458: Ancient vs. Hyper-Mortal (w/ Paige Lewis!)

Dear Hank & John - Complexly

Hank and John welcome author Paige Lewis to discuss writing, legacy, and the weight of expectations. They reflect on revisiting past work, the fear of imperfection, and the balance between self-care and sacrifice. The conversation blends humor, vulnerability, and deep reflection on creativity and life.

Key takeaways

• Revisiting old work can be painful and unproductive.
• Embracing imperfection is key to creative growth.
• Self-care isn't the only path to fulfillment.

Transcript preview

You're listening to a Complexly Podcast. Hello and welcome to Dear John and Hank. Or as I prefer to think of it, Dear Paige and John. It's a podcast where two friends give you dubious advice, bring you all the week's news from both Mars and AFC Wimbledon and answer your questions. I'm joined today by my ancient friend, Paige Lewis. It's a podcast where two friends, give you dubious. you're actually very young ancient in the sense that that's that's the nature of your wisdom you write epics page yeah no that is yeah I like to be thought of as like the the symbol of Kumei yeah and also I feel like I've known you since before Kavan I got married like which is a long time I have known you since I have known you since I have known you since before you got married I have known you since before you got married and that's pretty cool it is really cool it's been very cool to see so for those for those for those and most recently the author of a novel called Canon that's one of my favorite books of all time and Canon is a non-binary epic as it says at the very beginning of the book and it's it's this I hope you take this as a common but I think it's the strangest book I've ever read and one of the most enjoyable. No I like that I think that that thank you by the way that's very sweet I think that everyone so far has been calling it weird. Yeah, well it's not like it shouldn't be a huge surprise to you that people consider it weird because it is a different novel from the ones that people are used to reading. Right. I was thinking the other day about how nice your voice is. No, well I and you called me out of the blue like a month ago and I was in an airport and I was going to be in an airport for the next like six hours. and I was really bummed about it and then you called which is weird because no one ever calls that's like not a thing people do anymore right and after I talked to you I was totally fine in the airport and I think it's because your voice is so calming and that makes me think I know you're not going to be doing the voices for Hollywood ending right probably not no that you should get a job sort of recording warnings for people. Like, oh no, a nuclear bomb is coming your way. Like if everyone heard it in your voice, I think it would be fine and everyone would accept it. Good news and bad news, y'all. We've got a tsunami on the horizon, but exactly. But there's really no but to that sentence. Thanks for coming to my party. All right, we are going to answer some questions from our listeners. But first, I just have to say. that in addition to being the author of Canon you are also one of the only people who's ever read Hollywood ending and you wrote me a very nice email about it which I appreciate very much so thank you thank you for being such a good friend and thanks for hosting this podcast. Yeah of course if I hadn't liked it would have been allowed on the podcast. If you hadn't liked it I think you would have pretended to like it because that's who you are as a person. No I think that if I hadn't liked it I wouldn't have said much to you I would have been like you did it. You did it. You did it. You did it. You did it, I wouldn't and I don't often, not that I don't care to write a lot to people, but I don't often get out of my head long enough to tell people about the things that I love about them and it was exciting to read your book and then want to, every four words text you about how great your book was. And I love all of it. I even like the people that I hate in the book. Like I don't think of the, like the people that I hate in the book. Like I don't think of the, like the people that I hate in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book in the book. like the bad guys in your book as evil. They just feel, they feel like people, which makes it feel much more sinister. Like it just feels very realistic sort of bad guy. And I really love that about the book. Yeah, I think the truth of villainy is that it's so much sadder and more depressing than just people who are evil. Yeah, yeah, no, that is a good way to think of it. And there, it is very sad and depressing how the villains work in your book. I guess. All right. Now that we're a real mutual appreciation society let's answer some questions from our listeners beginning with this one from A Leah who writes, Dear John and Page, I just finished listening to the 2014 episode, Page Quick Background in 2014 I was famous and it was unpleasant and I made a podcast about it with my brother where John expressed the desire to rewrite all of his previous books to which I ask why don't you release a John's version of the books like Taylor Swiss Taylor's version albums or an annotated edition like Anne Patchez-C-C-Canteel-Canteau's bell canteau. I love. I love. I love. I love can't. I love can't. and would love to read your marginalia reflected on your own work. My name pronunciation is too confusing to have a name specific sign off, but it's a Leah or a Leah or a Leah. Why haven't you done that, John? Why haven't you done it? Is the real question. I haven't done it because I would be too embarrassed to reread my books, even to annotate them and tell you how horrible they are. When was the, when was the last time you read one of your old books? I read in 2010 to write a movie adaptation of it to write a movie adaptation of it to write like a screenplay adaptation and it was a horrible experience on