Was Henry VIII England's Most Evil King?

Dan Snow's History Hit - History Hit

This episode of Dan Snow's History Hit explores the complex legacy of King Henry VIII, examining why he remains a figure of enduring fascination despite his notorious actions. Historian

Key takeaways

• Henry VIII was initially seen as a glamorous, charismatic young king who brought stability after the Wars of the Roses.
• His early life was marked by privilege and isolation, which may have contributed to his later narcissism and belief in his own myth.

Main topics

• The cult of personality around Henry VIII
• Henry's early life and rise to power

Notable quotes

"He was a megalomaniac. He's a, one might say, a sexual terrorist."

"The biggest irony in English and British history."

Conclusion

Henry VIII remains a paradoxical figure—both monstrous and foundational. His reign, marked by violence and personal

Transcript preview

Speaker 6 (0:00) Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History It and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard III. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyit.com slash subscribe. Speaker 5 (0:32) I'm Dan Jones. I'm Dan Snow. And this is Dan... Squared. In a special series for This Is History, I, Dan Jones, interview people who use the past to make sense of our present. And this week, history hits Dan Snow takes me Speaker 6 (0:47) places. There are two kinds of historians in the world. There are those who go away on holiday... and Lana Sunlounger, and then there are those who immediately scale the cliff behind the hotel to Speaker 5 (0:57) go and look at the castle. Find this episode on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 4 (1:02) My name is Jonathan Sims. I work for the Magnus Institute London, an organisation dedicated to academic research into the esoteric and the paranormal. Statement begins. Next morning, however, he was found lying on the bottom of a lake with his limb out of position. And I am damn sure that it was going to hurt. Speaker 1 (1:22) To do that? Speaker 6 (1:35) You know the caricature, the hulking figure, stood with legs akimbo, the ultimate power pose, a man whose appetites seemed endless. He fractured the church, he executed his enemies, he executed his friends, he executed many of his wives. He was a user, an abuser, a murderous, narcissistic despot. And yet for some reason, we're all still sort of obsessed with King Henry VIII. Is it because he was particularly charismatic? Did he drag England out of the Middle Ages? Did he lay the foundations for a powerful Royal Navy, which Speaker 5 (2:13) I approve of? Speaker 6 (2:14) Could you say that he launched England, Britain's global golden age and helped to forge the modern state? Well, we're going to talk about it. Do we excuse the terrible things he did to the women in his life and to all the people that opposed him? And why do we do it, if so? Joining us to dig into the cult of personality that is Henry VIII is the historian, the author, the broadcaster, the great friend of this podcast, Professor Kate Williams, whose most recent book is Regina, A New History of Women and Power. Why do we love to hate King Henry VIII? Right now on Dan Snow's History Hit. Speaker 6 (2:59) Kate Williams. Good to see you. Good to see you, Dan. It's the big one, isn't it? It's the big one. Why do you... What is it with... Why are we obsessed with Henry VIII still? I mean, the man's a megalomaniac. He's a murderer. What's going on here? He's Speaker 1 (3:12) a megalomaniac. He's a, one might say, a sexual terrorist. He executes lots of people called Catherine, my namesake. I mean, you know, it says in Holland Shed's Chronicles that he executes 72,000. I think most historians think it's more around the 20,000 mark. But that's quite a lot when Bloody Mary gets called Bloody Mary for executing nearly 300. So why do we love Henry VIII so much? Mr. Bombastic, as Shaggy would say. Speaker 6 (3:39) Is he an anti... Do we love to hate him? Are we drawn to the... There is a feral charisma there. In fact, okay, well, let's break it down. Let's talk about... He was... I mean, we forget, really. He was a very glamorous prince. He was in the spirit of his absolute legendary grandfather with the fourth, who was beautiful, a phenomenal warrior. if he'd made the most of himself, he could have really gone places ever before. I always think it's Speaker 2 (4:09) a Speaker 6 (4:09) bit disappointing. Yeah, Speaker 5 (4:10) he Speaker 6 (4:10) let himself go a bit. So initially, it feels like a kind of Henrician golden age. And also there's been this big period of instability. Wars, the Roses, his dad's not super glamorous, Henry VII is still... But he comes to the throne, it feels like we're back. We're back in the stability, there's peace. And then there's