The 'Scandalous' Life of Marie Antoinette

Dan Snow's History Hit

This episode explores the historical reality behind the scandalous reputation of Marie Antoinette, debunking long-standing myths surrounding

Key takeaways

• Marie Antoinette was an Austrian princess, making her a target for anti-Austrian sentiment in France.
• The famous 'let them eat cake' quote is a historical myth attributed to her years after it was written by Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

Main topics

• Marie Antoinette's early life and marriage
• The myths of Versailles

Notable quotes

You are born to obey.

Conclusion

A compelling look at how political propaganda and social instability c

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History It and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard III. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyit.com slash subscribe. Speaker 3 (0:30) Glamorous, extravagant, scandalous, deeply misunderstood. Marie Antoinette became the ultimate symbol of the French Revolution. The poster girl for the excessive monarchy that feasted while the country starved, who draped themselves in jewels as people died in the streets. At one point, she was the most hated woman in France, the woman they blamed for it all. But did she deserve it? Marie Antoinette, she was a... teenage archduchess, she was a princess from Vienna, sent across Europe as a political bargaining chip to secure an alliance between rival empires. In 1770, 14 years old, she entered the suffocating spectacle of Versailles, a court of ritual, a court of surveillance, where every gesture was judged and every weakness exploited. As the French monarchy began to fracture under crises that were totally out of her control, The Queen became a scapegoat. A scapegoat for the nation that was desperate for someone to blame. As we love doing this show, we are going to be sorting out the truth from the myth. There is no one better to do this than Professor Kate Williams, historian, broadcaster, author of a new book called Regina, A New History of Women and Power. We're very lucky to have her on the pod once again. From the halls of Versailles to the prison cells Speaker 2 (1:48) of Speaker 3 (1:48) revolutionary Paris, right, in fact, to here, our podcast studio at History HQ, this is the story of Marie Antoinette. Speaker 3 (2:01) Kate Williams, good to have you back on the pod. Thrilled Speaker 1 (2:03) to be here. I mean, what a start. Speaker 3 (2:05) We're going to talk about Marion Sornet. The key thing is, not French, Austrian. That's kind of essential to understanding her in many ways, right? Speaker 1 (2:11) Not French, Austrian, the Austrian princess. And she was criticised for that at the time. So she's not French. I'd say her spending didn't break Versailles and she never said, let them eat cake. So there's some myths to overturn. We're Speaker 3 (2:24) going Speaker 1 (2:24) to Speaker 3 (2:24) puncture myths left, right and centre. But the Austrian-ness is fascinating. Her mum... Maria Theresa, actually one of the great figures of the 18th century in her own right, like two seconds on Maria Theresa, held an empire together against Frederick the Great, who's pretty hardcore, whilst having children all over the place in a man's world. Extraordinary woman. Speaker 1 (2:42) Extraordinary woman. Marie Antoinette is her 15th child. And she's, last child, 15. And she's really up doing work on her papers while she's pretty much in labour with Marie Antoinette and gives birth to this small but perfectly healthy archduchess. And when her husband died, she's a pretty benign figure. When her husband dies, when Marie Antoinette is a young girl, really... Maria Theresa then becomes the king. She then becomes the king. She rules with an iron fist. She rules for her son. I mean, she is one of the most powerful women, really, in history in Europe. Speaker 3 (3:16) Would Marie Antoinette have had much Speaker 1 (3:17) access to her mum, do you think, in those early years? Oh, Marie Antoinette's mother was a... control woman, a helicopter mother. We've got a helicopter parent there. There's Speaker 3 (3:28) none Speaker 1 (3:28) of this gentle parenting with Maria Theresa. She was intent on Marie Antoinette. And there's Speaker 3 (3:35) a Speaker 1 (3:35) rather tragic moment. Well, there's the series of moments when smallpox sweeps the family. So what happens when you're the 15th Archduchess? You think you're probably a long way away from a major marriage chessboard moment. Speaker 1 (3:49) But in fact, two sisters get killed by smallpox. Another one survives, but her looks are deemed so bad that she has to go and be a nun and becomes a very powerful abyss. But Marie Antoinette then moves up the sort of table and becomes a powerful piece on the chessboard. And that's why her mother becomes more... intent on making her into this perfect princess. She's got to be educated. She has music. There's a combination between having a rather fun childhood. They've