Tim Walker

Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud

In this episode of Fashion Neurosis, host Bella Freud sits down with celebrated English photographer Tim Walker for an intimate conversation about his career, creative philosophy,

Key takeaways

• Tim Walker identifies as a fantasy photographer rather than a traditional fashion photographer, feeling he never fully grasped the technical mandate to simply photograph clothes.
• Walker credits set designer Shona Heath with guiding his artistic maturation, teaching him to find beauty in darkness and move from childlike innocence to adolescent exploration.

Main topics

• Fantasy vs. Fashion Photography
• Ageism and Aging in the Industry

Notable quotes

"I'm interested, I'd say beyond beauty, I'm just interested in extremity in life."

Conclusion

The episode offers a deeply reflective look at how Walker's personal growth, collaborations,

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) you Speaker 2 (0:15) Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Tim Walker. Speaker 1 (0:19) Thank you very much Bella. So it's an honour to be lying here with all the people that have lain here before, those that have come before. Very special and very, very flattered. Thank you for asking me. Speaker 2 (0:32) Well, the honour is mine. So thank you. And can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes? Speaker 1 (0:43) Well, I knew I was coming here and I thought to myself, Speaker 1 (0:50) I feel like dressing up today. I feel like dressing up for Bella. Speaker 1 (0:56) And my friend Charles Jeffrey is helping me with an outfit for the exhibition opening. And he showed me this suit and said, I think you should take that. And I thought, I'm going to wear that to Bella's because I think of you in a suit. And that's why I'm wearing it. And I'm wearing it with... A belt that I did over, I don't know whether Charles would like that or not, but he would. Because when I was dressing, I heard his voice in my head. And I heard him go, oh, yes, do that. So I put a belt over it. And then I did a red sock. I always wear red socks. But they had a hole in the toe. And I thought, I can't, in case I have to take my shoes off. I don't want people to see I've got a hole in my toe. So I put the white socks on and then I've got these clogs, stompy clogs. And that's what I'm wearing. Speaker 2 (1:54) Where are the clogs from? Are they from Charles Jeffery? No, they're Speaker 1 (1:58) not from Charles. They're from a company called Needles. And they specialize in clogs. But what I love about them is they're kind of berghain, Speaker 2 (2:07) metal Speaker 1 (2:09) -y. Speaker 1 (2:11) clumpy cloggy thing they're Speaker 2 (2:13) quite clockwork orange aren't they really like very aggressive and very aesthetic Speaker 1 (2:20) Oh, we love that reference. How many times have we looked at that? Did you look at that for your collections? Speaker 2 (2:28) I remember I first saw it in Paris because it was illegal to show Clockwork Orange in England for ages. And there was one cinema in Paris that only showed Clockwork Orange. So I went to Paris with a friend when I was 18. We went to see the film and then I... had the album and I used to play that demented music over and over again. And I've never seen it since because it was so... Speaker 2 (2:59) embedded in my sort of you know, some sort of place in my system that keeps music and atmosphere. And it stayed there, the violence of it. But, God, it was so good. Speaker 1 (3:16) It's such an extraordinary film Speaker 2 (3:19) that Speaker 1 (3:19) I go back and look at again and again. Yeah, all the time. Particularly, I think, about what they're wearing. Speaker 2 (3:26) Yeah. that makes the whole thing really and Speaker 1 (3:30) how did they come up with that and why and yeah Speaker 2 (3:32) it's Speaker 1 (3:33) such a sort of Speaker 1 (3:37) unforgettable power in the straight jackets and the white and the bowler hat and everything yeah Speaker 2 (3:42) yeah Speaker 1 (3:43) powerful stuff eh yeah Speaker 2 (3:45) well it's a fantastic suit too it's really Beautiful. And you're one of the most celebrated fashion photographers of our time. And you had a huge show at the V &A in 2019. And you have another big show opening at the National Portrait Gallery. And you shot your first Vogue story at 25 and covers for Italian, British and American Vogue and all the high end magazines. And you shot... Album covers for Harry Styles and Kate Bush even. I mean, that's so amazing. And a Pirelli calendar. And you said, there's an extremity to my interest in beauty. And I wondered, what is extreme beauty to you? I just think... Speaker 1 (4:38) I'm interested, I'd say beyond beauty, I'm just interested in extremity in life. Speaker 1 (4:49) I'm fascinated by extreme places. I'm fascinated by difference, I think. I love difference. So I find seeing the same thing again and again quite disappointing, I suppose. So, yeah, that's what I mean. Extremity is like... I love all the beauty that there is in the world. And I love, it's funny you introducing me as a fashion photographer. Yeah, Speaker 2 (5:21) I'm so glad. Speaker 1 (5:22) I've always sort of felt like a bit of a fraud with that because... Speaker 1 (5:27) I've always felt a bit funny about fashion, I