Thoughts to Keep in Mind #7 • Reading Poetry in the Old Testament • Dr. Ross Baron • August 17-23

followHIM - Hank Smith & John Bytheway

In this episode of 'Thoughts to Keep in Mind,' hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway welcome Dr. Ross Barron to explore the significance and reading approach for poetry in

Key takeaways

• Old Testament poetry—found in books like Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Ecclesiastes, and prophetic writings—is not defined by rhyme or meter but by literary devices such as parallelism, imagery, and symbolism.
• The book of Psalms is the third most quoted Old Testament text in general conference talks and other Church materials, underscoring its centrality to Christ-centered testimony.

Main topics

• Understanding poetic structure in the Old Testament
• The role of Psalms as an ancient hymnbook centered on Christ

Notable quotes

"The book of Psalms is more centered on Jesus Christ and more frequently quoted in the New Testament than any other Old Testament book." – Elder Dale G. Renlund

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" – Psalm 22, quoted by Jesus on the cross.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a call to approach Old Testament poetry with

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:07) Hello, our dear Follow Him friends. We are back again with another episode of Thoughts to Keep in Mind. We have Dr. Ross Barron with us again. This topic today, reading poetry in the Old Testament. Now, years ago, I would have thought, there's no poetry in the Old Testament, because when I think of poetry, I wrote one for today. Would you like to hear it? Forests are green, deserts are barren, Follow Him's blessed to have Dr. Ross Barron. Because that's what I think a poem is. It's got rhyme. It's got meter. I don't think barren rhymes with barren. It's a different spelling. Ah, B-A-R-R-E-N and Speaker 3 (0:49) B Speaker 1 (0:49) -A-R-O-N. I appreciate that. It's got that meter and rhyme. And when I think of poetry, that's what I think of. We're talking about something different when we're talking about poetry in the Old Testament. Is that right? That is correct. I'm honored by that poem, though, John. Thank you. Thank you. The deserts, they will blossom as a rose when you are here. Speaker 2 (1:10) John, I got to teach you how to use AI to write poetry. You don't have to do it yourself anymore. Speaker 3 (1:17) Hey, Chad, write me a poem about Rosemary. I did do an AI poem for my wife. And I don't think I disclosed it. And she was like, I'm so touched. This is so nice. She's crying. Oh, no. Anyway, then I, of course, came clean and she wasn't super happy. Yeah. You probably start with that. Speaker 2 (1:39) Well, we love Kathleen. Speaker 1 (1:41) Absolutely. Well, I would like to read the opening paragraphs in the thoughts to keep in mind in the manual. Then we'll let Ross take off here. In the Old Testament books of Genesis through Esther, we find mostly stories, narrative accounts that describe historical events from a spiritual perspective. Noah built an ark, Moses delivered Israel, Hannah prayed to have a son, and so on. Beginning with Job, we find a different writing style. In these books, Old Testament writers turn to poetic language to express deep feelings or monumental prophecies in a memorable way. We have already seen a few examples of poetry sprinkled throughout the historical books of the Old Testament. From the book of Job forward, we will see a lot more of it. The books of Job, Psalms, and Proverbs are almost entirely poetry, as are parts of prophetic books like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Amos. Because reading poetry is different from reading a story, understanding it often requires a different approach. Ross, give us some thoughts to help us find meaning in Old Testament poetry. They don't have to rhyme like my intro poem. Speaker 3 (2:50) Yeah, I was going to do the entire podcast in rhyme and meter, but I decided not to. The books of Job, Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes are typically kind of considered the poetic books. Then they even break it down and the intro breaks it down as well. The book of Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes are considered more... what's called wisdom literature, contemplating deep philosophical and theological questions and trying to address those. Whereas Psalms, they brought up Isaiah and Amos as the prophetic books. Maybe Isaiah is the quintessential prophetic prophet in terms of the Old Testament. I wanted to read this from the August, 2026, Liahona. This is Elder Dale G. Renlund. This just came out. Quote, the book of Psalms in the Old Testament served as the ancient hymn book for God's covenant people. The book of Psalms, the ancient hymn book, revealing how they felt about