Lee Hathaway

Desert Island Tricks

In this episode of Desert Island Tricks, host Jamie interviews veteran magician Lee Hathaway about his decades-long career, from running a beloved Covent Garden magic stall to his current role

Key takeaways

• Lee Hathaway co-ran the Magic Cave stall in Covent Garden for nearly a decade starting around 2001/2002 with Neil Henry before selling it due to rising costs.
• Performers frequently 'unlearn' techniques over time because modern schedules lack the calm, meditative repetition required to maintain muscle memory and deep focus.

Main topics

• Magic stall history & Covent Garden scene
• Skill retention & deliberate practice philosophy

Notable quotes

It's not even finding the time, is it? It's having that sort of calm and being able to meditate on something and do it over and over and over again...

Conclusion

The episode offers magicians both practical insights into maintaining craft under professional pressures

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:00) I don't know if you're familiar with Gustav Kuhn. He wrote the Psychology of Magic book. He does a lot of science and magic stuff. Gustav's a great friend of mine. We've been friends since we were teenagers. And... We found like an old VHS tape the other day of us doing the cups and balls years ago. And we sat down and watched it. And we were watching it and we're going, oh my God, you were really good. So we've almost unlearned stuff, you know, like back then. Because we had the time to practice, you know, and the time to get the techniques really good in that. And I don't know if you just sort of lose sense of the time to be able to do that or just become lazy, I guess, as you get. I don't know. But yeah, there's definitely... Lots of things that you sort of think to yourself now, I'd love to learn that, but you just don't have to, you know, you just don't seem to be able to. It's not even finding the time, is it? It's having that sort of calm and being able to meditate on something and do it over and over and over again, you know, for so long to get really good at it where it becomes sort of almost naturally nuller. Speaker 1 (1:26) Hello and welcome to another episode of Desert Island Tricks. Now, a few weeks ago, if you've been listening, we had Michael J. Fitch on. Slash Michael McIntyre. Slash all of the other characters that he decided to be in that episode. And today we have a very close friend of Michael J. Fitch, someone that he works very closely with, and someone that I've known since I was, I would assume, 16 or 17. because today's guest used to own a magic stall in London. We've spoken about this stall. It was called the Magic Cave. And I know that a lot of magicians that we've had on this podcast often talk about Davenport. And there seems to be a generation of magicians almost who used to go to Davenport. And we had the same kind of experiences there. But I think it's really important to highlight that Magic Cave was very much the same thing. There was very much a generation of magicians who would meet up there regularly. That was the first time that I met Neil Henry, who used to work on there, of course, previous guest of the podcast, now an absolutely sensational social media star. I also met Angelo Carbone for the first time there, who used to go down there. Dynamo, that was the first time that I saw him. He used to regularly go there. It used to literally be a little hub and it was an absolute must stop. I also remember all of the staff being very, very cold in the winter. That was always the biggest complaint was how cold it was. But it was such a nice place to chill out. And it's so nice that finally we've got Lee. And again, we always say this on the podcast. We've been trying to get Lee on here for, I would say, over a season and a half now. We've been trying to get him on, but he is so busy with everything that he's doing. And hopefully he'll tell all of us a bit about that. So, of course, today's guest is the wonderful Lee Hathaway. Hello, Lee. Speaker 4 (3:22) Hi, Jamie. How are you doing? Speaker 1 (3:24) Great to finally have you on. People can't see, but you're actually on your boat at the moment as well. Speaker 4 (3:29) I am, yeah. You mentioned the stool being cold. I obviously like being cold in the winter. That could be the only explanation. I miss the stool so much I bought a boat to stay cold. Speaker 1 (3:40) We should also tell people it's not quite the yacht that Lee asked for when he asked for a boat, unfortunately. But it looks really cool. It's really, really quirky. It's a Speaker 4 (3:49) very nice boat. Actually, it's quite warm in the winter. I've got nice central heating on it and stuff. No, it's a very lovely boat. And you've even Speaker 1 (3:55) held, like, magic. masterclasses and workshops and all sorts in your boat i Speaker 4 (4:00) have yeah we've had some really great magicians come down for the day and uh spend spend some time on the boat with a few people sessioning and that yeah and that's been that's been really great fun actually yeah um Don't make any money out of it, but it's been good fun. My best mate Jules calls this place the floating Knightsbridge apartment. Speaker 1 (4:22) And earlier on we mentioned Magic Cave. How many years did you have Magic Cave? It's kind of still there in an iteration, but obviously not Magic Cave anymore. Speaker 4 (4:31) Yeah, well, my lovely friend Marina, you probably don't remember her, but a South African lady, she had it. She had the stall in Common Garden. It was like a sort of, if you remember, it was like a sort of old gypsy caravan that looked like it. Yeah, yeah. And it used to open out. And Marina had it for many years, and I used to work for her when I was probably, you know, your age then, sort of 15, 16. And then she decided she wanted to retire and do something else. And Neil and I, at the time, I met Neil Henry. Neil and I were working in Harrods for Marvin, and we used to go and do a few market stalls on the side because I knew where to get dynamic coins. Svengali decks and that. And we were doing really well. We got on really well. We were selling them and this stall came up and so we bought it off Marina. And that was about 2001, I think, 2002, something like that. And we had it for just under 10 years. And yeah, all through. But then we sold it to Ashley, who's currently got it now. And I know he's changed it up a bit, but actually Neil and I could have probably... it probably would have been more lucrative to sell it as a, not as a magic stall, but just as the pitch in Common Garden that we own, because that was the real value in it. But we wanted it to carry on being a magic stall of some kind, because it meant quite a lot to us, and it had been there for a while. So, yeah, but you know, I mean, I'd speak to Neil quite regularly, actually. We're really great friends, and he's one of the most wonderful people. I mean, it's just full of energy. And he's... Speaker 4 (6:00) And there were great times. There were really great times. I mean, we absolutely loved having that place, you know, even when it was cold in the winter and that. But eventually, you know, I did Fool Us. Neil was doing some cool stuff with his acting and stuff. And of course, as you know now, he's sort of a massive influencer online with six million TikTok followers or what have you. And we just couldn't be there much, you know. And then we... We ran it for about a year or two. We weren't really taking any money out of it, but we just liked having it, you know. And then one January, when it was freezing, like you said, it was freezing cold in winter, and Neil and I had to sort of bail out the rent to the tune of about three and a half grand. And that's the point where we went, I think it's time we need to pass this on, you know, because now it's actually costing us money to have, yeah. But I loved having this. I loved having this. I love those. I mean, I always loved those old classic joke shops. I used to love going to Allen Allen's in town, you know, where everything popped or exploded. And, you know, those little funny man carded jokes and that, you know, I just I love all that stuff. I love them on the seaside. You know, it's a shame you don't see so many of them around nowadays. But all those silly jokes and Neil's the same, you know, I mean. The day we found a telescopic fort in a joke shop in Great Yarmouth, that was our day made. So we used to hunt out these really cool, silly things. So yeah, it was good times. Yeah, really good. Speaker 1 (7:20) And I remember your appearance on Fool Us. If anyone hasn't seen it, please go and see it. And I remember you had some sort of hatch on your back and they put the cards inside and you ended up cutting open your stomach, reaching inside and pulling out the... card and in the end you fooled Penn and Teller which was absolutely amazing but even that I remember you've always had kind of an offbeat quirky style even at the stall you used to try and get in the latest tricks but there was always something on your stall that I was like I have just not seen that before that's a really interesting idea and I remember you brought out Two tricks I remember, you had the cannabis effect and you had the crystal method. And the crystal method was absolutely brilliantly clever. And I mean, the cannabis effect, there were versions of the cannabis effect that came out after that effect. So you've always kind of had this affinity for just discovering different methods