suppose. Um, Wow. It's, it's, um, Speaker 1 (5:37) Because why do I feel funny about fashion? Being called a fashion photographer, I think I was never that good at it. I always felt that I never got the memo about the fact that you have to photograph the clothes. That's Speaker 2 (5:52) what Speaker 1 (5:52) you're there to do. I was always more interested in the fantasy, I suppose. Speaker 1 (5:59) And when I was young, Speaker 1 (6:02) I saw a copy of Italian Vogue that felt like a window into the most extreme fantasy I'd ever seen in my life. And there were a series of photographs by a very celebrated fashion photographer called Peter Lindbergh. Speaker 2 (6:24) And Speaker 1 (6:24) he'd photographed Helena Christensen. with a little alien. And do you remember that story? Speaker 2 (6:32) No. Speaker 1 (6:33) And there are these black and white photographs of Helena Christensen, and she's wearing kind of silver dresses of silver, I vaguely remember. But it's not really about fashion, and it wasn't. And I tore all these pictures out of the magazine. And I pinned them very, very carefully to my school, you know, dormitory wall. And it was about a romance between a woman and a little alien. And they had this little alien, was tiny little thing. And she had a really cool car and she was kind of in love with this alien. And then he had to go home and she was in tears. Speaker 1 (7:14) The this sort of fantasy. Speaker 1 (7:20) in photography is what I think I really related to. I think that story... was the first time I got kind of addicted to making pictures about that power of Speaker 2 (7:34) telling Speaker 1 (7:35) stories. So I've always struggled with fashion. I've always struggled with fashion, full stop. Speaker 1 (7:42) But, um... I've always felt a bit of a fraud because I never thought I did it very well. I never photographed fashion well because I never showed the clothes enough. Speaker 2 (7:52) Maybe that's why you're so good at it because you show aspects. You don't show a conventional fashion photograph, but you show so much more on so many other things and it seems to... work very well for you? Speaker 1 (8:10) I think. Speaker 1 (8:12) A lot of fashion is really ugly and really bad. And it kind of ruined the universes that I was hoping to live in and exist in for that short time when you're making a shoot. And there were very few stylists that I worked with that understood. how to make fashion belong in those little universes. Then I think I did meet fashion designers and work with fashion designers who made clothes. And I thought, now that's really the dog's bollocks. That is like, I want to photograph that. And yeah, so I kind of... have done fashion photography I feel a bit um but I suppose fantasy photography is something that I I relate to that more maybe I don't know I don't know funny thing but I was thinking in the car coming here I bet Bella's gonna ask me about fashion photography and Speaker 2 (9:11) I thought time Speaker 1 (9:13) to fess up after all these years and go it wasn't my biggest love fashion but um it certainly Speaker 1 (9:22) enabled storytelling I think and daydreaming and fantasy of course which is what those yeah Speaker 2 (9:29) Peter Speaker 1 (9:30) Limbaugh pictures did I Speaker 2 (9:31) suppose that's the one of the good things about fashion is that it does is both um dictatorial and liberating in those ways it gives so much fantasy and opportunity to walk down the street and uh and Speaker 1 (9:50) I think that is the point to me Speaker 2 (9:52) fashion Speaker 1 (9:53) you're so right it is so regimented and strict Speaker 1 (10:00) And the other, then it's not. It's completely about just leading your best life and feeling yourself and looking amazing and whoever you are. And I've always, I think that's the aspect of fashion that I love. I love the... when it shows difference and celebrates it and shows the rest of the world how beautiful something is that hasn't really been celebrated I suppose yeah Speaker 2 (10:30) and Speaker 1 (10:30) another thing I was thinking actually is how weird. I saw an old guy, like older than me, and he was like, looked so cool and amazing the other day. I mean, I see them a lot, you know, one does see them a lot. And I just thought, why? It just is so interesting, this concept of youth obsession in the fashion industry and how. I remember I went to a men's fashion show. recently and all the models the men were so young i mean literally like you know younger than jimmy young you're like 15 kind of young and i was like what why Speaker 1 (11:16) That feels to me like one of the great things to explore actually in fashion is age. Maybe because I'm getting older, I don't know. But I just, I look, I'm fascinated by age. Fascinated by it. Speaker 2 (11:30) It's so peculiar because I agree. It's like when you see very young models, particularly boys, it's... There's something as though... You're not allowed to see their personalities. They're just like pieces of spaghetti. But no one is like that. But then also fashion is... fascinated by people who've made things and people who are older and into their careers in a way that maybe wasn't the case, certainly not like in the 50s or the 60s. There was a cut. Everyone sort of had a cut off. And now, even though it is this youth