Dr. Daniel Amen | Club Random with Bill Maher

Club Random with Bill Maher

Bill Maher sits down with Dr. Daniel Amen to discuss the critical importance of proactive brain health and the physical nature of psychiatri

Key takeaways

• Dr. Daniel Amen has treated high-profile patients including Muhammad Ali and NFL players like Terry Bradshaw.
• The hippocampus produces approximately 700 new stem cells every day to support mood and memory.
• A study of 1,000 marijuana users revealed decreased activity in the brain's learning and memory centers.
• Dr. Amen identifies 'ANTs' (Automatic Negative Thoughts) as a way to manage nine different types of negative mental patterns.
• The concept of 'brain reserve' explains why individuals react differently to the same level of physical or environmental stress.

Main topics

• Brain health and neuroplasticity
• Impact of marijuana and alcohol on the brain
• Managing Automatic Negative Thoughts (ANTs)

Notable quotes

Psychiatrists are the only medical doctors who never look at the organ they treat.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a call to action for individuals to take proacti

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) While you were remodeling your backyard to make it more, you know, zen-y, we were remodeling our merch store to make it more random. We slapped our new logo on t-shirts, tie-dyes, hoodies, and hats, and all with premium printed labels. Look. I wasn't kidding. We have it. Because tags are like the junk mail of clothing. All merch is available exclusively at clubrandom.com. Once again, that's clubrandom.com. I noticed you're avoiding that question. I'm so excited to see your brain. That... Muhammad Ali was one of my patients. You had Muhammad Ali as a patient? I have his brain. What was he like? Speaker 2 (0:47) Awesome. Speaker 1 (0:50) Doc! Speaker 1 (0:53) How are you, sir? So nice to see you. Ah, thanks for coming. What do you think of the place? Speaker 1 (1:01) Spectacular. Really? It's your kind of place? I love it. Really? Good. Well, listen, I've been dying to meet you. You're very popular. The chicks dig you, Doc. You knew that, I guess. The women really, very excited. Holy, that Doc's on. They're into that medical stuff much more than the guys. I think of Speaker 2 (1:24) all my followers, 80 % are women. Speaker 1 (1:27) 80 %? Yeah. No wonder why you're such a Mac. Okay, so... Speaker 2 (1:33) My wife said I came housebroken and well-trained. I have five sisters, so... Really? Speaker 1 (1:42) Now, somebody told me you give your daughter's boyfriend's brain scans? Speaker 2 (1:48) Absolutely. Speaker 1 (1:49) You got the machine right in the dining room, Doc? No, but they go Speaker 2 (1:55) to the clinic. When I met my wife, it's our anniversary on Sunday. How many years? 18. Speaker 1 (2:04) I'm sorry. People on Speaker 2 (2:05) TV, Speaker 1 (2:06) they always clap when people are married more than like two years. Speaker 2 (2:10) I was married once before and I wasn't good. And so she Speaker 1 (2:14) said... Speaker 2 (2:14) She's going to hear that and be offended. She said, when I asked her, we're dating three weeks. And I'm like, you haven't seen the clinic. It's time to see the clinic. And she said it was the most unusual line that you wanted to see my naked brain. Speaker 1 (2:36) I mean, when I see brains in like, I've only seen it in movies and stuff, but it is one of the more unattractive looking organs in the body. Don't you think? No, I love the brain. Because it Speaker 2 (2:52) makes you who you are. Speaker 1 (2:53) How you think and feel and act. I've got to tell you, I'm not one of those people who believes in the universe. I mean, I believe in the universe. I just don't believe it's speaking to me like people think. However, This is, I think this is just not a, it's a coincidence, but it's a sign of where medicine is moving. Not because you're coming, but two other people, one person I read about and one person I had lunch with, Arianna Huffington, just two days ago, was all about the brain. And she's writing about it and, you know, she must be a big fan of yours. And then I was reading about someone who... had no problems, but had a brain scan at like 40, and they found what she wouldn't have known unless she died from it. So like your basic message about, you know, because I've never been a big fan of psychiatry. I know it works for some people. But your thing about like, look at the physical organ. I'm much more down on that page. I mean, I'm sure it's both. But I'm Speaker 2 (3:55) going Speaker 1 (3:55) to get the brain scan. Because my brain's been through a lot of talk. I'm not going to lie to you. Do you drink? Speaker 2 (4:02) No. Speaker 1 (4:02) Oh, me neither. Because I look at the brain. Well, come on. And when Speaker 