Ep. 054 – Van Berkemeyer – Design, Music, and the Empty Chase for the Next High
Creative Slash
Van Berkemeyer discusses his dual creative careers as illustrator/designer and musician Van Andrew, reflecting on viral success, the emptine
Key takeaways
- Success doesn't provide lasting fulfillment—chasing peaks leads to a cycle of dissatisfaction.
Main topics
- Juggling multiple creative careers
- The illusion of peak success
Notable quotes
That's the paradigm shift is when you start to realize that maybe you're the asshole.
Conclusion
Van Berkemeyer's journey reveals that creative fulfillment isn't found
Transcript preview
Speaker 2 (0:00) That's the paradigm shift is when you start to realize that maybe you're the asshole. Speaker 3 (0:04) Oh, yeah, but I'm not. But yeah, I could totally see how you'd see that. Totally. You can see where I'm coming from. Welcome to the Creative Slash Podcast, where we explore what happens when creativity collides with everything else. I'm Brad Woodard, and I'm joined here with my good friend and co-host, Dustin Lee. This is your weekly dose of real talk about making it as a creative human. In today's episode, we sat down with an illustrator, musician, former cowboy, and our dear friend who spent most of his creative life bouncing between worlds. That and figuring out how to stop measuring life by whatever success is supposed to look like. We talk about getting picked by Gwen Stefani on The Voice, why chasing the same creative high can waste years of your life, making a sad cowboy song that goes viral, and how maybe the goal isn't to have everything figured out, but to stay curious enough to keep following whatever comes next. But don't worry, we also get into the really important stuff like aliens, ice walls, and cigars. This is the deeply thoughtful and talented Van Berkmeyer. But real quick, before we jump in, if you're enjoying this podcast, you'll love the Off the Record email series. We break down the best habits, tools, and takeaways from each guest, including stuff that never makes it into the episodes. So more depth, more insight, all organized to actually help you apply it to your creative work and career. It's free, so sign up today in the show notes. Speaker 1 (1:25) I'll start just to get it out of the way. I just had to tell you. So I did dig. It was almost like the government had scrubbed the voice off of YouTube somehow. I eventually found something with like 125 views from someone that was doing a reaction video to you on there. And that's Speaker 3 (1:44) how Speaker 1 (1:44) I found you. I didn't know much about it. I was kind of familiar with you were on it. And I was like, that's really impressive that he's that good of a singer. You know, because I was not familiar with your music at that point. Um, but turns out me and you have a shared friend. So I was friends way back in the day. You can kind of see here's me back in my probably most awkward looking stage of my life. I got, that's when my acne was just getting going. Um, looking a little weird there, but here I am. Oh my gosh. With Gwen Stefani. I had ran into her at the San Jose airport. This is right after just a girl came out and I was like, she was sitting on a little makeup, um, suitcase thing. next to the, this is before 9-11. So there was no like big TSA thing. She's sitting there and she's dressed, just decked out as you can see in this picture. And I was like, this, she's, who is this? I didn't recognize her. I was like, who is this girl? She looks like a Gwen Stefani wannabe. I can't believe all this stuff she's wearing. It's over the top. And then people came up and started getting, you know, some autographs. And I was like, wait a second, maybe that is her. She was so nice. She, I went over to her, asked who she was, like if she was really Gwen Stefani. She said, yeah. And then she like invited me to sit down and they'd only had just a girl out for a couple months. And she ended up, I don't know, talking to me for probably 20 minutes, like legitimately 20 minutes. She just like, she showed me her past thing and told me about what it was like to tour and what it was like to kind of start to get recognized from the video. And anyway, so we, we share a, uh, an acquaintance across two decades, essentially. Speaker 2 (3:14) That's amazing, dude. Like Gwen is a sweetheart. And obviously this was like. what six years ago i think um but i have a couple gwen stories i also signed a bunch of ndas so there's one that i really would love to share but i'm not going to um that i found out about years later uh anyway after i got kicked off the show i made about halfway through the voice um She came and found me backstage, which was like not normal. Like the only time you have interactions with the coaches is when the cameras are rolling. And she was super sweet, stood and talked to me for a while and was like really encouraging. But yeah, she was awesome. That's so wild. That's so random. Speaker 1 (4:00) What's your, what's my takeaway at the time, you know, for my 20 minutes with her, which is nothing, was that she was super, and she was just. becoming famous at that point when she was super super super humble she showed everything to me when i asked for a picture i felt weird about it at first but then i did she went and grabbed the band they were sitting in a different area of the airport just hanging out and got