obsession, it's also another, there's another thing that has a real place too of, you know, people. Speaker 2 (12:23) not considered to be young anymore like me you know I mean but Speaker 1 (12:30) you look great you know and I think it's it's such a missed opportunity I just think to to photograph people older people I mean as a portrait photographer of course I've photographed all ages and I Speaker 1 (12:46) I have a lot of theories about... Speaker 1 (12:50) age and bodies and that that doesn't comply with the stricter expectation is what you what you would find in fashion But anyways. Speaker 2 (13:01) I think there's weirdly more discrimination against young people within a certain age bracket that, oh, you're not 21, you're 24. And there's all this ageism. Whereas once you get over 40 or whatever, suddenly there's, oh, that's an interesting, she looks cool or he looks great. Speaker 1 (13:24) So maybe we're in our golden age now. I do think that... you know, age, achieving age, you know, like I'm now 55. I thought, and I really struggled. I don't know what I was doing. I was leaving. Speaker 1 (13:42) my youth in my 40s I think and I really struggled to say goodbye to it because basically I'm a child but um Speaker 1 (13:53) I now feel it's such a privilege to be 55. I really love it. I feel so... Speaker 1 (14:03) I just think that when you get older, this thing you go through of aging and thinking, oh, my God, I'm not young anymore. It's such a – you're living in a great time when you're older because you're there. You're still there. I feel great. I don't feel, I don't actually think I felt better than I feel now. Speaker 2 (14:23) Yeah. I Speaker 1 (14:24) really do feel good. Yeah. Speaker 2 (14:25) I think a lot of people. feel like that too I Speaker 1 (14:29) wasn't I was not a good youngster my god Speaker 2 (14:32) awkward Speaker 1 (14:33) yeah Speaker 2 (14:34) shy Speaker 1 (14:35) I'd never have been able to have done this when I was young yeah Speaker 2 (14:38) it's so interesting no Speaker 1 (14:40) way Speaker 2 (14:41) Because you said you weren't interested in photography, but you were interested in pictures. And what's the difference? Speaker 1 (14:49) Well, photography, for a start, is about a machine. Like, I'm looking at one right now. so Speaker 1 (14:57) Photography is a camera and a camera is a piece of equipment and it's very technical. And I think when I was younger, I'm like the most un-technical person you're ever going to meet. I do not know anything about, I mean, I know the basics of a camera, but I'm not really, I never really was curious about the workings of a camera or how to light someone with flash in the most incredible way. I just wasn't interested in the technicality of photography. Speaker 1 (15:32) But I love pictures. Yeah. I think for me, photography and looking is what a photographer is. But for me, you make photographs. But for me, pictures. Speaker 1 (15:46) I think. I mean, obviously I look a lot, but... I think what I do more than looking is I feel things. So when I meet someone, I feel them and I feel their energy and I feel who they are. Speaker 1 (16:04) I don't know whether this makes sense, but... it's about feeling something for me. It's whether you're feeling a person's energy or it's whether you're feeling... a mood or it's whether you're feeling mischievous or whether you're feeling Speaker 1 (16:23) I don't know, it's about a feeling and that's what makes a picture for me. It's not... looking doesn't make a picture. Looking can make a photograph because we all do that with our iPhones and everyone does that. But for me, there's a real... pleasure of making a picture of a person. is feeling them yeah Speaker 2 (16:47) and Speaker 1 (16:48) and making a picture of of a mood is feeling this mood of what it is is it's is it romantic is it about mist on the hill is it is it about wet grass that feeling is is what I think I've always tried to manifest as a picture yeah yeah Speaker 2 (17:10) that's That's such a good description. I feel similarly like I'm looking for a feeling that I can... take the next bit of the journey on when Speaker 1 (17:26) when Speaker 2 (17:27) I like it, you know talking to people I I Feel like I want to feel their worlds and I have to switch off an analytical part of my head and something else comes to life and I love your description of that. You also talked about drawing extreme figures as a child, a very tall person with long hair or a round person. You described it as a kind of Mr. Men language and I wondered if you look for that. a certain kind of model to photograph that reminds you of those drawings. Speaker 1 (18:11) Oh, I love the Mr. Men. Absolutely love them. They were all different shapes and sizes and colours, you see. They all had different personalities. Speaker 1 (18:24) I think, um... Cartoons. call Mr. Men a cartoon or illustration, child's illustration, whatever, is something that really is the genesis of my life as a photographer, I think. Speaker 1 (18:46) a cartoon's I think photography is quite cartoon like really in a way it's so immediate and simple Speaker 1 (18:57) And... Speaker 1 (19:00) Yeah, I think I'm always looking for those shapes and colors. Speaker 1 (19:07) And I love very, very tall people. I love very, very big people.