2 (4:07) it comes to the brain, it's the only organ in your body where size matters. Now, Speaker 1 (4:15) Doc, don't give me a setup line like that where I can drive right down Broadway with the punchline. The only organ that matters? Boy, your wife's a forgiving woman. Good Speaker 2 (4:27) night, everybody. Size. Matter so I never want to do anything to have a smaller brain Never wanted Speaker 1 (4:35) to really have a smaller dick. That's so funny. I've done so much shit to my brain my dick. I've treated like gold Speaker 2 (4:41) So there's the big brain and the little brain and which ones in charge and I want well to have a big brand in charge. Speaker 1 (4:52) In every way, Doc, I had it in reverse. But I'm 70 now, and I'm much more mature, and I've taken care of myself very well. Like, when it got serious, I smoked stupidly for 20 years, but I quit at 40. Let me ask you that. You would know this. Like, how much poison do you think I could put in my body? Without it like actually killing me not not that I do it anymore very much, but I did I feel like I did You know, I still smoke pot I only have a few drinks a week, but I did drink, let's say, like an Irishman for years, smoked for 20 years. You think your body repairs completely? Sometimes. Yeah, Speaker 2 (5:42) really? Sometimes. It depends on how much reserve you have. So there's a term I coined called brain reserve. It's the extra tissue you have to deal with whatever stress comes your way. So take two soldiers, put them in the same tank, same blast. One of them walks away unharmed and one of them is permanently disabled. Why? It's the brain they brought into the accident. And so some people can smoke a lot of pot, can drink a lot of alcohol, and they still have their faculties. Right. A lot more people, it really has a negative impact on their brain. Speaker 1 (6:25) Well, not to invite ridicule here by my haters, but I... You can hate me, and I have many enemies who do, but nobody says I've lost my faculty. And they could. That would be a very easy one. Well, it must be the pot talking. No, they'll say, oh, he's old. Like, that's an argument. It's not an argument. Am I right? That's an argument. Or wrong. About anything. But I never hear, oh, he's lost his marbles. And so... But you also don't want to lose them. And one in two Speaker 2 (6:55) people... Speaker 1 (6:57) Yes. Speaker 2 (6:57) And I'm 72. So one in two people who are 85 or older have Alzheimer's disease or another form of dementia. So you have a 50 % risk. So if you're 70 and healthy, odds are you're going to live to 90. Really? And don't you want to go knowing everything that's going on? And, you know, I have six kids. I love them all. I never want to live with them. Speaker 1 (7:27) But don't you think by the time we're 90, AI will have made it so that our brain lives on and we're in a completely, you know, I think they're just going to transplant the brain into a body and we're going to get, because the brain could live more than the human life sign or is it the brain that conks out? Speaker 2 (7:49) No, your Speaker 1 (7:50) brain could go on but if it's definitely but Speaker 2 (7:53) if it's moth-eaten, right? You're not gonna be thinking right so When Speaker 1 (7:58) I Speaker 2 (7:59) first started doing scans, it was 1991. I was the director of a substance abuse treatment center In a psychiatric hospital and their brains were so bad compared to the other ones I scanned I'm like And is it Speaker 1 (8:14) once you kill a brain cell it you can never bring it back to life That's not true. Speaker 2 (8:20) Great. That's not true. Oh, good. There's an area of your brain called the hippocampus. It's involved in mood and memory. And every day it produces about 700 new stem cells. Hippocampus is Greek for seahorse. So I often think of them baby seahorses making 700 new ones every day. It's your behavior that kills them or grows them. So what you eat, what you drink, the level of stress you're under, the toxins in your environment, all of that matters. So if you come and get scanned, you'll learn to love your brain and Speaker 1 (9:02) then you'll treat it better. I love my brain. I do. It's done me very well with all the flaws it has. I have never argued that I'm some sort of super high IQ person or... you know could do things that people I admire greatly sometimes who I don't agree with do like write long researched deeply researched books I don't have that concentration I did when I was in high school and college I love doing papers I was a great student but You know, I probably blew my mind out in a car. Too much pot and liquor and partying. And I just, that just wasn't the direction I was going to go in with a serious scholar. So I fully acknowledge I'm not on that level. But those people usually... I mean, they