How to Be a Double Unicorn, with John Urschel | Better in Person
Freakonomics Radio
John Urschel, a former NFL offensive lineman who now teaches mathematics at MIT, shares his unique journey of excelling in two vastly differ
Key takeaways
- Urschel's success in both football and mathematics stemmed from discipline, hard work, and an intrinsic love for problem-solving rather than innate talent alone.
Main topics
- Balancing elite performance in sports and academia
- The influence of family background on career choices
Notable quotes
"I am the son of a pretty good college football player... who also became a thoracic surgeon."
"You're not making a single set out of, not even, like, some money towards a 401k or something."
Conclusion
John Urschel's story illustrates that excellence in multiple domains is possible
Transcript preview
Speaker 2 (0:00) This episode of Better in Person is presented by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today. Speaker 2 (0:12) Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner, and this is a bonus episode that we are calling How to Be a Double Unicorn. It comes from our new video talk show, which is called Better in Person, and the guest is John Urschel, a former NFL lineman who now teaches math at MIT. John is one of my very favorite people, and I think you will like him too. To watch this episode, go to the Freakonomics YouTube channel. or search for Better in Person on Apple Podcasts. The entire first season of the show has now been published, so go ahead, binge. As always, thanks for listening. So you'd never open a math book on the Ravens facility? No, no, never. Because you're busy doing football? I'm Speaker 1 (0:58) busy doing football. Speaker 2 (1:03) This is Better in Person with Stephen Dubner and John Urschel. A lot of us spend our lives trying to find the one big thing we're really good at. John Urschel had a slightly different problem. He turned out to be world-class at two things, two very different things, football and math. One path led to the NFL, the other to MIT. Eventually, he had to make a choice. Speaker 1 (1:28) I am the son of a... pretty good college football player. This is your dad. Yes, my dad. Who also became a thoracic surgeon. Yes. And not only did he become a thoracic surgeon, he, while in college, playing college football, was in medical school. Some of these universities have these programs where, you know, they really accelerate people to med school. You know, you do two years and then straight into med school. He did exactly this. Where did he play football? University of Alberta. Oh. So he's Canadian, I'm Canadian. So my mom and dad have me. I was born in Canada. They move to Buffalo for my dad's work. And then eventually my dad moves back to Canada. Got it. And you stay in Buffalo with Speaker 2 (2:09) your mom. Speaker 1 (2:09) And I stay in Buffalo. But I would visit my dad all the time. And he's working as a thoracic surgeon. He's a really busy person. He would pick me up. He would take me to the hospital. He would do his rounds. He would let me look around on his computer. And then after he would do his rounds, he would take me to the local chapters. And he would be in the cafe. He would just be working. You're Speaker 2 (2:30) how old at this point? Speaker 1 (2:32) Eight or nine. What are you reading? What are you doing? I'm looking at all different types of books. I'm just sitting and reading books, exploring. And I find myself just mostly hanging out in the math section. And I'm just opening up things and picking up things that I have no business picking up. Did that strike you as unusual? No, it was fun. I don't know. I'm here four or five hours every second Saturday. I am in elementary school, but this is fun. And I know you liked puzzles from the time you were very young. Right. So this is the other section I would spend a lot of time in. It's the puzzle section. You Speaker 2 (3:04) know, we asked you to bring something for show and tell. Yes. Speaker 1 (3:07) You brought this book. The big book of Tell Me Why. So this is something my mom bought for me. I noticed there's like a big boot Speaker 2 (3:16) print here and coffee stains there. You think that's your mom or your dad or you think that's you? Speaker 1 (3:21) No, so this is because this would go in the trunk. Just so that you'd always have it with you when you're? Well, around, let's say, third grade. Okay. So my mom is working as an attorney. Yeah. And she has a lot of night court. She went to law school very late in life. And my grandmother had died the year before. So we're without childcare. So now she's taking me places. So she has night court, and she doesn't think I'm quite old enough to stay at home. She did leave me at home a bit, but I don't think it went too well. I