got a menagerie with a rhino and Mozart comes and tells Marie Antoinette. perhaps apocryphal in this story. He tells Marie Antoinette he wants to marry her and they have a rather lovely life with ice skating. But also Maria Theresa sees her daughters in particular as a bit like Queen Victoria did. These are her way of creating alliances across Europe and you are going to toe the line. And Marie Antoinette is made very clear to her early on, you are born to obey. Speaker 3 (4:45) And the Austrians have been fighting the French for longer than anyone can remember. And traditionally, Europe's been a sort of contest between those two. But now you've got the Prussians on the scene. You've got these Germans rising in the north. And you get this extraordinary revolution, don't you? This absolute 180. France and Austria do the unthinkable, prompted by this dangerous new player. They do the unthinkable and they form an alliance. And Marion Thouinette's key to that, I suppose. They Speaker 1 (5:13) form an alliance. And how do you seal this deal with a princess? Archduchess Marie Antoinette, she is going to be betrothed to the Dauphin, to the future king of France. They had thought about it for her sister, Maria Carolina, but because of the death of the elder sister, Maria Carolina goes off to marry the king of Naples and later has all kinds of drama in her life, including Emma Hamilton and Nelson. And Marie Antoinette, she's destined for the French court. And Marie Antoinette. Her job, when she's sent off to the French court, when she's only 14 after being married by proxy, her mother says, oh, do so much for the French that they say I've sent them an angel. It's a lot of weight on a teenager's shoulder. Yes. Speaker 3 (5:54) So first, a couple of questions. So she is a teenager still. Speaker 1 (5:57) She's Speaker 3 (5:57) a Speaker 1 (5:57) teenager still. She is married by proxy. Then she's sent over at 14 to conduct the marriage. Speaker 3 (6:03) Any say in it herself? No, this is just, you're told what you're going to be doing. Zero say. Zero Speaker 1 (6:08) say. You are there to obey. You are there to create glory for Austria. And, you know, really with Marie Antoinette, you see this problem. for the consort. On one hand, she's supposed to give everything to France. On the other hand, she's supposed to advocate for the interest of her home country. The ultimate diplomat. The ultimate diplomat. So you've got a split personality. Speaker 3 (6:29) So the stilquilla of agency here is that you're not just a piece on the chessboard to go and join the French. You have to work hard. The expectation is you are going to... You're a politician in your own right. You are going to represent Austria. You're going to make France great. You're going to embody this new alliance. Speaker 1 (6:46) And you do that at 14. You have to make Austria great, secure the alliance. And it's so symbolic, Marie Antoinette's journey to France, because she sets off in this most wonderful trousseau, fabulous outfits, gorgeous gowns. They're all wondrous. fantastic exhibition at the V &A of what could have been many of Marie Antoinette's gowns. And they are teeny tiny. And that's probably because these are children wearing them. Marie Antoinette is so young. So she sets off in this wonderful trousseau. And then when she gets to the border, what happens is every piece of Austrian dress and her jewellery is taken off her. So she's totally undressed by the ladies, by the French ladies, and then redressed in French. dress so that nothing remains of the Austrian clothing, not even underwear, because that is a foreign court. And even her pug mops is taken off her and Marie Antoinette's face sad, but that's just symbolic. The pug is actually sent later to Versailles. So Marie Antoinette then says, I don't want to hear anything but French. That is who I am now. And she sets off in her French finery, surrounded by women. doesn't know, who are very formal with her. They're very formal with her. There's no hugs. There's no, you know, hand-holding. They're very formal with her. And then she goes to meet her future husband, who is, well, he's one of life's pragmatic diarists. He just writes in his diary, meeting with Madame Le Dauphine, and that's it. Speaker 3 (8:17) That's it. That's it. Speaker 1 (8:18) So Speaker 3 (8:18) not much poetry there in his heart. And also, her name changes at that border as well. Speaker 1 (8:23) Yes, she was Marie Antoine and now she's Marie Antoinette. And everything about her is supposed to be French, except she's, as you say, the child of the historic enemy. I mean, they've been the enemy for so long. So it's all very well the elite saying Austrians are friends now. But do the other people, the ordinary people, do they really feel that way? Now here is the young princess who is... Pretty, graceful, elegant. She's charming. She charms Versailles, but she is Austrian. She speaks Speaker 3 (8:55) perfect French? Speaker 1 (8:56) She's learning perfect