every level like it was a horrible experience to reread the book and be so disappointed by it it was a horrible experience to try to write a screenplay and then the worst of it page if I can be frank and a little bit base the worst of it was that the movie studio that paid me to write the was so disappointed with my screenplay that they withheld the final five thousand dollars of my payment. Oh my gosh forever I saw the guy who did this at at the opening of the Fault in our Stars and I embraced him and whispered into his ear I remember the five thousand dollars. Yeah that feels very insulting. It was exactly it was like it was insulting. They're not even like we have notes for you they're just like all right you gave us this. here is five thousand dollars less than we are. This is not worthy of what you're contractually obligated to be paid. That feels like the worst net like that would be a thing that you would as you were writing this screenplay like you would tell yourself okay the worst that could happen is they just give me some notes or they say they didn't like a specific part but no the actual worst that could happen was they would give you way less money because they thought it was so bad. And to think of it being something that you can measure in dollars is also kind of heartbreaking. Like, this thing that you made, it can be measured in money. The commodification of art in general is horrifying, right? Like it feels like watching sausage get made in the worst way, but having it laid bare for you like that, like this isn't worth the last 5,000 dollars. I assume that you will be a person of so little import in my life that I don't have to pay you is especially annoying I think. You had only waited like two years to read it since having written it right or at least having published it which isn't very long and I will say I was in high school in 2008 so I wasn't even doing anything cool yet. Yeah. You had already written books like that's so exciting but that is also it's been a while since 2008. So I wasn't even doing. It has been a while since 2008. So if you were to go back and try to rewrite the book or write a new screenplay, do you think it would come out differently or do you think you would give up? I think it would come out so differently that it wouldn't be the same book anymore. Like I can't go back and write looking for Alaska again because it was all so raw then and I didn't know what I didn't know in ways that probably are things people like about the book but not things I like about the book, but not things I like about the book, but not things I like about the book, but not I don't know this is your first novel so how are you feeling in the wake of your first novel like have you reread it obsessively since it came out? No, Kave it my husband has he keeps reading it which is very nice and he likes it like he's not reading it to point out where I could have done better or to say I should have gotten less money for it but I'm not a big like I don't like the idea of having to go back into that world especially because I want to focus I want to focus on right a new thing. But I also think about how often writers talk about like editing their work and when the editing process is finally finally done and I remember the poet Stephanie Bert giving a reading and as she was reading from her poems she was writing something in her published book like while on stage and I asked her afterwards what she was doing and she was reading from her poems she was writing something in her published book like while on stage and I asked her afterwards what she was doing and she was doing and I asked her the poems. And I was like, they're already published, you can't do that. And she's like, of course I can. Like I'm going to keep reading them to people and thinking about how to change them once I hear them in the air. And I thought that that was so interesting and also very stressful. Like even saying that I've handed this book to a publisher and gotten it printed doesn't mean that I will stop editing it. I don't know. I don't want to edit forever. I don't want to doing a John's version of every book you've ever written would just prevent you from writing new books maybe. Yeah I also think it would potentially make them worse like do you remember that how Auden changed a bunch of his poems like later in life and like almost exclusively made them worse? Yeah yeah the poet Marianne Moore did the same thing where she had like a really long poem about poetry and then cut everything but three lines and then in her... poem too. It's such a good poem. And like the Mary Ann's version after is really kind of funny, but it's not, it doesn't have everything that you want from the original poem. And she, in one of her books she published like an epigraph that just said, omissions are not accidents. Like she meant to take everything out that she took out. And so yeah, I think there's definitely, I'm sure for her, she really liked the. new editions, but I think that most people prefer the non-edited or non-omitted bits from poems. Yeah, yeah, I think those are the good parts. The first line of Mary Ann Moore's poem about poetry is one of my all-time favorite lines in a poem. I too dislike it. There are things that are important beyond all this fiddle. It's so good. She's so weird. Yeah. And I always think about her, there's like. this sort of anecdote that Elizabeth Bishop would tell about Mary Ann Moore and Elizabeth Bishop was kind of like her protege. But Mary Ann Moore lived with her mother her entire life and her mother's entire life so when her mother passed away Elizabeth Bishop and Mary Ann Moore were like in a they were driving to the funeral and they passed a sign that said something like lizard exhibition this way and Mary Ann Moore like perked up for the first time since her mom died. And then she sort of sat back down and she said, well maybe on the way back, which I think is so sweet and says a lot about her as a poet and the things