Ep. 056 – Tom Froese – Finding the Why in Commercial Art, Overprints, the One-Brush Brush Pack

Creative Slash

Illustrator and author Tom Froese joins hosts Brad Woodard and Dustin Lee to discuss the realities of maintaining a public creative career as an introvert in

Key takeaways

• Tom Froese reveals he scaled back social media and decommissioned Patreon to focus on direct-to-audience platforms like Podia and Substack after seeing Skillshare revenue share drop significantly.
• Froese discusses his 'resting dad face' and how he adopted a consistent plaid shirt uniform to reduce decision fatigue while maintaining an authentic online persona.

Main topics

• Algorithmic pressure vs. creative authenticity
• Platform dependency and audience ownership

Notable quotes

"I think I'm just a fool. Honestly, there's like two things going on. It's insecurity and also the need... for attention."

Conclusion

The episode offers a grounded roadmap for creatives navigating platform volatility,

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) I remember being more on the production side of things and taking an illustrator's vector files and being like, what the hell is going on? Like, so, this is so Speaker 3 (0:09) dirty. Welcome to the Creative Slash Podcast, where we explore what happens when creativity collides with everything else. I'm Brad Woodard, and I'm joined here with my good friend and co-host, Dustin Lee. This is your weekly dose of real talk about making it as a creative human. In today's episode, we sat down with an illustrator, teacher, writer, and daily drawer Speaker 2 (0:27) who spent a good chunk of his career proving that the best way to figure something out is to just keep showing up and Speaker 3 (0:32) making the thing, even if that thing is making tiny wood replicas of random objects around the house. We talk about how being one of Skillshare's top teachers while juggling commercial work, YouTube, Patreon, social media, and side projects forced him to rethink where he puts his time and energy. We get into the bigger picture and motivation behind being a commercial illustrator, how a naturally introverted person builds a very public career, and of course the important stuff like aliens, faith, and coloring your eyebrows. This is the incredibly thoughtful and always candid Tom Froese. But real quick, before we jump in, if you're enjoying this podcast, you'll love the Off the Record email series. We break down the best habits, tools, and takeaways from each guest, including stuff that never makes it into the episodes. More depth, more insight, all organized to actually help you apply it to your creative work and career. It's free, so sign up today in the show notes. Speaker 3 (1:29) The whole purpose of the podcast is that it wants to be less about just walking through your creative career. And people can hear about that. I'm sure you've already Speaker 2 (1:40) spoken about that plenty of times. So, yeah, we try to kind of hit a balance. Brad originally wanted to, like, have it be all about people's secondary things like you love jogging or. Speaker 1 (1:51) Yeah. Speaker 2 (1:51) Other interests you have, and I wanted to like have it be more like casual, the conversations you have at conferences, like after a couple of drinks in the evening where people actually kind of really start to get into what makes their, their. Speaker 2 (2:03) what would you call it? Like their brains work, you know? And so we kind of Speaker 1 (2:07) do a Speaker 2 (2:07) back and forth of those kind of two subjects. Speaker 1 (2:11) Okay. Yeah. No, I love that. And yeah, I was just at ICON, the illustration conference in Baltimore in July. And I spent some time in the airport with a couple of people. We got totally delayed by like hours and I actually missed my connecting flight. It was a whole thing, but yeah. Some of the best conversations I've had with fellow illustrators happened in that airport just after the conference. Speaker 3 (2:35) Yes. Dude, I've had very similar experiences because you're all heading out to different places, but you're all sitting waiting for your first flight. Yeah, the amount of times I've been able to get like, you know, grab a meal or something with someone I hadn't had a chance to during the conference and just kind of chat. And I had it was a Kate Smith is who I got to chat with that one time when we had her on. We were talking about that entire thing, which we just kept having the same same flight, everything. And it was kind of funny, but it's just nice being able to to talk to people outside of something where it feels like you're it feels like you have to talk about certain things. You know, it's. Like when we typically when we get on podcasts or we're lecturing or anything like that, we have it kind of structured and planned out what we want to say and curated a little bit. And I feel like the most relatable qualities of people aren't the curated bits. Speaker 1 (3:23) Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it's it's a real like I just I don't know. I don't know how to say it. There's there's something about being online in front of everyone. You just kind of I know I don't know what you guys, but like I automatically start filtering a lot. because it's just such a general audience. It's hard