The Karpis-Barker Gang

Criminology

This episode explores the violent history of the Karpis-Barker Gang during the Great Depression. The hosts detail the criminal exploits of A

Key takeaways

• Alvin 'Crepsy' Karpis was one of only four individuals ever named Public Enemy Number One by the FBI.
• The gang utilized corrupt St. Paul Police Chief Tom Brown to receive warnings about impending law enforcement searches.
• The Kansas City Massacre, which killed an FBI agent, directly led to the policy change allowing FBI agents to carry firearms.
• Criminal physician Joseph Moran helped the gang attempt to erase their fingerprints using acid solutions and plastic surgery.
• High-profile kidnappings included brewery heirs William Hamm Jr. and Edward Bremer Jr., involving massive ransoms.

Main topics

• The Karpis-Barker Gang
• Great Depression Era Crime
• FBI History and Policy

Notable quotes

The real story is even darker than the movies.

Conclusion

The episode provides a chilling look at how economic desperation and l

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:00) The Wonderland murders shocked Los Angeles and exposed a dark underworld of drugs, betrayal, and violence hiding behind the glamour of Hollywood, later inspiring books, films, and decades of speculation. But the real story is even darker than the movies. They Speaker 5 (0:17) thought it was a robbery gone wrong. What detectives found inside this small house on Wonderland Avenue. was a bloodbath so brutal even seasoned investigators were shaken. Four Speaker 4 (0:29) people dead, no forced entry, and one name that kept surfacing, John Holmes. Join us every week on Unlawful Acts as we uncover the people who seem ordinary at first, but reveal something far more dangerous underneath. This is the podcast for people who crave the full story without the filler. Subscribe now to Unlawful Acts wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 1 (0:54) Over the years, I've met people whose lives were changed forever in a single moment. In my new podcast, Before and After, I explore what happens after that decisive moment. Personal, powerful conversations with Colin Kaepernick, Jeremy Renner, Gabby Giffords, and others. Join me wherever you get your podcasts. Search before and after with Lester Holt to listen completely free or subscribe to Dateline Premium to unlock new episodes early. Speaker 6 (1:24) Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. Speaker 3 (2:01) Hello everyone and welcome to episode 426 of the Criminology Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Morf, what's going on this week, buddy? Speaker 2 (2:11) I'm doing pretty good. A little bit busy running around doing errands and stuff like that, but always happy to sit down and record with you. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm doing great. Speaker 3 (2:22) You know, this is my favorite part of the week, right? The research, all of that is what it is. That's the work part. The sitting down and talking about the case, that's the fun part. So I'm Speaker 2 (2:35) ready Speaker 3 (2:35) to get Speaker 2 (2:35) into it. Yeah, and we've got an interesting one today. It's something different, and I like that every once in a while. Speaker 3 (2:43) Yeah, me too. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout-outs. We had one new supporter, and that's Camilla Villani. So that is great support. We really appreciate it. Speaker 2 (2:54) Well, that's awesome, Camilla. Thanks so much, and thanks to everyone else that helped support the show. For anyone else that would like to head over to patreon.com slash criminology to get started. All right, let's jump Speaker 3 (3:05) right into this week's case. And you mentioned it. It's a, it's a little bit of a different type of case. We're discussing one of the most violent and long lasting criminal organizations during the great depression. This group did a lot of bad stuff. And one member of that group, a man named Alvin creepy Carpus was so bad that. He wound up being named public enemy number one by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. He was one of only four men ever to be on that list, along with infamous names like John Dillinger, Pretty Boy Floyd, and Babyface Nelson. All some of the most infamous names in crime. Speaker 2 (3:44) Albin Francis Karpavisius, Albin with a B, who would become known as Alvin Karpis, was born in Montreal, Canada on August 10, 1907. When he was young, his family moved to Topeka, Kansas. By 10 years old, Alvin was already getting into trouble. It seems he never cleaned up his act because when he was 19, he was arrested for attempted burglary and sentenced to 10 years in prison. Somewhere along the way, Alvin