them and um what was your like impression was she did you feel like she was like kind of the same or do you feel like something happens over that period of time with somebody um She was very kind. And Speaker 2 (4:34) honestly, the rate, she was my coach and on the voice. And so the, the reason that, yeah, the, she picked me, she was like, Speaker 1 (4:43) he's good, Speaker 2 (4:43) which was like power couple. Um, and, um, she, but I went with her. One of the main reasons was, is cause she was just so like encouraging and over the top and just like, I really love your voice. I love your look like all of all that. And so, yeah, so that. obviously when someone's on camera and you're that level of celebrity, like there's a, there's a certain PR-ness to it, but coming backstage and finding me and talking face to face, she didn't have to do that. And I feel like, you know, obviously I didn't meet her back when you did, but yeah, it was a great experience. Very kind. Yeah. That's crazy. We found it. Yeah. That's my lore, if you will. Speaker 1 (5:23) If you guys are still talking, say hi for me. I'm sure she remembers. I'm Speaker 3 (5:27) sure she does. Speaker 2 (5:28) I'll Speaker 3 (5:29) let Speaker 2 (5:29) her know. Yeah. She's actually just texting me right now. Speaker 3 (5:33) I remember when you told me that. Van, because you were telling me you're going to be on The Voice. And you and I had to sit down and we went to lunch. And I think it was, was that Creative South or was that Circles Conference? When you and I had lunch. It Speaker 2 (5:47) was Creative South. And I think I remember the day you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 3 (5:51) I remember you and I kind of, we connected, I think, online. And then I knew you were going to be there at Creative South. And we found each other. And I was like, let's just, you know, be. Good to go chat and get to know each other a little bit better over lunch. And like, like you do at those conferences, I love get that face-to-face time. But I remember you talking about way back then, a little, like you just, you weren't even talking crazy serious about your music career, but you were, you had mentioned it. And I was like, Oh, I had no clue. I didn't, I didn't know that this was another side of you. And you're actually one of the reasons, one of the, one of the people that inspired this podcast, by the way, I don't think I ever told you that. Really? Yeah. It was you. And I remember talking to people like Brad Weaver and Scott Fuller about just, you know, you have this other side to you that almost surprised me. You know, I was like, oh, I had no clue that you're talented at this thing. And you have this hidden talent that you could be equally successful on the other end of that. And so I thought that was really neat. But then I heard you're going on The Voice and there's this whole new. Van as the, as the musician and how, how is it? Cause I feel like being you're in two worlds. It seems like you're trying to chase two, two dreams. We talked to a lot of designers and that have given up on the music side because it was just so challenging to go down that road and then continue in their design career for yourself. What's that journey been like trying to figure out, is there like a strong push and pull from. One during when it one successful and then the other one kind of takes a back seat. And then how is that working for you? It feels being talented at both. Speaker 2 (7:30) It, you know, this saying like jack of all trades, master of none. That's usually how it feels is like, I feel like I'm failing at everything. Uh, no, but I don't know. I think that it's pretty common in the creative world. If you dig deep enough that. If you're if you are inspired or talented or gifted in a certain creative field, chances are there's another interest, at least if not a whole nother layer of like something you're good at. And so what's interesting, how has it been? It's been interesting to juggle, but my dad used to have a saying where he'd say, you can do whatever you want. You just can't. Or you can do anything you want, you just can't do everything. And I have since added to that adage and said, you can do anything you want, you just can't do everything at the same time. And my life has just been this like, I Speaker 3 (8:29) don't Speaker 2 (8:30) know, just this trail of collecting stories, if you will, and experiences. And even today, like I'm in my 30s now, I don't know how long each one's going to last. Like the illustration work has been going really well lately. The music has had its moments, but five years from now, I might be a tour guide out in the Rockies or something. I really, I don't know. Um, and so, I mean, I, I used to be a cowboy when I was a teenager in Oklahoma. So it's like my, you know, storyline is, this is just a piece of that, I guess, but it's a long winded way of saying. Speaker 2 (9:06) I'm really glad you asked about that because I moved to Nashville. I live in Nashville. I moved to Nashville to focus on the music. I've had over a decade of experience in the graphic design world, illustration, arts. That's how we met. But I really wanted to focus on music, was trying to white knuckle it, really was running with it. And this past year, I kind of surrendered a lot of that and was just like, you know what? What's meant to be will be. A lot of