and brand new tricks. Speaker 4 (8:25) Yeah, I must credit Daniel Young there who used to come and work at the stall and hang out a lot because Dan really came up with the sort of methodology behind the cannabis effect. I just sort of named it and put a routine around it really and then helped him market it. And it's obviously based on Ted Leslie's thing without going into methods, but that's where it sort of comes from. Speaker 4 (8:49) I think that one of the things that really shone through when I worked with Neil, and even today, Neil and I just love magic and we love cool stuff, you know. I mean, we used to get, you know, Murphy's, who you know, the big distributor and that. Neil and I used to spend far longer than anyone would reasonably spend if it was your business. Do you know what I mean? We would sit in the evening and have a good bottle of wine and, like, spend hours and hours going through everything on Murphy's and having a look and going, oh, that's cool, let's get one of those, that's cool, you know, because we loved it, you know, and it was like, and... And what was great about having the shop was like every couple of weeks, I mean, you know this with Alex, it's like every couple of weeks, it's like, it's not just stock arriving, it's like, oh, presents, you know, let's have a look at this, what does this do? You know, so it was like, it was sort of feeding our hobby to find out what all these cool things were. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember, I don't think I've mentioned any specific items, but Lynn and I used to have a little... competition between us to try and order the worst possible dealer item ever. I'll tell you off the podcast, I think I'll get in trouble if I start this. There is one that's a standout winner. It Speaker 1 (9:59) depends. Is the company still in operation? Does it still exist? Speaker 4 (10:03) It's an individual, so I think I'd probably... Speaker 1 (10:05) Okay, let's move on then. Nothing Speaker 4 (10:09) against the individual at all, but the trick was absolutely wrong. Speaker 1 (10:15) And now you'll work at the Magic Circle. So now you're master of the house, I've been told, at the Magic Circle. Speaker 4 (10:22) That's what I'm going for, Jamie, Master of the House. Yeah, they haven't quite decided what I am there yet. I've been the chair, the vice president, the membership secretary. Now I'm helping sort of manage and run the building, and that's very much drifted into more of a full-time role. So I think we probably have to have a discussion. I've been doing that. Originally, it was supposed to be a temporary thing, but I've been doing it now for... about a year coming up to sort of 14 months. And I really quite enjoy it, actually. I mean, I'm 50 on tomorrow, actually. It's my 50th birthday tomorrow. And I do, I really enjoy it. And what it's enabled me to do, I've not taken a sort of proper wage for doing it because it's something I've wanted to, you know, I've taken something, but I've always wanted to support the circle anyway. It just got to the point where I was doing too much. And actually, I was losing gigs where I wasn't chasing things and that. And I said, look, if you want me to be more involved, I'm going to have to get some sort of remuneration for this. But I do really enjoy it. Actually, I enjoy being on the boat and being able to spend time with my dog and going in and doing the stuff that I do at the Circle and not having to run around taking every gig here, left, right and centre, and just sort of calm down a bit. So, yeah, so maybe there's a discussion to be had sort of come January and that if they still want me. And, yeah, but I do want that title. I think it's quite theatrical. Do you know what I mean? I think that's what we need to bring into the circle is a bit more fun and theatre, you know. Speaker 1 (11:54) Yeah, definitely. Now let's get into your list then. So, obviously, we just spoke about... The affinity you have for just new magic as well. And when things come up and, you know, you said that new stock would come into the store and then it was like a present being delivered because you just wanted to soak up those methods. So when it comes to putting your list together, are you now at the stage? And I'm just going to say, I meant to say this a second ago. Not just being nice to you. You haven't aged a day since when you worked at the Speaker 3 (12:25) store. Speaker 1 (12:26) Considering you're going to be 50, you look great for your age. Well done. Speaker 4 (12:29) Well, that's very kind of you. That's very, very sweet of you. You're doing something right. I should let my surgeon know. So how did you go Speaker 1 (12:40) about putting your list together then? Speaker 4 (12:42) Funny enough, I mentioned Marina to you who used to own the stall in Common Garden and I went to her 60th birthday party a couple of months ago and she does not look any different from the day that she had that stall. So maybe we've discovered something. If you want to stay young, get yourself a magic stall. Well, it kind of keeps you young in a way because you're sort of doing silly stuff for a living, you know, fun stuff. So, yeah, but she looks great still. It's incredible. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 (13:08) I sort of, I think I thought about, Speaker 4 (13:11) what effects I really love, you know, that have given me sort of a lot of joy and pleasure over the years and the reason why I like those. I've thought about things that, and as I'm sure you probably must have had other people on the podcast, things that I really love but I've never had the time to learn or have never sat down and really applied myself and there's not been a reason to do that. And then I thought about, you know, really, I think a nod to some of the people that I really love in magic and have given me, you know, sort of a lot of joy and Speaker 2 (13:45) some of the stuff. Yeah, so it's just, it's over. These are things that I really Speaker 4 (13:50) love and have got a lot of joy and a lot of fun out of, I guess, really. Yeah. And then there's a couple. Speaker 4 (13:58) Yeah, we'll come to that. I'll mention that in a minute, actually. Speaker 1 (14:01) Okay. There's one on there, though. So, if it's your first time listening, the idea is we're about to maroon Lee on his very own desert island. When he's there, he's allowed to take eight tricks, banish one item, take one book and one non-magic item that he uses for magic. And, of course, it's season three, which means he's got a welcome package waiting with some fluffy... slippers, a little robe and a deck of cards. He's only allowed to do a normal trick with that deck of cards. What would you do with your welcome package, Lee? Speaker 4 (14:30) So with the cards, I thought about this and I thought to myself, right, so the... Speaker 4 (14:38) I've been very lucky, you know, especially in being sort of my age. I sort of grew up in a time where a lot of the real greats were still alive. A lot of them are past now. But, you know, I was fortunate enough to meet Alex Elmsy at some point. And, you know, I won't start dropping names left, right and centre. But I've been very lucky to hang out with a lot of those people, you know, and see some great... And, you know, I've always loved card magic incessantly, you know. And for me, the greatest... the greatest card handler I ever saw who I met once and I think sort of surpassed anybody else was Kevin Ray. Right. And I met him at the International Magic Convention and I've seen people come close to him before, but he was just incredible. Just everything he did looked like real magic. You just couldn't see a thing. And that always stuck with me. I've never seen anyone as good as Kevin Ray was. And there's an old clip on the Paul Daniels. magic show you might recall where there's one of the few bits of video of Kevin Ray actually where he's performing a sort of dealing demonstration and it's just beautiful it looks really great and so there's a particular technique that he's using in that I won't give away any methods or that but it's of all the sort of things I've learnt over the years, it's probably a technique that I can really do a brushing up on. And as you know, it can take years and years and years to... The trick I would... Or the effect I would do is Cannibal Cards by Roy Walton because it uses a very specific technique and it's something I'd love to get great at. And I think if you're stuck on a desert island, what better time to learn that? Yeah, so as I say, Kevin Ray was a master of it and there's many other people since. But I think that's the effect I'd want to... learn for that reason so you have uh you have two jacks sort of face up on the uh on the top of the deck and uh there's four aces face down sandwiched in between them and as you deal them down at the table each time one of the aces gradually vanishes from the uh from from between the jacks and it just looks like you're dealing them down and these cards sort of sort of melt away in between them. And then you can deal them all back again in between the jacks if you wish. And without giving any methods away, as you know, it's a very specific gambling technique that he uses. It's a type of deal technique. And I've learned it. I've learned versions of it, but I'm not, I'm no expert in it. And when you see someone like who's just perfected that, it just looks beautiful. So, you know, and so my inspiration for that was Kevin Ray and of course the