to know who to be, like what little valves to let release my personality. Like I'm not like fake or anything like that, but I do find myself pretty restrained sometimes. Speaker 3 (3:54) And you share a lot online too. I mean, you're on all the things. So, and I've seen, because we were both on, I think we started Skillshare around the same time. Speaker 3 (4:06) And I remember seeing your classes and I just think back to the time when we first started, like probably your first Skillshare classes. Was that your first time doing anything online or or seeing like filming yourself online? Definitely. Speaker 1 (4:18) Definitely doing Skillshare classes. I mean, we're going back to like 2015, 2016. Yeah. Yeah. It was. Speaker 3 (4:26) It's a weird feeling, huh? Like. Do you look back now? Do you feel like you've grown significantly? Is it kind of weird to see yourself in those first videos and be like, doesn't even feel like me? Speaker 1 (4:37) Oh, totally. I mean, you just, you learn how to be yourself on camera. And in spite of everything I just said, you do learn how to relax on camera and just talk like you're talking to someone is, and I think we're all better at that because we all, that's all we do is talk to cameras now, but definitely then like I'd have my. camera set up on a tripod. I didn't have a teleprompter. I'd have like these sheets that I printed in a big font so that I could see it. And, and just like trying to, like, I look at those and it's funny to me that that class that I can't take it down, like it's there on Skillshare forever. And it's so old. I'm so young. Uh, like that, that's fine. I don't mind that, but yeah, definitely I've gotten more. In many ways, just I'm I'm terrible at compared to like people who do it professionally, like there's stuff that I just will never learn, no matter how hard I try, like how to light a room, how to color grade stuff like that. But definitely how to hold myself on camera. I think I think I've gotten better at. Yeah. Speaker 3 (5:42) Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's one of those things, too. It just feels like it's you just have to suffer through it. And honestly, the fact that it doesn't go away. really helps. I don't know, you know, it sucks because sometimes you're like, oh, I could put out something better, but it's similar to like the idea of like when you're sketching, you know, some artists will say they like to sketch with a pen instead of a pencil because they can't erase it. They just have to keep all the bad ideas there to see them and continue moving forward. That's kind of how I feel about filming yourself. Like early on, I see all those things and I, I look back at my old YouTube videos and things and, uh, it really it's, it's. cool to see my progress, but also I think it's kind of good to see where it started because I think that really does help moving forward. Then I can kind of critique it and it doesn't go away so I remember where I was failing and try harder for the next one. Speaker 2 (6:35) What's your version of that? Like when you were first, of what Brad was saying, like when you were first building momentum and Skillshare and kind of creating a public-facing profile. Speaker 2 (6:47) What were you doing a lot that felt sort of unglamorous at the time but ended up making a big difference later? Does that make sense? Like stuff? Speaker 1 (6:57) Yeah, actually, I don't quite understand. Speaker 2 (7:00) Yeah, yeah. So, like, when you're kind of, you're, you kind of seem like a paradox a little bit to me. It seems like you're a private person, it comes across to me, and yet at the same time, you're highly well-known online, you put yourself out there. a lot online. So yeah, I guess like what, uh, what pulls you towards doing that? And how did you first get into doing that? Cause I'd imagine that wasn't something where you're like, you know, it sounds really fun to me is to put myself on video publicly for scrutiny constantly. Like, so what was the pool that of things that made that happen? I Speaker 1 (7:34) think I'm just a fool. Uh, I, I think honestly, there's like two things going on. It's insecurity and also the need. the need and yeah, I'll say the need for attention, not in a bad way, but just, you know, I'm, I'm comfortable putting myself out there to do what I need to do. And that's how I started my career. I'd reach out to people and fawn over them and, you know, tell them how, like I would make friends basically in the industry and reach out. And, and that's how I got my first internship with a cool little studio. That's how I got, um, a lot of things. that sort of came my way it's because I came to them first and so I'm okay doing that but then on the other side of that there's the insecurity part and so I don't know I don't think that that's I hope that's not that unique well Speaker 3 (8:26) it hasn't slowed you down that's for sure it actually reminds me of your your you had an article uh was it back in 2020 2021 or something like that on medium and you were talking about your relationship with running And can you try to compare it to your, you Speaker 2 (8:40) know, Speaker 3 (8:41) running means such a big deal to you and comparing that to your creative career. But one part that stuck out to me is kind of what you're