French. Her mother constantly criticises her for the standard of her handwriting and her reading. We might possibly say now that maybe that Marie Antoinette would be defined as dyslexic now, but her mother's always telling her off for her handwriting. But Marie Antoinette's speech and language is really very... very, very good very early. So she's immured in the court very quickly. Speaker 3 (9:22) Now, so she wins friends at court or impresses people at court, but there are lots of innuendo and rumours about her marriage and whether it was happy at first or whether it was even consummated at first. Speaker 1 (9:35) So they have the grand wedding. The king, who is grandfather of her husband, he thinks she's delightful and everything seems marvellous. Louis Speaker 3 (9:42) XV. Speaker 1 (9:43) Louis XV. But... There is this one problem. The marriage does not seem to be consummated. And this means she can be put aside at any time. She's taught by the Austrians, you don't understand the danger. But she does. She understands that. And as to when the marriage is consummated... And by the way, how Speaker 3 (10:02) do we know that? Was consummation a sort of semi-public event? Speaker 1 (10:06) It's not a semi-public event. It's just the fact that she's not falling pregnant. And the gossip is that they don't know what they're doing. And the question of when it was consummated is one that historians debate. It could have been three years, but we know for sure it's seven years because then she falls pregnant. So that's for sure. But I think it's probably around three, four years it takes them to work it out. A doctor has to be sent to talk to them. Her brother actually later goes to talk to them again. And it is obviously... You know, Louis, he's a very simple soul. He's a simple soul. He loves clocks. He loves playing with locks. He was never really intended to be king. And I think he just perhaps wasn't his bag. And certainly, unlike every other French king, he doesn't have a mistress. So Louis doesn't have a mistress. Louis XV. Speaker 3 (11:03) Grandpa Louis. Speaker 1 (11:04) Well, he's had, well, Madame du Barry is everywhere at court. And initially, Marie Antoinette says, who's that rather lovely lady? And she's told, she's there to give pleasure to the king. And Marie Antoinette says, oh, well, that's good. I'd like to give pleasure to the king too. And they're like, yes, not like that, dear. And initially, when Marie Antoinette realises who Madame du Barry is, she's... really rather shocked that a mistress is openly at court and won't acknowledge her. And finally, she's persuaded to do so, which is seen as a great diplomatic breakthrough just to say, hello, aren't there a lot of people here today? Because Madame du Barry is all powerful and the old king is really in charge. And this is a moment when Marie Antoinette hasn't consummated her marriage, but she acknowledges Madame du Barry, the mistress who controls everything. She consummates the marriage and then things seem to go... reasonably well. But the lack of a mistress is actually very annoying to a lot of people at court because they want a mistress and a wife so you can have two pathways towards the king. And also what we'll see a bit later on is that people might want to criticise the monarchy, but they don't want to attack the king because that could be treason. Maybe he's chosen by God. So they'll attack the wife and they'll attack the mistress. But with no mistress, it's all going to go on the wife. Speaker 3 (12:21) And France, I think France is in a perpetual state of crisis, but France has a problem in the 1760s and 1770s, which is not enough money, too much expenditure. They've taken an absolute beating from the Brits in the Seven Years' War, so they're keen for revenge. You've talked brilliantly about her in terms of the politics of court. What about the sort of wider, the challenges facing France? Is she involved in those conversations? Speaker 1 (12:49) Challenges facing France are, as you say, Dan, catastrophic. There's the huge debt after the Seven Years' War. Tax collecting is very inefficient and mainly falls on the poor who Speaker 3 (13:00) haven't got that much money Speaker 1 (13:01) anyway. Aristocrats aren't paying tax. Aristocrats aren't paying tax. Some areas pay more than others. The court. Versailles is insanely expensive. It is insanely expensive. But the real cost is these wars that France has been engaged in and the fact that there's no tax collection. And it's a very sort of archaic, I would say, in terms of centralised bureaucracy and the civil service. It's really creaking. And so Marie Antoinette is in this court. And what she's been trained to do is be the fairy at the top of the Christmas tree and organise this entire court. And yet also there are these waves of anger about people's lives just before the coronation. So when Marie Antoinette and Louis become king and queen, just before the coronation, we have what is known as the flower wars, battles