got the nickname Creepy, supposedly due to the way he smiled. Speaker 3 (4:15) Creepy didn't take his time behind bars to reflect or change. Instead, he decided to hone his criminal skills. and get into even more trouble. On March 9th, 1929, about three years into his sentence, he escaped with another inmate named Lawrence Duvall. The two made their way nearly 400 miles west, traveling from the State Industrial Reformatory in Hutchinson, Kansas, to Pueblo, Colorado. Once in Pueblo, they stole a car and switched directions. They made their way back east, about 400 miles, to Woodward, Oklahoma. It was during this time that the Great Depression in the U.S. had begun. Poverty, homelessness, bread lines, and soup kitchens made a lot of people, not just criminals, very desperate. But for bad guys like Krupe and Duvall, it made them especially desperate and a lot more dangerous. So, Morf, I've been excited for this episode. I've always had kind of a fascination with this time period. The Great Depression, the gangsters, let's face it, they've been romanticized in movies for many, many years. And these are big names that we're throwing out there. But the idea that the Great Depression caused so many different people to be desperate, it's very true. But then you had people who were already criminals. And that just, you know, kind of pushed them into almost another stratosphere. Speaker 2 (5:55) Yeah, I think it probably, that time period made a lot of people that were desperate for food, to feed themselves or children, you know, maybe do some things they wouldn't normally do. But for criminals that were already into that kind of stuff, it probably just fueled, you know, their desire to go out and... make money any way they could during that time because it was hard to come by. And I just want to say, too, the name Creepy seems like a great moniker to have, even though it might be because he was creepy looking. It's a name that's memorable, like some of those other names we've mentioned, like Babyface and those kinds of names are something you can look back on and remember. It sounds pretty sinister. Speaker 3 (6:44) Yeah. Pretty boy. I mean, it's part of the romanticism though. I mean, I know creepy is not romanticized, but at these people and I definitely in the movies and I think even back when it was happening, there were people rooting for them. You know, you, I don't know that you would have that today, but they were taking what they wanted. They were robbing banks. They were doing all kinds of different things. And somehow everyday ordinary people were kind of like, yeah, I wish I could do that. I think, I don't know what they were thinking, but there were a lot of people who looked at what they did as almost like Robin Hood-ish, which I always have thought was strange. I don't know that they were giving to the poor. I think they were just taking. Speaker 2 (7:38) That romanticism you mentioned, you know, that was long-lasting because look how many Speaker 1 (7:42) gangster movies were inspired by those kinds of people. Speaker 2 (7:45) On March 23, 1930, just over a year after escaping, DeLall caught up with the two fugitives, and both men were arrested together for stealing a car. Creepy was first sent back to the Reformatory and later moved to a different facility, the Kansas State Penitentiary in Lansing. This facility is where he met Fred Barker of the Bloody Barker Gang. who would later become his literal partner in crime. Barker was serving time for bank robbery. In 1931, Creepy was released from prison. By then, his old partner in crime, DeVole, had already been released on parole, but he didn't stick around waiting for Creepy. So Creepy traveled down to Tulsa, Oklahoma, where the Barkers lived. Speaker 3 (8:26) Fred Barker was the youngest son of George and Ma Barker. Ma's birth name was Arizona. but she eventually started going by the alias of Kate. Once her sons were infamous, she became known as Ma. She had four sons, Herman, Lloyd, Arthur, and Fred. By the time Creepy met up with the family in Tulsa, Herman was dead and Arthur and Lloyd were in prison. Herman had taken his own life four years earlier after being pulled over by the police in Wichita, Kansas. He was wanted for killing a police officer. And he didn't want to be taken into custody. Lloyd and Arthur had been arrested for different crimes in 1921. So, Morf, we are throwing around some, you know, let's face it, very infamous names, right, in the world of crime back in the day. Ma Barker, the Barker Gang. I mean, you watch any movie that is based on real-life characters around... you know, gangs of the great depression, you're going to hear all these names. They're going to Speaker 2 (9:35) be in there. Yeah, definitely some, some historic aspects to these names and reminiscent to me of their predecessors, like the James gang, you know, that was sort of a family affair. And I think this was something along those lines. Yeah. Speaker 3 (9:49) That's very interesting. Cause you think about the old West and the gangs, there, there were a lot of family gangs. And I think, The same for like the Speaker 2 (10:02) Great Depression era. So the early gang consisted of Creepy, Fred Barker, and their associates. In June of 1931, just months after Creepy was released, he and Fred Barker were arrested for burglary. They both paid restitution and were released on parole, free to commit more crimes. On December 19, 1931, Fred and Creepy killed Sheriff C. Roy Kelly in West Plains, Missouri. He recognized their car as the vehicle used by suspects in a burglary the day before. As Sheriff Kelly walked toward the car, they shot him. Soon after this, investigators raided the Thayer, Missouri home of Arthur Dunlap, Ma Barker's boyfriend, after getting a tip that a suspicious man was living there. Stolen goods from the December 18th burglary were found in the shed on the property. Investigators believe that Creepy and Fred Barker, or at the very least Fred Barker, were also responsible for the November 1931 murder of Pocahontas Police Department Chief Manly Jackson in Arkansas. He had been gunned down on the side of a highway. Speaker 3 (11:05) And Speaker 2 (11:05) this Speaker 3 (11:06) is why for me, it's hard to believe that some of these figures are romanticized in history and were even looked at at the time as kind of Robin Hood like or cheered on. I mean, they killed a lot of law enforcement officers back then, right? If you got pulled over. It seems like the easiest way out for them was just to kill the person pulling them over. Speaker 2 (11:37) Yeah, there's no doubt they were very ruthless. And, you know, it is strange that people would be rooting on people that were going around murdering people, but that's definitely the case. This was more than a case of Robin Hood stealing from the rich, giving to the poor, that kind of thing. This was pure cold-blooded murder. Suspected in Speaker 3 (11:57) two murders of police officers. The gang, feeling the heat, made their way to Chicago, Illinois. But they had to be careful because gangster Al Capone was already well-established there, and they didn't want to get on his bad side. So instead of staying in Chicago, they settled in Minnesota for a while, specifically St. Paul, where former police chief John O'Connor had encouraged criminals to live by making an agreement that any known criminals who told authorities they were in town. and paid a fee would not be arrested or hassled, provided they didn't commit crimes in the city. There, they worked with Tom Brown, new chief of the St. Paul Police Department, who was extremely corrupt. In exchange for cash, he would warn criminals about searches so they could look squeaky clean or even get out of the area. And this one kind of blew me away more. You have this police chief. actually encouraging criminals, gang members, hey, you know, come live here. As long as you tell us we're here and you pay a fee and you don't commit your crimes in the city, you can live here and you won't be hassled. And on top of that, we'll even warn you, right? If somebody is about ready to come and, and Speaker 2 (13:20) rate. Yeah, that's in your face corruption. That arrangement wouldn't fly today, but I think back then, because people were so desperate, you know, that kickback, that money exchange during those times when money was so short, I think a lot of people would probably be on the take and looking to make an extra buck when they could. Speaker 3 (13:43) Yeah, I think a lot of people, especially in law enforcement, unfortunately, were on the take, you know, back in the day. But I just wonder how much of this is, hey, I don't want to get killed, so I'll just make a deal with these people. If not, they're probably just going to kill me. Speaker 2 (13:58) Yeah, and one interesting thing is they want the criminals to come to town but don't commit crime. So, I mean, do they have to sign a contract or what was the deal there? I wouldn't trust criminals not to commit crimes just because they promise. No, we'll just take their word for it. On April 25, 1932, the owner of the home that Ma Barker was renting in St. Paul became suspicious of the occupants and reported them to the police. She believed she had seen wanted posters from Creepy and Fred Barker, but Chief Brown made sure the tip was not immediately acted upon, and he gave the gang time to flee. On April 26, 1932, the day after the tip