talking about now, as you were saying, like, yeah, like the, the, it being hard as part of it, like, that's not, that's, that's, you know, that, that's not going to stop me from doing it. Like that's actually part of the motivation for it. And same thing with your creative career. You just kind of power through it. Like the sucky times because what are the rewards on the other end? So it seems like it's a seems like a recurring theme. Yeah. Speaker 1 (9:08) Like where it comes to teaching, I don't mind being on camera. I love doing workshops in person. Like I did a workshop at Icon when I was there in July. And I really like that. Like I'm very introverted and I being with people for a certain length of time will drain me in some context, especially if if like it's like more performative, like you would be in a workshop. And so I'll need to leave after that and kind of decompress in some way. But yeah, I think I don't mind being on camera and recording. Sometimes it's like just navigating that line between what is relevant to this thing. Because I'm a rambler. I think the stressful thing for me, the thing that I don't enjoy, is when I get stuck in that... questioning or just you're self-conscious. I'm self-conscious about my line and where I am in it. The thing that brings out the worst in me, and I don't know if you're a YouTuber with your silver plaque there, Brad. Oh, this whole thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you should be totally proud of that. I think that's amazing. Thank you. But it just, for me, it throws me for a loop. I feel like I have something interesting to say. And then in the early days, you just get like, comments, positive, negative, whatever. So that's one form of feedback. And then I'm like, maybe I ramble too much. Maybe I should get to the point sooner. That's fair. That's fine. But now the algorithm's telling you like, you have to have the hook and then frame the problem and then dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And so I find myself torn between writing the way I talk. And writing the way the algorithm or, you know, it's kind of Speaker 3 (10:53) a Speaker 1 (10:53) little assistant thing that tells you, like, what you should be making a video next about. I really struggle with that. And that gets me in my head. Yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about? A Speaker 3 (11:03) thousand Speaker 1 (11:03) percent. Speaker 3 (11:05) Yeah, because you're struggling keeping your own voice. You want it to be your thing, your voice as authentic as possible. But the problem I noticed a lot of times when doing this kind of stuff is, like you said, maybe your cadence is super slow. You know, and maybe you're just a super chill, like yourself, you're a very super chill speaker. You're clear, you're concise. And that's why I think you're a really good teacher. And people probably really resonate with your classes because the content is great in your delivery. It's subjective, right? Everybody likes a different type of person, like that speaking to them or teaching them. But I do notice that that is something that you constantly have to struggle with is trying to figure out which way it's going to be like. Like on shorts, for example, YouTube shorts are really tricky or reels. You almost have to jump and grab their attention immediately or else they're going to leave. You have a few seconds. So you almost have to say something or you have to have something. You have to embellish it a little bit to get a hook. And it feels very disingenuous to me. And every time I do it, I kind of get, because I'm trying to figure out what the algorithm likes, it feels very cringy for me. Yeah, there's this little. tussle, inner turmoil of being like, I want to be me, but I also want people to see what I'm talking about. Speaker 1 (12:20) Yeah. You kind of have to ham it up a bit or kind of, I've heard people say, and I can see how this is true. When you're on camera, everything has to be exaggerated because the camera doesn't pick up things that happen in real life. And so you almost have to be a stylized version of yourself and you might feel cringy about it, but it is just. It's not just an algorithm or a tech thing. I think it's just as old as film. Like you have to wear makeup and light things dramatically or whatever. I guess that's how it is. But it's about finding that line. Like what can you actually keep up doing? What feels, for me, it's very important to feel genuine. And like I'm not just sort of doing some, following some rule or something. The rules I try to use as a guideline. But it's sometimes I ignore them sometimes to my detriment. But, you know, if it wasn't for that kind of like having to shape yourself according to, you know, that structure, I don't think I would have gotten from the little, those early classes, deer caught in headlights, kind of looking at the camera, not really having that camera presence. If it wasn't for all the like professionalism that we're all learning. through being on social media, I guess I wouldn't even be as, for whatever it is, as good as I am now. I Speaker 2 (13:48) feel like it creates like a weird, it's not a snake in its tail. I don't know what it is. It's like, I think when people start being uncomfortable and then they start to become