protecting a band of survivors from zombies. until he becomes the greater threat. He won an Emmy as Mikey, the brother whose ghost haunts every episode of the bear, and this year he starred in the Netflix hit series His and Hers and appeared on Broadway and Dog Day Afternoon. Bernthal says he couldn't have predicted any of this. He grew up in Washington, D.C., a baseball player, better known for fighting than acting, and by his own telling, he was a kid headed in the wrong direction. An acting teacher saw something in him and sent him of all places to one of the world's toughest classical theater conservatories in Russia. He returned transformed, co-founded a theater company, performed in dozens of stage productions, and spent years grinding through sitcom guest spots and small film roles before his break finally came. In The Odyssey, Bernthal makes his Christopher Nolan film debut, playing Menelaus, King of Sparta. A few weeks into production, in the Moroccan desert, the cast shot the Trojan horse sequence, one of the film's most iconic scenes. Matt Damon's character and more than a dozen warriors cram inside the belly of the horse waiting to invade Troy. The horse sits partially submerged, and Bernthal draws the short straw, neck deep, treading and freezing water that was supposed to be heated. And word has it, as Bernthal stood there shivering, Nolan all. offered to pull him out, but he refused. John Bernthal, welcome to fresh air. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor. Why did you refuse to get out of that cold freezing water? Oh, boy, I don't feel like I drove the short straw at all. I think any time, you know, that you really care about something or you believe in something, if you have the opportunity to sort of be the one to say, send me first, let me show you what I can do. I feel like our grit and our dedication is the one thing that we have control of in this world. And I love doing this. I love that I got to work for Chris and with Chris. And if he wanted to send somebody, I wanted to be that first one for sure. I think that's, you know, I would jump at that again. It's interesting, Matt Damon said you pushing through that uncomfortable moment. I mean, like really, because it was the hardest role. he said he's ever played just physically. And so to see you sit in that uncomfortable situation actually pushed him to push through his discomfort. Tell us a little bit about that character and the significance of you being submerged in that water for all of that time. Look, you know, so kind of Matt to say that, but like I said, I really wouldn't have had it any other way. You know, when you look at that film and the experience for the folks that made it, I remember, my first day arriving there, just seeing the look in his eyes. He's a guy I know. He's a guy that I respect deeply. Yeah, for sure. And just, you know, the first words he said to me when I saw him on this beach with thousands of extras in Morocco right after traveling across the world, he just said, John, I've never seen anything like this before. I said, me too, man, but if you haven't seen it, well, no one has. And I thought that on this film specifically, you know, there was a group of men that were Odysseus's men that were in this journey throughout the whole piece. A lot of them, you know, we're in the background. A lot of them didn't take their helmets off for the majority of the picture. But I feel that that group of people really was the backbone of the film performance-wise. They add so much. They bring so much. And every day they are grinding and grinding and grinding. And what I was so grateful for is that I really got to be a part of that group for the first month and a half. And I've been in that group in a few other films. And I know what that's like. And a lot of times you're sort of in that group or you're not in that group. And if you come in sort of like I did where you have a few scenes, you're usually not a part of that group. But I was so inspired by them. And to be sort of a soldier of the story and to be a grunt of the story is such an honor. Well, you have had quite a busy few years. And the other film that's coming out this summer is Spider-Man. I have yet to see it. I'm going to see it tonight. So it's crazy that I have. Wait, you said you too. Yeah, yeah, I'm seeing it tonight too. Yeah. So you haven't seen it fully yet? No. Okay, so you've played Frank Castle for 10 years, and you've been pretty protective of this particular role. Like you take up for him and all of his shortcomings as well. And you're bringing him to this Spider-Man film, rated for children. What did you, or did you negotiate or refuse to let them soften when it comes to the Punisher in particular for this movie? Yeah, look, I think historically this is a character, you know, for the folks that don't know, it's a character whose family was killed in a shootout between various criminal figures from the underworld and his family and children were taken from him right when he got back from fighting overseas. He's a Force Recon Marine and in our version, a Marine Raider. And it brings up so many issues. but I think beyond just sort of the spiraling, reeling loss of his family and how he's