wonderful Roy Walton, who's one of my favorite. favourites or creators as well. Speaker 1 (17:17) It's funny how it doesn't matter how long someone's been in this industry and been a magician. It does seem to be a running theme throughout the podcast that everyone has that one thing that they've not had a chance to master or perfect. And it really does go to show that you're always learning. It doesn't matter at what stage you are in your career. There's always something more to learn. Speaker 4 (17:42) Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I mean, I watched them. I don't know if you're familiar with Gustav Kuhn. He wrote the Psychology of Magic book. He does a lot of science and magic stuff. Gustav's a great friend of mine. We've been friends since we were teenagers. And... We found like an old VHS tape the other day of us doing the cups and balls years ago. And we sat down and watched it. And we were watching it and we're going, oh my God, you were really good. So we've almost unlearned stuff, you know, like back then. Because we had the time to practice, you know, and the time to get the techniques really good in that. And I don't know if you just sort of lose sense of the time to be able to do that or just become lazy, I guess, as you get. I don't know. But yeah, there's definitely... Lots of things that you sort of think to yourself now, I'd love to learn that, but you just don't have to, you know, you just don't seem to be able to. It's not even finding the time, is it? It's having that sort of karma and being able to meditate on something and do it over and over and over again, you know, for so long to get really good at it where it becomes sort of almost natural. I mean, I love the past, which I think I can... blame that without getting out. I mean, I love that I was always into, you know, different techniques to, you know, for the pass, which is essentially for your listeners to control the card to the top of the deck, you know, and I spent ages learning that, you know, and I probably still do that. you know, reasonably proficiently. You know, when I show that to other magicians, you know, that's always my sort of wow move that I can do really well, you know. But as you know yourself, that takes, you know, I mean, in the Royal Road to Card Magic, there's a great paragraph where it sort of says, this is, you know, this is the most, paraphrasing, this is the most difficult move in card magic. You know, many would-be conjurers have given up trying to learn this technique, you know. And I remember reading that as a teenager thinking, That's what I'm learning. You've laid down the challenge. That's the one I want to learn. Speaker 1 (19:39) You're absolutely right. But I don't think it's necessarily that the people get lazy. My take on it is I think as you're becoming a professional performer, quote unquote, you end up having a set and you end up sticking to that set. And I know a lot of people. Those are the tricks that they do. They're happy with them. And they're not necessarily in the market to learn more or to practice necessarily new stuff because that's just their set. So I think that maybe it's just that we get comfortable with what we know and we either un-remember, if that's a word, things that we used to do because we don't need that knowledge anymore. Speaker 4 (20:19) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's... I think there's certainly an element of truth to that. I mean, I'm sure probably most magicians you speak to, you know, you had Michael on the other week. I'm sure you probably, you know, I guess yourself, anyone, there's so many techniques I've learned that I've never, you know, the downs roll down flourish. You know, I pick up poker chips and just sit there doing it, but that's about as much use as I've ever got out of it. You know, it takes ages to learn, you know. Speaker 4 (20:49) Back palm productions, you know, I mean, I can do back palm productions, but I've never done it on a stage. I've never done a carpenter act, you know. So, you know, the most I've ever done is used it as a gag, you know, which is something that happens to take a long time to learn, yeah. Speaker 1 (21:04) Amazing. Right, Cannibal Cards is going with you on your island. Let's go to your main list then. So what is the first effect you would be taking with you? Speaker 4 (21:12) Well, I spoke to you briefly on Facebook and I said to you, if I'm taking an effect, do I get the consumables to come with it? And you said to me, yeah, you can have those. It's the Alakazam Island. We're quite generous here. So I'm going to take an any drink call for kettle, I think, with the consumables to keep me going on the island. The benefit of a listener is a classic effect. Paul Daniels did