like, like you're saying, performative or you start to hear formulas like, you know, attention, get attention, then interest, then desire for action and action is right. The ADIDA formula for, for sales and whatnot. And then I feel like people eventually get so comfortable with it that they almost stop doing it. Like some of my favorite people that I see online are people, for instance, love him or hate him as politics. I don't even know where people stand on this anymore, but Theo Vaughn, I find to be so hilarious so often. And if you were to look at him and be like, he wouldn't be a good case study. or showing someone that has a hook and then expands on something and then ends with some sort of insight. Sometimes it doesn't make any sense. And yet I feel like most people that we truly, truly love online and feel like we know have stopped using the format. You know what I mean? Well, Speaker 1 (14:49) I think someone like a comedian, like. Theo Vaughn or Marc Maron or any of these people who will go on these algorithmically transgressive rants or whatever their monologue is or whatever their style is. They are interesting people. They have something that makes them who they are and famous and everything. But then the rest of us, maybe, I'll speak for myself, following the guidelines helps me. It gives me the crutch that I need, I guess. I think this is something that... I don't mean to be overly vulnerable, but it's something that I do struggle with. Like I'm pretty deadpan. Even when I'm like laughing and feeling hilarious on the inside, it's still my face is like a robot. Like I have a resting dad face basically. My Speaker 2 (15:35) kids are like, why don't you ever laugh, dad? Speaker 1 (15:37) And like I was just making some user generated content for a client recently. I know that sounds really glamorous, but. So sexy. Yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm like laughing hilariously right now on the inside. You can't tell, but I was Speaker 2 (15:53) supposed, Speaker 1 (15:56) I'm supposed to be like showing this scenario where I'm trying to draw and it's frustrating and I'm, I'm, I'm not an actor, but I'm, I'm like trying my best. And I know, like, I'm aware of how dumb I'm being. Like, I'm trying to pretend like I'm just making my kids laugh, but I look at my, my side, like, it's like a side view of me. And I look angry. And I'm like, no wonder people always think I'm pissed off. I feel like this is Speaker 2 (16:25) an eyebrow thing. Do you feel like there's an eyebrow issue happening? Because I feel like some people, like Brad kind of has his eyebrows painted on a little higher, like in an open arc a little bit. And mine tend to be villainous and go down like this. And so I can just have a resting face and it looks like I'm creating like... You kind of have a scowl. You kind of have burnt eyebrows. Speaker 1 (16:45) You have burnt eyebrows. Yeah, yeah. It's working Speaker 2 (16:47) against me. I'm not going to say for you, like I don't see it as much in you, but I think a lot of us are dealing with Speaker 1 (16:52) that handicap. I just don't think Speaker 2 (16:52) you see eyebrows Speaker 1 (16:52) in me. I don't. Speaker 2 (16:55) You have blonde eyebrows, so they're kind of blending in a little bit. Speaker 1 (16:58) They blend in. It's another thing that I'm like, couldn't I just have like. Like, I'm not going to go and dye or tattoo my eyebrows, but I'm like, that might give me a little on-camera flair. I won't even do the, like, filter eyebrows. It's just like, you get what you get, and that's what you got to work with. There's, like, mascara Speaker 2 (17:15) pencils. I tried that one time, and then, like, my niece pointed it out to me, like, within, like, one minute of walking out in front of everybody. And then I was like, well, that was humiliating. Dustin, I Speaker 3 (17:26) had the exact same thing happen. freaking crystals. Like, let me draw some eyebrows on you. Cause mine are like pretty faint. And so she's like, let me draw some eyebrows. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I pushed back for so long. And then she finally, I was like, okay, whatever. I'm curious to see what I'd look like with, with full eyebrows. So she did the little, you know, little pencil and she did it. And we were just about to go to the store as the family. And I walked out of the bathroom. I was really self-conscious. I'm like, everybody's going to know. Everybody's going to know. She's like, who's going to know? Walked outside. Literally my daughter goes. Whoa, what happened to your face, dad? And I was like, well, there you go. Shattered all my confidence. That happened to me Speaker 2 (18:01) too. But my daughter knew right away. Your eyebrows, right? Or like I dyed Speaker 3 (18:07) my Speaker 2 (18:07) beard. Your beard is darker. They don't Speaker 1 (18:10) look Speaker 2 (18:10) and say, wow, you look young. Speaker 3 (18:12) You Speaker 2 (18:12) look great. But that's because they know your face so well. Because I have gone out with like my beard dyed or with whatever makeup pencils. So embarrassing to admit this. I have done it because they're disappearing on the edges. I don't think either people don't notice or they're like, you do you, Dustin. And either way, like... Part of it is just