Jehovah and their relationship with him. Continuing. At its core, the book of Psalms is more centered on Jesus Christ and more frequently quoted in the New Testament than any other Old Testament book. The attributes of Jesus Christ, specifically his mercy and grace, are repeatedly emphasized, unquote. The book of Psalms is probably the most poetic, and Isaiah. Proverbs classically are what we call aphorisms, like wise sayings. Ecclesiastes is poetic, dealing with rich images and asking some very hard questions. The book of Job has a narrative section. The first couple of chapters in the last chapter are narrative, but the whole middle part is like one long Hebrew poetic thing going back and forth between Job and these three, I'll put it in quotes, friends. Speaker 3 (4:55) In the Latter-day Saint Citation Index, which you know I love, which is scriptures.byu.edu, it links scriptures to general conference talks, journal of discourses, the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. It also can tell you at a glance, what are the most quoted books of any book? I thought, okay, I'm going to look for Old Testament. By general authorities, in general conference talks, journal of discourses, the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The number one most quoted from the Old Testament, the book of Isaiah. which I guess wouldn't surprise most. Then the next one is the book of Genesis. And the third one, the book of Psalms. That actually surprised me. Isaiah is number one, then the book of Genesis, then Psalms. We know that Nephi and 2 Nephi 11 will say that Jesus was seen by Nephi, Jacob, and Isaiah, three eyewitnesses. That's one of the reasons Nephi wants to quote. Isaiah so significantly and so extensively is because he's a witness of Jesus Christ. I think Isaiah, how appropriate that would be the number one quoted. Genesis, which lays the foundation for the Abrahamic covenant, which all points to Jesus Christ, which also has Joseph, who was sold into Egypt as a type of Christ, is the second quoted. At its core, the book of Psalms is more centered on Jesus Christ than any other Old Testament book. What a powerful thing that prophets and apostles are quoting from Isaiah, Genesis, and Psalms, which all point to Jesus Christ. I thought that was pretty fun, pretty interesting. Speaker 1 (6:35) Four years ago, when we went through this, for me, one of the aha moments was to look at some of the key moments of the Savior going through the events of his atoning sacrifice and to look at Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53. and go, wow, wow, wow, wow, look at all these connections. When you said that those were the most quoted from the Old Testament, or Isaiah number one, Psalms number three, I thought, yeah, that's the central event, the atoning sacrifice. I don't know. And just read those Psalms that starts, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? You're like, whoa, here's Jesus quoting the hymn book from Gethsemane and from the cross. No, that's beautiful. Speaker 3 (7:18) The other interesting thing that I want to bring up, the Psalms 113 through 118 are, they believe, the songs they would have sung at the Passover. Psalm 113 through 118, the Hallel. is considered what they would have sung. They would have sung Psalms 113 and 114 before the major part of the meal, and then 115 through 118 after the meal. And then they sang a hymn before they went to Gethsemane, according to Matthew. In all likelihood, that was Psalms 115, 16, 17, 18, or some portion thereof. The other interesting thing that we should be aware of is that Two of the quotes that Jesus and the gospel writers bring up are from those passages in 118. One is the stone that the builders have rejected has become the chief cornerstone. That's Psalm 118. And the triumphal entry, blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. That's Psalm 118. That gets repeated not only at the triumphal entry, but also when Jesus is talking to them saying, We're not drinking wine until you say, blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. He's tapping into these ancient covenant hymns. It resonates with them, maybe like it doesn't resonate with us because we're not as familiar with the book of Psalms. When you were talking about Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, I also think we should remember Psalms 113 through 118. All the Jews at the time would have known those intimately because it was done at every Passover. Speaker 1 (8:57) I thought of another one too. Isn't it true that during the Feast of Tabernacles, when they would bring water from the Pool of Siloam up to the temple, that they sang the psalm that says, draw water from the wells of salvation or something, and they would sing these songs about water. And that's set up Jesus perfectly to say, actually, if