a handsome young prince. Is that what it's about? Speaker 1 (4:28) He's handsome. He's 17. He's pure glamour. He marries Catherine of Amargan, which is seen as such a great alliance. The daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. Rock star. Rock star. He'd been betrothed to her niece, Queen Joanna's daughter, but the niece was too young to get married. And Henry wants to be married. He wants to be on there. He wants to have this huge coronation, gigantic coronation. It's the last joint coronation between Catherine and Henry until we get to James I. So really, this is a huge moment. But you know what's interesting about Henry is that for so long he was overlooked. For so long he was the spare destined for an ecclesiastical career. I mean... I suppose he did have an ecclesiastical career. He Speaker 6 (5:12) did have a big impact on religion. Yes, he did. He Speaker 1 (5:14) did. And was rather excluded because he was the spare. Arthur was the heir. Henry was the spare. A bit overlooked. Some historians say he was too cosseted by the women who brought him up around him and made him a bit too used to women saying yes all the time. And it's when he becomes the heir after Arthur's death, that transforms his life. And what I do find interesting is that Henry VII, as you say, not Mr. Glamour, bans jousting. He does not want the future Henry VIII doing any jousting. Speaker 6 (5:48) Is that health and safety concerns? Health and safety. Or is it he doesn't want them hanging with that crowd? Speaker 1 (5:52) Health and safety. Well, I think probably both. Those dodgy jousting boys. He doesn't want his son jousting. It's too dangerous. He's already lost Arthur. There are two girls, but there were seven births to Henry and Elizabeth of York. But now we have three children remaining, Margaret, Henry, Mary. So we don't want a woman on the throne. We've already seen what happens when you have a weak person on the throne with Henry VI at the Wars of the Roses. So everyone's worried about sliding Speaker 6 (6:20) back into the Wars of the Roses. Everyone's Speaker 1 (6:22) terrified. I think that's the thing we have to remember about the Tudors, isn't it? That they come so... quick after the Wars of the Roses. People are terrified of this insurrection, the endless battles. Poor old places like St Albans get it to the neck. The people of St Albans and the various shopkeepers of the country want to get on with their lives and they don't want the Wars of the Roses. So you want this strong monarchy. So you have the Tudors. It's very dodgy. I mean, I am Welsh, so I can say this, but a very dodgy Welsh claim. I mean, the Welsh are somewhat excluded in polite society. And here they are, this Welsh claim coming through Catherine of Valois. Henry VII has used and abused Catherine of Valois' body in Westminster Abbey, left it open to the elements. And everyone can see it because I think he... He wants to disavow his debt to Catherine of Valois. And later on, this is the best thing. It's not the best thing. It's a very bad thing. But much later on, Samuel Pepys decides it's his birthday, his 36th birthday. So he's going to go and kiss a queen. So he goes and gives a great big kiss to Catherine of Valois in Westminster Abbey. So the poor woman is used and abused by goodness knows how many people like Pepys. And I think part of that is Henry VII disavowing his link. to Catherine of Valois and Owen Tudor, but yet claiming he's the man who won on the battlefield, the great king who's allied, the Tudor rose, York and Lancaster are bonded together, and he's got to have this son who takes the throne. So Henry VIII, as a young prince, is rather wrapped in cotton wool, well, Tudor cotton wool. And Speaker 6 (7:55) it's been a hundred years since a... reasonably grown-up male heir has succeeded his father on the throne. So there's been a civil war in the meantime. So everyone's quite excited for this. Henry VII dies. This young prince takes over. Everyone thinks, this is kind of normal service resumed. This is good. Everyone is thrilled. Speaker 1 (8:14) Everyone is delighted with Henry on the throne. He has everything. He's got riches. He's got power. He's got this alliance with Spain. It seems as if he's the great prince. Speaker 1 (8:26) Henry, well, all kings do this, but Henry really drinks his own Kool-Aid, doesn't he? Henry believes his own myth. He believes he's the greatest. And he thinks, ha ha, now what I'm going to do is I'm going to rule France. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to rule Scotland. I'm going to rule France. So his vision is of himself as the most... powerful prince in Europe. I always think it's interesting that he even thinks he could be Holy Roman Emperor at one point. I mean, it's a bit of a change in life, isn't it? You think you can be Holy Roman Emperor and then you break out from the church. Speaker 6 (8:59) Yeah, well, exactly. And he, the man who would be defender of the faith. But anyway, so he is physically impressive. I mean, it's not just the cool, we are told, aren't we, that he was every inch the kind of Prince of the Renaissance Prince? Speaker 1 (9:14) Everyone says that princesses are gorgeous and everyone says that princes are handsome. But I do think Henry was handsome. He was handsome. He was fit. He'd been a great athlete in his youth. I would argue a greater athlete than a scholar. He's perhaps someone at school who would be heading up the ruggers team, but not really doing so well in his maths exam. And Henry is so, you know, he's really, I mean, he's brilliant at presenting himself. All the Tudors know how, as Napoleon put it, to throw glitter in men's eyes, to distract them and dazzle them with monarchy. This is what the Tudors specialise in. And Henry himself specialises in these grand celebrations at court and also public ones, public processions, which Elizabeth I is a brilliant inheritor of. When we look at her coronation, the final triumphal arch through Henry and Elizabeth of York and Anne Boleyn and then Elizabeth. all together. It's this myth-making, this myth-weaving and the use of tableau and spectacle. Henry is brilliant at it and creates this young, fun, international-looking court. And Speaker 6 (10:23) then he has a son and there's a new Prince of Wales and there's more celebrations and then... Speaker 1 (10:29) Seven weeks later, the... little Prince of Wales dies. It is sad. It is sad. They'd even celebrated it with the joust. So Henry put the jousts on. Huge party. The jousts, everything happens and the poor little boy dies. And it is a tragedy. It's so tragic what happens to Henry and Catherine because in every way... She was the perfect consort. People loved her. She was seen as really devoted. She was seen as really pious. And I think out of all of his wives, she was the only one he did truly respect. He did truly see her as a great queen and a great consort. Yes, I think he respected Anne Boleyn in different ways. And yes, Catherine Parr. But certainly with Catherine of Aragon, she was the perfect consort. She's regent for him. goes bonkers on James of Scotland, sends James of Scotland's bloodied coat to Henry while he's fighting the first of his three totally hopeless wars with France. I mean, they are totally hopeless. Speaker 6 (11:31) Well, let's come to that because, so if we have established why Henry is superficially quite attractive as a young king, it's a reasonably good time for England. It seems like normal service, but assumed you've got a sort of magnificent, glittering... king and indeed royal family, the makings of a royal family on the throne. And then let's come on to the fact that actually the reality behind that, which is that, as you say, he uses that kind of capital and just embarks on the stupidest set of wars of France, doesn't he? He's got money in his treasury. He's got youth on his side. He's got a reasonably united political class the first time in a long time. And he just goes and sets fire to it all by trying to replicate the... the successes, if you like, or certainly the endeavours of his ancestors. His Plantagenet forebears, Ebba III, the Black Prince, Henry V, and he invades France. He tries to press this claim to, he tries to restart the Hundred Years' War almost, doesn't Speaker 1 (12:26) he? Yes. I mean, the thought that you could ever get England's possessions in France back. I mean, that's just not going to happen. And, you know, I love it. They're like, oh, everyone, we've got Boulogne now. Oh, great. It's marvellous. Well done. Well done, chaps. And obviously he is sending young men to their deaths. It is serious. But at the same time, we just think, Henry, this is a disaster. And, you know, I really feel that, Dan, you are the military expert. If you think there is nothing salvageable in these hopeless wars. Speaker 6 (12:58) Well, there is nothing salvageable in these hopeless wars because England at this point is not going to conquer France. And secondly, Henry VIII has not seemingly noticed that there is one of the great revolutions of world history happening, which is the Atlantic world's opening up. Christopher Columbus has been to the New World. John Cabot has been to the New World. He's been to Newfoundland, very nice place. And Henry is investing all his time and energy trying to refight medieval battles in France. What are you doing? I just want Speaker 1 (13:21) Normandy! Yes, Speaker 6 (13:22) what are you thinking? Look! West, young man. West. So, okay, so that's catastrophic. He burns through money. He burns through prestige. He burns through, like, he actually, he sort of shows