owning it. Speaker 1 (18:35) Yeah, it's just owning it. You know, one thing that... Like, I'm just waiting for my eyes to go, like, a little bad. Like, I have perfect vision for the most part, except for night, night driving. I do wear, like, very faint prescription for driving, but... I wouldn't mind wearing glasses to frame my face a little more. And I did, I went through like a minute, like probably like almost 10 years ago when I was like, what would I look like in frame? So I bought some frames. I was like, maybe I could wear these. And then I was like, I can't be that guy. That's like, I don't want to be the guy wearing glasses kind of. Speaker 1 (19:16) Like people who have glasses like Dustin, you can tell me, but I'm sure that there are many times when you would love to just not have to wear glasses. You Speaker 2 (19:25) know what? Like I'm actually, I wanted glasses. In fact, I own, this is going to be the episode where I admit to so many like embarrassing, like Speaker 3 (19:33) cringy Speaker 2 (19:34) things about myself. I probably own 15 to 20 pairs of glasses. Took these out. I do need glasses. But when I first started trying wearing glasses, I did the same thing. I was like. I was like, maybe this will help to, like you said, exaggerate some character in me, right? And let's face it, designers kind of go hand in hand with kind of thick rimmed glasses. And so I did, and I felt a little weird about it. But then my eyes actually did go bad, like right when I hit 40, and they just consistently keep getting worse. And I don't know, I still kind of like it. I don't like to wear them all the time. I just use them for reading. But I don't know, man. I kind of like dressing up a little bit, you know? Feeling like I'm getting, you know, the world's a stage just getting into like a character, which I feel like we're all doing. And Speaker 3 (20:19) anyone Speaker 2 (20:19) who says they're Speaker 3 (20:19) not is lying. Like, Tom, Speaker 2 (20:22) you look like an illustrator. You don't look like an accountant. I think you started in computer engineering. Maybe that, but you look kind of like an illustrator poet. Like, and I don't think it's a coincidence, you know? Speaker 1 (20:32) Okay. Are you talking to Brad or to me? To you. Oh, I look like an illustrator poet. That's nice. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you got a really good shaped beard. We dress who we are. Speaker 2 (20:45) Thanks, I spend time on it. You know what I'm saying, Brad? Yeah. We Speaker 3 (20:50) dress our role, even if Speaker 2 (20:51) we don't know we Speaker 3 (20:52) are. And it's interesting, like, you know, we talk about our insecurities all the time on here, Dustin. I think it just goes with our age also. And then we're seeing each other and ourselves every single week on these videos. Speaker 2 (21:08) But no, Speaker 3 (21:09) I think that kind of just goes back to just your presence in general online and trying to curate that presence. But sometimes you kind of feel like you're holding back. And I always look at like, you know, like celebrities, like musicians and things. I'm like, oh, how cool would it be to just, you know, whatever you want, like your style. You see these like NBA players or NFL players after they get out of like in the locker room and they're dressed with the most wild. outfits and I'm like it'd be kind of cool to experiment with some wild outfits Speaker 1 (21:40) like I wonder what's Speaker 3 (21:41) your Speaker 1 (21:41) wild outfit like what like when you're when you're starting to daydream about you walking out of the locker room oh it's or like into the lobby of the next conference like what do you wear that's a Speaker 3 (21:50) great question I Speaker 1 (21:51) know what it is we should start epic sweaters we should Speaker 3 (21:54) we should like what's yeah mine would probably be epic colorful pattern covered sweaters. I have a couple that I bust out every so often. My kids used to joke it was like the coat of many colors because I wore it to church and had all these crazy colors on it. And I was like, I don't know. You always got people talking to you about it and it felt nice. There's just something about it that just made you feel kind of special when you wore it. But Speaker 1 (22:19) yeah. If you like it, if you feel good in it, then that's great. Like I sometimes imagine, like I like subtle style. I like, I like. when things are kind of, I don't know what the word is. Is sartorial a word? Like, um, kind of, Speaker 3 (22:33) I get it. I Speaker 1 (22:34) don't know. Like it's cool, but it's more indie. It's not trendy things like this is like, I think I'm still locked in the 2010s of like the hipsterism, but like the idea of like having like your pants rolled too high and wearing nice red wing boots and, and stuff like that. I, I like nice stuff like that, but I also don't like drawing. using clothes to draw attention to myself no judgment for other people when i do it i feel like i'm being phony and and like there's a line up to which i i like dressing well or if it's for a wedding obviously like i'll wear a nice suit and i love i love doing that like i'll go all gq if there's a wedding but every day i'm i'm my dad's son like he he just wore a uniform he wore jeans shirt and blue jeans and