reacting to that, we've really sort of delved into issues of PTSD and traumatic brain injury and the feeling with so many vets who come home, guys who are tip of the spear vets who really feel lost and wayward and don't know what to do next. And, you know, look, I think I've said before, I was quite trepidatious and hesitant about getting into the superhero world. It wasn't something that I was looking to do. It wasn't something that I sought out. How come? You know, for a few reasons, I think, you know, the guys, the folks that I've respected the most in acting a lot of my heroes, not that I respect the most, but many of them never went that way. And I think times have definitely changed, but, you know, to have superpowers or to fly through the air, I just, that just never, I think the characters I'm really interested in are enormously grounded. I try to make them and I try to find things about them that I can deeply relate to or they take me down a path that scares me intensely. And so I have to go sort of explore that path. And with the Punisher in particular. Yeah, look, I've said before, there's no way that I could begin to take on that character if I wasn't a husband and a father first, first and foremost, and to fully. and palpably understand, you know, the feeling of loving people on this earth and happily give my life for these people on my earth, how would it feel that these people were taken from me? And so I always want Frank to live there. And he's not a character looking for the light. He's not a character looking for things to get easier or for things to get better. And yet he's a human being. And I think all the time with my, you know, the roles that I play, I love opportunities. to turn my back on the audience. And I love to sort of take it too far to try to push myself to a place or push the audience to a place where they can no longer be with this character, but then try to win them back through showing the fragility of their heart, showing how brokenhearted they are, showing how much pain they have, because I do think pain is a real adhesive, and I think it's the thing that really connects all of us. So fascinating, John, because it's true that pain is the thing, but most human beings don't want to face that. We kind of live our lives avoiding it and then dealing with it when we have to. But you in particular seem to run towards it in every way, both physically and mentally. And your toughness has a history. You grew up in Washington, D.C., one of three brothers. You went to Sidwell Friends, the Quaker School, where presidents have sent their children. It's kind of a place known for nonviolence and peace, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And by your own telling, here you were in this school in fights and always chasing the most dangerous thing in the room, it seems. What did that look like? Yeah, I think never fighting in school ever, you know, and I really think that sort of the values of that school were really ingrained in me, even if it took me years and years for them to sort of come out and really come to fruition and to really understand and believe in them. But there's no question that, you know, when I was a young, scared, confused man, that I did. I would run towards the most wild, the most dangerous, the craziest situations. What do you think it was that you were attracted to about it? I think for so many young men, it's about fear. It's about fear and it's about shame. There's a wonderful book that has meant so much to me. And I really suggest everybody who read it, but especially I think young men, There's a book named Towney by Andre Dubu the Third. It's incredible memoir, but it really sort of tells the story about how fear and shame, you know, can kind of lead to violence and how we sometimes become the very thing that we're scared of. And I do have a real relationship, I think, with danger, that I have been in some situations that, you know, could have gone many ways. And I think to a certain point, I think that that's really important. I also am so grateful that I'm so far past that now and so far beyond that now. And that mostly that I found this work that all of the reckless abandon and sort of wild things that I got into as a young man, I can bring that same energy into my work. And hopefully I can bring these kinds of folks. I can bring a real humanity to these kinds of folks. and through that same sort of reckless abandonment and wildness. And I think that that is, that's my favorite way of working. So you're a young man and you are in this school where you're learning all these wonderful things about conflict resolution. I heard you talk about there's this Quaker ritual where you all would sit in silence. And then when you had something that you needed to say, you could say it. Can you describe that? Sure. I mean, it's, you know, the way that Quakers worship is so beautiful. And, you know, there's no hierarchy in that religion. There's no priests. There's no rabbis. There's no ministers. There's just this fundamental belief that there's that of God and everyone. And that's something, again, that at the time, you know, I looked at those meeting for worships as just a time to either sleep or look at girls or,