stuff has died off in the music world. And my... you know, design illustration career has been, you know, thriving and doing well. And I feel very blessed on that end. And so it was kind of a little bit of a death when it came to the music. And then just recently, literally within the past like week or two, I connected with one of the band members in the Lone Bellow, which is a band here in Nashville. And he has a studio and we've started tracking a new record. So it looks like the music might be coming back, making some more sad cowboy music. So we'll see. Speaker 3 (10:01) Drop to me in six months. Speaker 2 (10:03) So it's just a perfect, it's a push and pull, man. It's just like you make time for one, then you really dig in another. And, you know, a lot of times a story writes itself. You try and invest into things, but I can't force, I can't force a, my song that went viral on Tik TOK that led to a lot of things. And like, I can't force the like connection with this poster design. Like you just, you do what you can and you know, see what happens. Dude, how does that feel? Speaker 3 (10:30) Like it, not, not everybody gets to feel the way that you do where you, you feel like, uh, I think if someone from the outside looking in could see you as a musician and see, say like, wow, you got, you know, Gwen Stefani picked you on the voice and you were on the voice and then you had, you know, you had an album and then you had a song that went viral on Tik TOK. And I saw, you know, I saw you perform when, uh, who was it that we were, who did you open for your opening? Uh, we were in Boise. It was, um, Oh, yeah. Yeah, we were on Cyrus. Noah Speaker 2 (11:03) Cyrus. Cyrus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Noah Cyrus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 3 (11:07) Yeah, yeah. So like from the outside looking in, you could easily say people have been like, oh, these are a lot of benchmarks that show success. And this is like you've arrived. But it feels like you hit them and then you find success. Something that kind of peters off or fizzles. And then you go to something else and you go chase that thing, too. Like what keeps you? motivate because I feel like those are extreme highs and extreme lows perhaps maybe maybe I'm over exaggerating but it kind of feels like you're you're going uh pretty extreme on either end Speaker 2 (11:36) well therapy helps um but no I you know dude I don't know because I think I'm learning as I get older to take a beat and to step back and really be grateful for the opportunities I've had. Because in the creative world, I think it's more common than not that you're moving at such a fast pace that you don't even celebrate your wins usually. Like you get one project out the door and you're already talking to the next person about the next thing. And so. Um, it goes the same in both music and illustration. And so I'm trying to learn how to pause and say, van, like, this is crazy. You're a little farm kid from the middle of nowhere, Texas that dreamed of being a cowboy. And now you've gotten to do all these incredible things that can be objectively looked at and said, that's success. The problem is, is that I'm such a competitive person. My level of like success is constantly moving. So it wasn't just like, oh, I want to meet these people and sing with this person and like put out a record. It's like, no, I want to be on full time tour with this or I want to have a record that does this or I want to, you know, design for Billy Strings or like whatever the thing is. It just constantly it's hard to accept what you've won when you're looking for. But I think that is also if it's healthy, can be a motivator, you know, where you're it's all ever changing, man, because like. But what's that line? Speaker 3 (13:10) What's that line? I don't mean to cut you off. I just, this is something I struggle with too, is like, I'm trying to figure out, you know, what's that line of it's, you know, it's, it's motivation on one hand, like you need enough of that to be motivated, goal oriented. But is there, I guess therapy, you said, like could probably help you put into perspective and step back. But are there, are there other, other ways that you've found to, to help you kind of keep everything? I don't know, like. Cause I do this all the time. I, I, you're right. It feels like when you, as soon as you said that, I felt like it resonated because you are onto the next thing. It's like, yeah, that was great. Six. That was a success. Now move on to the next thing. I'm probably going to hate that thing in a little bit. Anyways, you got to move on to the next thing. Like, you know what I think? Speaker 2 (13:53) Yeah. I, the line is that you will never, and I'm going to get a little philosophical here, but I'm just fine. Speaker 2 (14:02) You'll never actually find that fulfillment you're looking for in these benchmark success moments. You'll find the fulfillment in gratitude, thankfulness. For me, I have a deep sense of faith. And so like my identity is in a different place now. And so I think if you're harnessing, which I have for many years, your identity to your creativity, then you'll never feel that. But if I can in turn look at it as a exciting thing, then that that line really is just like what gets me excited, like what gets me motivated to keep creating? Because I think that's a healthy way. It's like, oh, this new client coming in, they're going to be super fun. They're going to be really exciting. They're like a dream client or like this new, you know, song that I'm working on in the studio. I actually feel excited about making music again. I think that's actually the thing that's like a positive motivator when it's like, man, I want to like, you know, have 100,000 monthly listeners on Spotify. It's like, well, you're already, you've lost already. Like that's an unattainable thing because you have no control over that. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I'm learning that I'm shifting how I view success. Success is like finding that gratitude and peace. Um, and stability and like, uh, in God really. Um, and then, and just kind of what you do, um, and being excited about what you do, because I mean, we could all rattle off the successes we've had and it's just like, they're impressive, but how does that make you feel? You know, you've drawn some really cool pictures of food, but you're hungry. You know, that's just, it just doesn't. Speaker 1 (15:51) It occurred to me at some point because I think anyone who operates at a high level or tries to achieve success in music or design, which I think oftentimes go hand in hand, it occurred to me that let's say like I really want, when I was a teenager, let's say there was like a pair of shoes I really wanted. And so they're hard to attain, right? Because I don't really have a lot of income. It's hard to get. You think about them. You think about once I get those shoes, I'll never need any other shoes again. Those are going to finally make me feel complete in some way, right? And then two months goes by and your birthday happens or a holiday happens and you get it. And two or three weeks later, you realize that it actually didn't fill the need. You actually still feel the same and you start seeing that there's other shoes, etc. And I noticed that like I... really strive for musical fame in my 20s, didn't get anywhere near it, but I tried to. And then I really chased design and then money in my business for years. And I realized, oh, this is exactly the same as the shoes. The difference is that these things take years or decades to achieve, and you only realize after the years or decades that once you get it, it lasts about the same amount of time as the shoes. The problem is... You had to pay the price of a much longer time horizon to realize that. Speaker 2 (17:14) Yeah. Speaker 1 (17:14) And I feel like I started to realize that a lot with like chasing money in my business. I was like, oh, you never get enough. I mean, you get it and then you want to get more and then you start tying your identity into it. And then people start saying, well, you're the guy that does this and you're Speaker 2 (17:28) the Speaker 1 (17:28) guy that knows a lot about that. Speaker 2 (17:29) Yeah. And Speaker 1 (17:30) it kind of starts to hollow you out where you start to feel like, well, if I'm not that anymore, then who am I to these people? Yeah. Speaker 2 (17:36) Dude, that's so... That's, that's such a good observation. And I, I am grateful that coming up in the creative world, I was never really chasing the money. That was not really a big motivator. And I, and I think I have more risk of that being the case now where it's just like, I'm closer to 40 than I've ever been. And I would like to buy a house and like, I'll use your, your things change a little bit, but. I do think that you're spot on with that. And really, even when you do attain whatever the thing is, whether it's the money or the success or whatever, you've got about 60 seconds of that euphoric, like, yes, I did it. And then you will spend, if you make that, continue to make that your goal, you'll spend the rest of your life trying to chase that high again, but it has to get bigger and bigger. And that's like what you were saying, where it doesn't matter if it's money or if it's success or if it's followers or whatever, it's the same thing. And Speaker 1 (18:33) whatever it is, you will peak. Like you will peak at whatever you do. And then inevitably, by definition, that means that you have to go down. And the down, I think, creates the illusion. Like during COVID, retro supply perhaps peaked. Maybe I have better years. I try not to think to myself, oh, it's going to get that much bigger because it makes you miserable. But as you go down from a peak, you think, oh, I'm crashing. That's not really what's happening. It's just that everything has a peak. And by definition, at some point, things will look like they used to be higher. And you think Speaker 3 (19:02) I'm Speaker 1 (19:03) failing. I'm not good enough. It's all falling apart. It's finally proving to everyone that I don't know what I'm doing. But that's not true. It's just that inevitably that happens. Speaker 2 (19:14) Yeah. Dude, I had that happen with, um, so the voice didn't really put me on that much with. music, which is why it was hard for you to dig up even finding it. And I'm really kind of grateful because a lot of people get trapped in that. They get tied to a singing show that's forever what's associated with them and their music career. What actually put on my music was I have been very active on social media for the past several years, but I was working on a record and it was really pushing TikTok really hard. And I ended