a turtleneck under it. And that was his uniform. I'm getting close to that. Like I have my jean shirt. That is a look though. Speaker 2 (23:34) I can see that being a good look though. Speaker 1 (23:37) It's kind of like, I think Steve Jobs kind of dressed that way. Yeah, Speaker 2 (23:40) I could Speaker 1 (23:40) see that. Yeah. And I like, I think the problem is with me is that I... I think too much about what I'm wearing if it's a little bit different than what I normally wear. And so I like I'm just wearing a boring old black sweatshirt here. My I've decided that for most of my content, whether it's teaching a class or doing YouTube videos that I have to do sometimes, my uniform is a plaid shirt. It can be any plaid shirt, but it's a plaid shirt and it's normal. It's it's just there. And. Yeah, I was going back through my YouTube catalog when I was on a flight recently. I had internet and I had a lot of time to go. I'm like, I'm going to audit my YouTube channel now. And so I hadn't done it in a long time. And it kind of just speaking about this whole topic of like growing up on camera in front of people and you see this backlog of things. I've decided to leave it all up. Just it's like it is what it is. But yeah, just like I. I kind of didn't like how inconsistent my uniform was. I wanted to be more, a little bit more consistent, especially just as an online persona. Yep. Speaker 3 (24:53) Dude, I've thought about that so many times and done the exact same thing. I did it for Brave Kids Club. I actually wore the same red hoodie for a long time. And then I realized one of my video buddies was like, that's the worst color. It was like a, it was like a bright red hoodie. They're like, that's the worst color to edit. Cause you can't get your skin tones the Speaker 1 (25:14) right Speaker 3 (25:14) color because it'll, it'll adjust them both at the same time. So it looks really weird. And so I got rid of that and I started going with a black shirt. Um, but anyway, yeah, I think about that all the time too. And I look back and like, I feel like I need some consistency. You almost think it's like part of a brand, right? Like you want people to come back and be like, oh. Like I recognize this person there. They're kind of wearing the thing. And maybe if we're, I was at like a conference, they'd recognize me because it's just the same uniform. Part of it for me is just, it takes away some of the guesswork out of the process. Cause there's so many things you could do. Speaker 1 (25:45) I Speaker 2 (25:45) think about clothes constantly as I, as I get older and maybe it's cause I have a little more money now that I'm, you know, gotten older and, you know, been working and saving for a long time. And then you start to be like, wow. I could get this if I want to try it, but I feel like it. in the same way that your work does it creates like a shorthand for who you are some i think a good wardrobe is important whether it's just the same thing you wear every day or it's diverse because i think that sort of like um my dad used to say well i used to play i still play guitar but i was really thought i was going to do guitar as a career and he used to say that great guitar players you could play a single note and know who they were just by that note Speaker 1 (26:28) and Speaker 2 (26:29) you sort of feel like you want someone to be able to see know who it is almost by the outfit like we could put certain two pieces of clothing down and know that it's aaron draplin you could without knowing aaron draplin see his clothing and take a pretty good guess at who he is i think we could with you too like i think like yeah you kind of like you can derive that like and be like oh yeah totally i think a good thing totally Speaker 1 (26:52) no and i think that that would actually be a fun like i guess you'd have to get a bunch of illustrators together for this, but it'd be a fun party game to like just show the clothes without the person and see if you can guess who it is. I think our illustrators designers on your podcast. Yeah. It's that, that, that's fascinating. Um, I noticed Brad that you're on, on your web, on your YouTube channel. Um, they haven't posted a while. Are you doing that still? Or for, Speaker 3 (27:23) for which brave, the woods are brave kids. Yeah. I think Brave Speaker 1 (27:26) Kids Club or both. I think with Brave the Woods, I feel like that I understand that a little bit more, I think. But yeah, the kids club. Yeah. Are you still doing that? I Speaker 3 (27:35) am. Yeah. Yeah. So most of Speaker 1 (27:37) the Speaker 3 (27:37) stuff is on shorts. So if you see stuff on there, that's just because it's the it's it's quick. It's easy for me when I'm really swamped. This is actually a question I was going to ask you. When I get really swamped, I start to slow down on a lot of my side projects. Cause you're, you know, you focus on what, like the bird in the hand thing, right? Like if this is, if this project is paying me, um, so that's typically what happens. I have a lot of side hustles and then I focus on the one that's making me the money right now. And, and, uh, and so, yeah, that I was going to ask you the same question. So yes, I'm still doing that, but I noticed because you do so many different things. Is that similar to you? Like, do you