just lack this common sense gene, I feel like I have. I feel like that's my strong point of intellect. And it's amazing the way there's a whole category called stupid smart people, I think, or smart stupid people, like people who are brilliant in one area and then, you know, I mean... To use an obvious example, I remember interviewing for Religious Dr. Francis Collins, I think, and, you know, one of the most brilliant scientists, but also very, you know, orthodox believer in Christianity. A myth, to my view. Look, folks, we've all done the annual physical. Look, three months out, half a day off work, an hour in the waiting room, and of course labs at a second location. Also, a doctor can spend 10 minutes telling you everything looks normal and show you the door. Three months of anticipation for a shrug. That's why superpower is a game changer. Instead of waiting for something to go wrong, you get proactive, preventative care. Membership covers over 150 biomarkers a year across two tests, a baseline and a progress check, so you can see how your body's actually changing. The Club Random team has been using it and having real personalized data on their phones has been eye-opening. The app breaks down your heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin and mineral levels, gut microbiome, even environmental toxins. That's not a physical. That's an investigation. And it works. 85 % of members uncover early risk factors for disease, 79 % uncover heart disease risk, and 49 % show the speed of aging. Take control of your health with Superpower. For a limited time, our listeners get $50 off their membership at superpower.com slash random. That's superpower.com slash random for $50 off your Superpower membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about Superpower. Tell them Club Random with Bill Maher sent you to support the show. You know, I know you're probably religious. I know you're Lebanese Catholic. But, you know, as a scientist, you must realize it is a little hokey, the whole thing, the whole story of Jesus and all that stuff. No? So you think we're here by random chance? I think we don't know. And the difference between a religious person and me is a religious person says, I don't know the answer. I'm going to make up a story about it and then believe that. And I go, well, I don't know. And I just, I'm not going to know probably while I'm alive, but I'm not going to make up a story. And I was raised Catholic. Loved every minute of it, Doc. Let me tell you, those Catholics. So I went Speaker 2 (12:52) to medical school at Oral Roberts University. So I learned medicine in the context of my faith. And we were taught to pray with patients. I've never not believed. Nothing that I've learned has decreased my faith in a creator, in a benevolent Speaker 1 (13:17) God. Even when he allows so much horrible shit to happen here on Earth. Well, it's because the idea of free will. A baby? If he controlled everything. Speaker 2 (13:28) A baby gets Speaker 1 (13:29) cancer. That's not free will. The baby didn't, like, Speaker 2 (13:32) make... That's not the... No, but it's the condition of humans. And there's... Speaker 2 (13:41) amazing people Speaker 1 (13:42) and there's evil. I mean, there's clear evil. I have a new book coming in Speaker 2 (13:47) December you might not like, but it's called The Neuroscience of the Lord's Prayer. You know, being raised Catholic. I was an altar boy, said it thousands of times, but I never really studied what's underneath it. And when Jesus talks about deliver us from Speaker 1 (14:07) the evil one, Speaker 2 (14:09) Yeah, there is evil. Speaker 1 (14:11) But you know, of course there's evil but you do I'm sure you realize as a scientist you are in a distinct minority as far as religiosity most scientists of very high number are atheists. Well, that is like Francis Speaker 2 (14:25) Collins who's Speaker 1 (14:25) again Speaker 2 (14:26) in the head of Speaker 1 (14:27) the NIH the National Institute of Health I'm Speaker 2 (14:30) not judging. I'm just saying Speaker 1 (14:31) as a fact it is a fact I believe that most scientists are atheists Well, Speaker 2 (14:37) it's not Speaker 1 (14:37) the ones I hang out with. Speaker 2 (14:39) Right. Speaker 1 (14:42) But that's what's so interesting about humans. Anyway, to get back to the point, I am with you. Again, I don't think this is cosmic, that three things about the brain happen all within a week. But I just think this is bubbling up. And I think you are right. I think we don't look at the physical part of it. Psychiatry? I know it has its place. I also think a lot of it is just utter bullshit. And this comes from having gone, I can't even describe the circumstances, very briefly and with another person. But it just struck me as preposterous that this