up leaking one of my demos that we were working on and it went. insanely viral and it's a good song it got thanks Speaker 3 (19:54) man Speaker 2 (19:54) uh it got millions of views so people Speaker 3 (19:57) know Speaker 2 (19:57) sad cowboys and rock and roll yeah and by the time it came out uh like in real time i was watching like insane amounts of traction like i've nothing like that will probably ever happen again in my life like it but it hit number two across all of itunes when it first like um What is the major? Anyway, there was one major pop band that had just released a song and they were right above me for a little while. It didn't last long, but like across all genres, it hit number two and it first popped off. That's the amount of people that were immediately, you know, downloading it. And that that was so exciting at the time. But like in a way, it kind of like screws the whole rest of your career to the point of what you're saying. Speaker 3 (20:42) Like that's. Speaker 2 (20:44) That was like the one song feels like that was the peak. I could spend the rest of my music career and never get close to that level of immediate. Like I literally, within the next few days, I went to my local coffee shop. I went to every day and an A &R guy from the label stopped me at the door before I got to the counter and asked if I was Van Andrew and like my song. And it's like, that's weird. Like that's why probably celebrities go crazy. We're like overnight, something like. So all that to say, that could make me super depressed. And honestly, the last few years, I wrestled with that a lot of times where you were trying to chase that again. But at some point, like with your business, you come to terms with it and you're like, yeah, but I'm grateful for what I have. Like that was such a gift that it's propelled everything forward. And sometimes it's even a pivot where it's like the whole past two years, I've been almost completely just on my design business, you know? Speaker 2 (21:40) But yeah, it is a weird phenomenon when you hit a certain level because you do, you will peak and you never know when it's going to be the peak. So what does it say about that song? Speaker 3 (21:48) What to you? How do you see that song? Sad Cowboys and Rock and Roll that, you know, that being your most successful, arguably on TikTok, at least around the internet, the most successful song. How do you view that song in, in, in your collection of songs that you've written in, in, in song? Where do you rank it? Speaker 2 (22:06) I'm still, I'm very proud of it still. I knew when I wrote it that there was something there. You know how when you create something and before you get the feedback, you're like, okay, I feel like this is something. I didn't know it was going to be that thing. And I would say that I feel very lucky because a lot of people that end up being one-hit wonders, and hopefully I'm not, but they hate the song that everyone loves and they spend the rest of their career having to play it. I don't feel that way. Like, I feel lucky that like, I actually am proud of it and like, I'm happy to sing it. I think the hard thing is, is I don't think it's the best thing I've ever written. And I can't believe that that's the thing that I will ever write. Cause that's, you know, as a creative, you hopefully always moving forward. Um, so ranking wise, I don't know. Like, I think the most exciting thing is usually the thing you're currently working on, you know? Um, I, for a long time though, I did try and chase because I am a recovering people pleaser. I tried to chase the same magic of that song where I was like, people like this thing. It's a this and a this, it's this style. Like I need to try and write something like that again. And I wasted like two years of time trying to recreate it in a different way. And at some point you have to come to terms with like, that came to you. Organically in a setting when I was basically homeless, living with my family again and my dad's office, and it's just falls out of you. That's how stuff comes. And if you're writing a more poetic song now or a rock and roll song or a whatever, that's the next thing. Like you can't keep, you know, it's Speaker 1 (23:53) hard Speaker 2 (23:53) to manufacture that story. Speaker 1 (23:55) Yeah. Do you think that's why so many people in the music or. I feel like it happens mostly in music, but it also happens in, you know, film and things like that. Do you think that's why so many of them have such dramatic ups and downs in their personal lives or their lives like offstage is that it's just like humans weren't, almost like humans weren't built for this kind of amplification of things about themselves. And once you taste it, you know, like it's, it's so painful to have to let go of that it creates this chasm. You know what I mean? Like, do you think that. People already have that and they're there and that's what makes them who they are and they're victims of that. Or do you think that the actual system that amplifies people creates that situation in people? Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, I think that. Speaker 2 (24:43) I don't think that we are made to be elevated to that level. But I think we've created a system that says that is the top. That's where we're all striving to get to. So if you end up with a chasm before you get to that level already, it's because you're being influenced by a system that says that's what it should be. I don't think it's because you need to be that celebrated. That's just what... I would have to think about that a little bit more. But no, I don't think we're made to be that elevated. And when we when you are, it creates like such strong contrasts in the rest of your life. Like, look at like and they had a whole nother like laundry list of things that they had to deal with. But like. 50, 100 years ago, like growing up on a farm, the only people that you knew was like right up the road. And then you go into town once a week, like that kind of vibe. It's that all I think is how we are more built to like live, even though so much of my life is surrounding things that don't have anything to do with that now. It's like even look at like the dating world, right? Like when you have dating apps, you have. Instagram, TikTok, it gives this illusion that you can have whatever you want, whenever you want it and never settle down because there's something better. And that itself is just this vacuum, you know? So add fame to that and people telling you that you're the best and that people following you, it's just like. it's set up to destroy you, I feel Speaker 1 (26:17) like, in a lot of ways. You know, it's so interesting to hear your take on that because I don't know why, like, this feeling when you're talking about it, I kind of feel this feeling inside, like it reminds me of when I was in my 20s. There's like that, I can't explain, there's this desperate feeling inside of like, it sounds so good or it sounds so attractive. And I think maybe, like I grew up loving music, like really, really obsessed with music. You feel like so few people in the world get to make, say, a song or something like that where so much of the world knows it. It means so much to so many people when they hear it. You know, you think of like a Michael Jackson or John Lennon or whoever, and it's like they're almost closer to you than family members in some ways because of the music they've written. And to be that connected to so many people. in a way because of something that you did that touched them is like, I don't know, it's weird, man. It's like staring into some sort of abyss where you can't turn away from it because it seems like almost like such a pure, beautiful thing, but it's so dangerous. It's weird because Speaker 2 (27:26) at the end of the day, whoever made that is just another fellow human. And the danger- It Speaker 1 (27:32) doesn't feel like it. Speaker 2 (27:33) Yeah, the dangers that you don't put them in that position. And it's even more dangerous when they start to not putting themselves in that position. Like there's some kind of elevated whatever. But I think there is a beautiful side to don't get me wrong. Like one, like I love that people have celebrated the work that I've done and stuff. And like, what's crazy, dude, is I've received multiple messages being like, this is our wedding song. Like, that's why. Speaker 3 (27:59) That is, what does that feel? Something that Speaker 2 (28:01) you set in a room and wrote. I could have chose any number of words to put in that song. Like, and the fact that someone that I have no idea who they are, they played that at their wedding. Like, that's crazy. Like, isn't that why we make art though? To like connect and to like express and to like, Speaker 1 (28:19) it's. Speaker 2 (28:20) Can Speaker 1 (28:20) you try to elaborate? I mean, obviously it feels good. Can you try to like explain to people like that maybe haven't had that? What does that feel like? Have someone tell you that and know that they actually were like, this is a cornerstone of me getting married in my relationship. I don't Speaker 2 (28:34) know how to, I don't know if I have like an eloquent answer for you. I think it's easy to disassociate from it, like anything, you know? But I think when I stop and think about it, to me, it's just humbling. It's a very, there's a gratitude that happens because you're like, this is a gift, you know, like that's just something that I've made. And that one thing isn't necessarily better than anything else that I've made, but people chose to give it time and, and, uh, you know, attention and it ended up going, you know, bigger than other things. And so I think. everything has to be kind of received as that like gift. Like, oh, wow. That's so cool that you gave your time to this thing that, you know, God gave me the song that like people connected with it. Like I, so much of life I'm finding, you have to just kind of hold like this. And so it feels really special. It is weird when people like out of the blue will be like, do you sing that one song or whatever? It feels good. I'm not gonna lie guys. Like it's awesome. It's cool. It's the same thing when you make a really badass poster design and like the artist like takes the time to like like it or like message you or send you an email and you're like, this is sick. This was my favorite guy back in high school, you know, was great, man. Like we were the weird, nerdy, awkward kids growing up that like felt misunderstood that this is all just a self-expression. So when people start understanding us through the art, we took years to learn how to. expressed through feels validating because you're like, oh, you get me. Sweet. Okay. I'm not crazy. I am, but you get