you come to me, this is where you'll find living water. That's excellent. I wanted Speaker 3 (9:24) to start with What can we do? Somebody's listening and they're not resonating with this. I like what you said, Hank. You can get some really nice bumper sticker, like great quotes, like boom, a soundbite here, a soundbite there. I think this is a suggestion for our church scripture study in general. Number one, read more slowly. Sometimes we feel this obligation. Have you ever walked into a gospel doctrine class? Today, we're going to study Jeremiah 1 through 45. We're not studying it. We're water skiing over the top. We're not doing anything close to that. One of the things that I've done in my family as a dad for a lot of years is I've slowed down. It's okay that we don't get through the chapter. If we're having a great discussion, it's okay. When you're reading the Psalms or the book of Job or Ecclesiastes or Proverbs or Isaiah, it's okay if we read more slowly. That is something we could all do. I'm going to try to model some of that here today as we study this. Number two, it's very interesting to read things out loud. Now, I know we're taking Hebrew and translating it into English, but Even the Hebrew, the English, you can get some rhythm and you get a sound. You get to hear the repetition. Reading it out loud can be kind of fun and actually is a fun family exercise to do, especially if you've pre-looked at the chapter and you're like, oh, there's some really cool things that are going to jump out. Let's read it a little slow. Let's read it out loud. It's really powerful to do with. young children, children, teenagers, and adults. Third one, with the new app we have, I think most people realize you can literally tap on a word and then say define. I always say, look up unfamiliar words and references. It's going to say some funky thing and people are going to be like, I don't know what that means. It's okay. You can just press on the word now and hit define, and it's going to pull up a definition. It's a very, very insightful way to give you some latitude to now be able to talk about those words and not have to be, we don't know what that word means. And I don't want to go look at a dictionary. It's just right there. We're going to read slow. We can read out loud. Sometimes I'm not sure we want to do that all the time. We're going to look up unfamiliar words and references. I want to identify images and symbols. Sometimes we've got to flat out say, this is a symbol. One of the things I wanted to do today, which I love to do in class, when I teach First Nephi 8, which you guys have all done so many times, a lot of times the students we have, especially the university level, they've already done the exercise where here's the symbol and what does it stand for? So mists of darkness is the temptations of the devil. They've done that multiple times. But I like to say, why do you think the symbol mists of darkness? is used for temptations for the devil. Why that symbol? How does that help us understand temptation? In what ways are we given insight so that we can overcome temptation once we know it's that? The beautiful thing about that is you can have a great conversation with lots of different insights. There's no one right answer. It's a very fun way to approach. When we're reading the Psalms, And we have symbols and we have images. It's fun to say, okay, why that image? What is it about that image that helps me understand Jesus and his plan, his atonement better? In summary, we're going to read a little more slowly. We can read it out loud. We can look for unfamiliar words and define them. Then we can talk about symbols. Again, we've got to slow down. Why that symbol? Then I like to look at it this way. I'm going to be open here. I sometimes look at poetry like it's a math problem. Like I got to figure it out. When it's probably more like looking at art, where you're reflecting on it, you're observing it. It's an evoking a response in you that might be different than the way someone else is looking at it. Then we can have a conversation. I've approached poetry in the past and even Old Testament poetry a bit like a math problem. I got to figure this out. There is a right answer. When in fact, there's probably multiple ways to Speaker 2 (14:05) let it speak to you. I remember reading an article that if someone goes to like an art museum, the average time they spend looking at a piece of art is something like 25 seconds. I kept reading that some art teachers will do like a slow art day where they're like, all right, 10 minutes. right in front of this painting, 10 minutes. And it sounds like if you're advocating the same thing, slow down. And here's a piece Speaker 1 (14:35) of art that somebody probably spent months producing and we're going to grasp all of it, even 10 seconds. That's a