could ever help me. But I know it does help people. But I think you are got the right theme. I'm not going to defend it. We're not. concentrating on the physical part of the brain enough. Right. Psychiatrists are the Speaker 2 (15:39) only medical doctors who never look at the organ they treat. Speaker 1 (15:45) Think about that. Speaker 2 (15:47) Cardiologists look, your orthopedic doctor looks, your GI doctor looks, gynecologist. Every medical specialist look. Psychiatrists make diagnoses like they did in 1840. when Lincoln was depressed. So Lincoln was suicidal twice in his life. Really? In Speaker 1 (16:04) the Speaker 2 (16:04) winter of 1840, he goes to his doctor, Anson Henry. And how did Dr. Henry diagnose Lincoln with melancholia, or what is now major depression? He talked to him. He looked at him. He looked for symptom clusters, then diagnosed and treated him. That's exactly what happens today. And that's insane. Well, and that's 60 years before Freud. Speaker 2 (16:30) And Freud tried. In 1895, Freud said the brain science of my time is not sophisticated enough to explain patient symptoms. So he then went and developed psychoanalysis. But 35 years ago, when I started to do brain-spec imaging, that's the imaging study I do, it changed absolutely everything I do as a psychiatrist, as a father, as a human. With a better brain comes a better life, but if you never look you never know Speaker 1 (17:02) Look the reason why I've followed mostly although I have certainly have Western MD doctors, but the the ideas of Holistic medicine is because I do think the body is holistic I think Western medicine makes the mistake of treating it like a clock that you can take the parts and you know They're very big on specialists this guy for the kidneys this guy for the heart and holistic medicine believes much more that No, everything is connected. So we don't do that. That's why we treat things instead of heal things. I'm looking to heal, not treat, you know. Because you want to know what's the cause. The root Speaker 2 (17:42) cause and heal it, not just treat it. And in four circles. So when I went to medical school, the dean of our medical school, first week, comes into the classroom and he goes, never think of your patient as their diagnosis. Always think of them in these four circles. So what's the biology? You know, that's where you're in medical school. What's the psychology? How they think. What's their past level of trauma? What's the social circle? So how's their life, their relationship, their job, their money? And what's the spiritual circle? Which is why the heck do they care? What is their deepest sense? of meaning and purpose. And so from that moment on, I always think of my patients in these four big circles. I have a new program we just piloted in a hundred organizations, churches, businesses, the Orange County Rescue Mission. It's called The Whole Four because we help people get better in all those at Speaker 1 (18:50) all times. Can you hook me up with the brain scan like yesterday, though? Seriously. Can you? Absolutely. Okay, great. Where's the machine? Speaker 2 (18:58) I have one in Encino. They're not very far from here. I'm not going Speaker 1 (19:01) to Encino. I don't care how much it's going to help mine. Well, the Speaker 2 (19:04) other one is in Costa Mesa. I Speaker 1 (19:06) love you, Encino. No, Encino's perfect. It's right over at the Valley. Please, the Valley. Five of us have lived there for years. There's nothing wrong with it. I'll go to the Valley. You never thought of like... moving down to Beverly Hills, you seem like you must, you're so successful. Seems like the, by the way, will this bother you if I, it won't? Great, Doc, I appreciate that. But if, even a little bit, say no. I'm fine. Yeah, okay. I won't tempt you with it. I just, and I probably want just one puff or two, you know, it's just, what do you think about the efficacy of something like marijuana, do you think it's a... I mean, to me, it's always been benign, and not just benign, but super beneficial. I mean, without this, trust me, we wouldn't be sitting here. I'd be living in a two-bedroom apartment in Van Nuys. It gave me every good idea I ever had. I know it sounds terrible to tell that to kids, but it's kind of true. But... What kind of, and I was never an everyday smoker. I'm not like Snoop, you know, I don't get up and just light the blunt and have it going all day. But do you think it's, you think I'm underestimating the toll? Already I see I don't like this answer. I published a study on a thousand marijuana users. Every area of their brain is involved. I know them all. And Speaker 2 (20:34) activity. And I get so much engagement when I boast about marijuana. And people go, oh, you just need to get high. An independent group on another thousand