mean, were you lighting fires, things like that? No, just like a little bit of chaos. Maybe the bathtub gets too full, things like this. And so she would always have this in the trunk, and then she would just sit me in the last row of the courtroom. And she would just give me the book. There for hours, I would look at this. Sometimes I would do puzzle books, but this was like the stalwart. Maybe look through the book and tell me a couple things that you recall being intriguing to you. Right, yes. So chapter five, how things are Speaker 2 (4:19) made. Speaker 1 (4:20) Yeah. And that was one I really liked. A striking one, it must be in here somewhere, is how does a mirror work? Ah. And I mean, I'm sure it's Speaker 2 (4:28) - Speaker 1 (4:28) Yeah, how does a mirror work? So it's all about light and reflections and- angle of reflection and angle of incidence. And did that feel like math to you as a kid? No, it just felt really cool. I never viewed the things I really liked, this is going to sound very strange, as explicitly math until I got to college. But you loved football. I loved football. And when I was a kid, my dream was to be an offensive lineman in the Big Ten. Wow. Like I grew up watching like Jake Long and I, you know, I wanted to be the left tackle for Michigan. Because, okay, I played tackle in high school. And, you know, there's a star system coming out of high school. I was a two-star recruit. The scale is out of five. And so I'm like two out of five. So somehow being like an all-Big Ten, all-American offensive lineman at Penn State, this is just like the dream come true. But you chose to go to a football school rather Speaker 2 (5:20) than, like you were, you had a chance to go to Stanford, but you'd already committed to Penn State. Yeah, yeah, Speaker 1 (5:25) exactly. And at the time. And your mom wanted that? My mom wanted me to go to Stanford. And at the time, I had like this very strong sense of honor, which. You don't have it anymore, you're saying? I mean, I think it was probably misplaced. Like, I'm not sure it was deserved. But at the time, I had this really strong sense of, you know, like. Meaning Speaker 2 (5:44) I've committed to Penn State. I Speaker 1 (5:46) have committed to Penn State. I'm sorry, you know, you know, John Harbaugh calls me to come visit Stanford. And, you know, for me, and I say, you know, I'm sorry, coach. I've already committed to Penn State. And he says, oh, that's okay. You can still just come and, you know, see how things are. And I say, no, coach, you know, I've really, I've already committed. I've given my word, like, you know. Speaker 2 (6:06) Paterno was your coach for your first year or two? My first three. First three years. Okay. And then he's gone. And then what's the program like in your fourth Speaker 1 (6:14) year as your senior there? Very different. Who's your coach? Bill O'Brien. Right? Okay. Yeah. Turned out to be a really good coach. Turned out to be a really good coach, although he's suffering quite badly at Boston College right now. Although I think it's hard to win there, especially in the current NIL. So NIL is name image likeness, which is the Speaker 2 (6:34) way for college athletes now to get paid, essentially. Yes. Speaker 1 (6:38) I remember when I played, you could not make a dime. You couldn't take a free hamburger. You couldn't take a free hamburger. And really at Penn State, they were really honest about this. I mean, Paterno was very, very serious about this. And so this was legitimate. And so when you're Speaker 2 (6:57) in that environment where you can't take it, does it feel like you're in a, not like a religious order in the military, but like, what does it feel like to be that Speaker 1 (7:04) constricted? I mean, it's a tough, it's a touch strict. And I think it was too strict before. I mean, for instance, you know, I was at Penn State and not that I have any complaints about it. But I remember, like, you know, my face is on, like, banners downtown. I'm doing all these things. There's other players whose jerseys, I mean, my jersey didn't sell so well. I'm an offensive lineman. There are other players whose jerseys are just, you know, everywhere. And, you know, we are not, you're not making a single set out of, not even, like. some money towards a 401k or something. You know what I mean? So name, image, and likeness, objectively a good thing that players can make a little bit of money off of there. Or a lot of money. Or a lot of money. When you started Speaker 2 (7:52) playing at Penn State, let's say, did you think you had a pretty decent chance to make the NFL? Speaker 1 (7:56) No, I thought I had no chance. Speaker 2 (7:57) No chance. When did you start to think you had a chance? Speaker 1 (8:00) My junior year, I'm playing well. I'm an all Big Ten