great analogy. You know how hard they worked on the light and the shadow and where it's dark and where it's light and what's the focus. Take five seconds. Yeah, that was nice. That was great. Speaker 2 (14:53) Great Speaker 1 (14:54) job. Speaker 3 (14:56) And it's not a math problem. Most of the time, the point of poetry, the point of Hebrew Old Testament prophetic poetry is to actually instill within us, let the spirit help us in our particular circumstance at our life point, understand what God wants to say to us. Sometimes we want to say the mist of darkness equals the temptation of the devil, which it does. There is a right answer. But then to say why? Did he use that symbol? Now we can have a really fun, open discussion and people can feel safe not having to say, I'm afraid I don't have the right answer. Speaker 2 (15:35) Ross, I think you and William Tyndale have a lot in common. I've been told that multiple times. William Tyndale, I mean, how much does that guy love scripture? Oh, my word, yes. If you don't know who he is, he gave his life for scripture. Though we read scripture and babble of it ever so much, yet if we know not the use of it, and wherefore it was given, and what therein is to be sought, it profiteth us nothing at all. Now listen to this. It is not enough, therefore, to read and talk of it only, but we must also desire God day and night to open our eyes to make us understand and feel why the scripture was given, that we may apply the medicine of the scripture to our own sores. As thou readest, therefore, think that every syllable pertaineth to thine own self. How is that? Well, that's Speaker 1 (16:40) something else. I think that argues for the idea, Hank. I'm so glad you brought that up because I was literally thinking about who translated these, how much King James borrowed from Tyndale, and how much they must have poured over what they were looking at in the ancient languages. How do you do justice to that? I would think that would be such a daunting task. How in the world do I keep... all the things we're talking about here and allow for people to think about it. Like you just said, Ross, do you run through Moses 139? That is an earth-shaking, heart-stopping, wonderful verse, but we can read too fast. Like you said, Ross, okay, I'm going to read a chapter or night. Yeah, exactly. Speaker 3 (17:27) By the way, I'm not opposed to somebody who says, you know, I got to get the lay of the land. I always tell them, have you ever read the Book of Mormon cover to cover? No. Okay, just read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. Get the lay of the land. But then when you go back, you don't have to read fast. You don't have to read a ton. Howard W. Hunter has this great quote where he said, you could spend profitably 30 minutes to an hour and not read a lot. I think the Tyndale quote is where you're going to get this depth. talk to people that may be struggling in their lives or having some concerns. And I'll say, tell me about your scripture study. And they'll talk a little bit about it. And I'll say, just let the word of God wash over you. And they'll be like, what? I'm back to my math problem. So sometimes we're reading scriptures because we want to create a doctrinal diagram. I just said, let the word of God heal you. Let it wash over you. Take your time. The follow-up I've had on that, people have been back, wow, I had a session this morning where I read the word of God. I felt such peace. That's beautiful. That's so good. Take your time. So Hebrew poetry. Now, we've already pounded home the point that it doesn't rhyme like John, by the way's opening poem, which didn't technically rhyme either. You Speaker 1 (18:49) had to kind of see it. And then you saw that. There's a different kind of barren. And so, Hank, I think we should all step back and wonder, why did John use that example of forests are green? Speaker 3 (19:01) What can that teach us? Because you spent so much time Speaker 1 (19:05) on it, we should spend Speaker 3 (19:06) that equal amount Speaker 1 (19:07) of time. I spent up to half a minute on that poem. Speaker 3 (19:12) I want to say this, and this is really important, that the chief may be characteristic of Hebrew poetry. is a thing called parallelism. In fact, the introduction there on thoughts to keep in mind in the Come Follow Me manual talks about parallelism. The idea is that one line in the sentence, in the verse, is then going to have a parallel to the next line. They're going to reflect on each other and we can learn so much. Now, the way our verses are laid out, Sometimes we think we're reading narrative even though it's poetic. It's poetic parallelism. Parallelism is the defining feature of Hebrew poetry. Let me give a couple other ones. There's imagery and figurative language, which we're going to talk about. We've already