marijuana users that learning and memory centers lower in activity. The what? The learning and memory centers. Speaker 1 (20:58) I'm very concerned. Memory, yes. Memory, yes. Speaker 2 (21:02) 21 million people in America now smoke pot every day. You're welcome. And Speaker 1 (21:07) if a Speaker 2 (21:07) teenager, and this is my big worry with it, because as we go, oh, this is good medicine, because it's medically legal in 40 states. If this is good medicine, then the use in teenagers goes up. And if you smoke as a teenager, or you use marijuana as a teenager, in your 20s, increased risk of anxiety, depression, suicide, Speaker 1 (21:32) and psychosis. I did not smoke in my 20s. Bitch. Which could be really helpful for you. Yes. Because Speaker 2 (21:39) your brain really isn't finished. Speaker 1 (21:41) It is not. Speaker 2 (21:41) Until you're 25, 26. No, Speaker 1 (21:44) I was 19 when I started, so I feel pretty good about that. And I feel like... Other stuff I did was much worse. And I think you always have to sort of balance, yes, physical harm. I'm not some hippie who's like, oh, no, it's good for you. It's not health food. I get it. But would I be happier if it hadn't brought me the things it has brought me? No. And if you're not happy, if you don't really want to live, I think that's a big factor, getting back to holistic medicine and why you have to. account for not just the physical but the brain too and what the brain is putting out and mood and I mean 200 years ago the only way they really cured people was by Speaker 1 (22:34) You know just convincing they didn't know what they were doing. They were just convinced them Somebody did something and they would believe it worked They would put fucking dirt in your wound or something and because you believed it now we call that You know what what is it when see I have aphasia doc you're gonna have to work it once it when you When you have a pill and they're the placebo Speaker 2 (22:56) if they the Speaker 1 (22:57) placebo system was like the main way of treating somebody In Speaker 2 (23:01) many ways, it still is. Really? Speaker 1 (23:04) I mean, when they do big Speaker 2 (23:07) studies on SSRIs. Speaker 1 (23:08) And you think it really is a thing? Oh, it's absolutely a thing. Okay. That if you're... Being happy, wanting to live. Speaker 2 (23:17) Yes, but I think part of it is no one teaches you to manage your mind. And I was 28 years old, my psychiatric residency, which I did at Walter Reed in Washington, D.C. One of my professors said, you have to teach your patients not to believe every stupid thing they think. And I'm like, really? You can do that? Because I'd believed every stupid thing I thought. And I'm like, I teach all of my patients. to kill the ants, the automatic negative thoughts that steal your happiness just because you have a thought. So we're agreeing. Has nothing to do with whether or not it's true, whether or not it's helpful. And learning to manage your mind is a skill we should start teaching in second grade. But we never do. And so I'm friends Speaker 1 (24:11) with Paul Simon. You probably love Paul Simon. I love Paul Simon. Second to no man, my love for Paul Simon's music. And Speaker 2 (24:18) he has this song, Kodachrome, which starts with, when I Speaker 1 (24:21) think back on all the crap I learned in high school, it's a wonder I can think at all. Speaker 2 (24:26) And it's like, why? We have a high school program called Brain Thrive by 25. Speaker 2 (24:32) We teach kids to love and care for their brain, but also to manage their Speaker 1 (24:38) mind. Well, Manage Your Mind is a great title. You should remember that. It should be your next book. It's an automatic seller with your success already. But also, I just want to say, as true as that is, that we don't teach it. A maybe you can't teach it and B nobody taught it to me except me by stumbling my way forward which is the condition of life stumbling our way forward the behind us is lit up quite well because we already lived it but what's ahead of us we're just bumping into shit and making mistakes and when I was you know college age when I my mind was just you know you just have too much energy I remember spending a lot of time like writing down, you know, besides jokes and stuff, which was my career, but like lessons, you know, trying to like learn every, be able to like, and think, oh, if I could just write them all down and then memorize the list and like, I'll never make a mistake again, you know? And of course that doesn't work. But I just saw from an early time that I was very invested in, as someone once said, I never make the same mistake once. That's what was my goal. I want to like and of course that will never happen except by the way it happened which is the years go by and you just