Patrick McEnroe: Calling the shots

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

In this episode of Clear and Vivid, host Alan Alda sits down with former professional tennis player and ESPN commentator Patrick McEnroe to explore his journey from living in the shadow of his legendary older

Key takeaways

• Patrick McEnroe reached world No. 3 in doubles and No. 28 in singles before transitioning to a successful broadcasting career with ESPN.
• He recounts playing his brother John in Chicago, where he deliberately held back after winning the first set to protect John's feelings as the older sibling.

Main topics

• Tennis career & sibling rivalry
• Davis Cup leadership & team management

Notable quotes

"I sort of remember thinking to myself, man, if I beat him, he'll never be able to live with this."

Conclusion

Patrick McEnroe's reflections offer a practical blueprint for navigati

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:05) I'm Alan Alda, and this is Clear and Vivid, conversations about connecting and communicating. Speaker 3 (0:15) I won the first set. He won the second set. Then we went to a third set. I have to be honest, Alan, I sort of remember thinking to myself, man, if I beat him, he'll never be able to live with this. Because I was his little brother, you know, and he was always the better guy. Speaker 2 (0:30) And I wanted to win, Speaker 3 (0:32) but I wasn't like desperate to win. You know, sometimes you hear younger siblings or even siblings, like all I want to do is beat my sibling. I didn't really have that mentality. Maybe that's why I got to 28 and not number one. Like, I didn't know if I was enough of a killer. You Speaker 2 (0:47) know, he was a killer on the tennis court. That's Patrick McEnroe, the younger brother of tennis great John McEnroe. Back in May, Arlene and I ran into Patrick when we were in Paris for a few days that happened to coincide with the French Open tennis tournament. We had a great conversation that led to his inviting me onto his podcast and my inviting him to be on Clear and Vivid. Growing up in the shadow of his brother John, Patrick had a brilliant tennis career of his own, ranked at 28th in the world in singles and number three in doubles. Speaker 3 (1:23) You joke a lot about being number 28 in Speaker 2 (1:26) the world. Speaker 3 (1:27) Yes, I do. Yeah. Because in my house, that's, you know, my brother was number one. I think in the last few years, I've really come to terms with being John's brother. Speaker 2 (1:36) Tell me how, what way? Speaker 3 (1:38) Yeah, because I think I'm enjoying it more than ever. Because there used to be a part of me that was maybe not quite, I'm not going to say comfortable, but, you know, feel like I'm always in the shadows, you know, of what he did. And I'll tell you one story, which I think you'll appreciate. with your family background. So our parents, my parents, were very driven for us, their three sons, I have another brother named Mark, to get well-educated from the time we were little, and even when my parents couldn't afford it. Fast forward to when I was graduating from Stanford. I played there on a tennis scholarship, as my brother John did for a year. Our other brother Mark wasn't a competitive tennis player, but he went there as well. Speaker 2 (2:20) So Speaker 3 (2:20) I'm getting ready to graduate. And I decided to take the law boards to possibly go to law school because my dad was a lawyer, successful lawyer. My other brother became a lawyer. And I wasn't sure if I was... going to be good enough to make it in pro tennis, even though I had been a great junior and a very good college player. And so I studied hard for the law boards and I took the test the day after I graduated from Stanford. So when my mom would say to me, son, you know, I'm not sure you should be a professional tennis player. And I said, why not? You're not going to be as good as your brother. I said, well, he's number one in the world. You know, nobody's as good as him. She said, well, I think you should think about something else. So I take the law boards. I get my scores back. She looks at me and she says, son, I think professional tennis is in your future. Speaker 2 (3:21) So what was the turning point for you in coming out from under being the younger brother? Speaker 3 (3:27) I think it was, you know, I got into a lot of the same things that he got into, whether it was playing tennis, then becoming a broadcaster in tennis. And I think it gave me the opportunity with my last name that I kind of get my foot in the door. But I just, I love to do what I did. Like, I love the work. I love being on television. I loved figuring out how I could be better as a sideline reporter and then how I could be better as a, what we call in sports lingo, as a color commentator. And then I used to watch the people that were the hosts, you know, that were doing what they call play-by-play. And then I wanted to learn how to do that. Because when I started in broadcasting, they don't teach you anything. They just say, oh, go call this tournament or this match and they see if you're any good. And then if you're any good, maybe they give you some feedback. And that's kind of how I got started into broadcasting after I'd had a couple shoulder surgeries and my playing career was coming to an end. But I had my best year when I was 28, 29 years old when I got up to 28 in Speaker 2 (4:30) the Speaker 3 (4:30) world. I teach at our tennis academy, the John McEnroe Tennis Academy, where I help run the programs for the juniors. And we always like to say... we'd love to have the next John McEnroe, Speaker 2 (4:42) right? Come out of New York city, be a U S open champion, but we'll take a Patrick back in a row. Speaker 3 (4:47) Cause like you said, there's not that many people that made it, making it to 28 in the world. So we take that. So it was concentrating on what you did well and learning to do it better. Yeah. Learning to do it better. Um, I think as my brother and I started working together more, it gave us the, um, the joy and the luxury to see what each other's really good at and maybe what's not our best trait, you know, whether that's on air or off air or whatever it was. And I think I just started to be much more relaxed and confident and also be like, you know what? I'm pretty, I'm proud to be John McEnroe's brother. Like he's, he's turned into an amazing person. I mean, he's always been a great person, a great family guy. So I think over the years, um, I've just embraced it more and more. You know what I mean? Just being like, yeah, I'm John's brother, but I'm Patrick. And you Speaker 2 (5:41) played him once. Speaker 3 (5:43) I played him a couple times. And one time we played, which is probably the match you're thinking of, in the finals of a pretty good-sized tournament in Chicago. Speaker 2 (5:53) And Speaker 3 (5:53) at that point, we had played a few times previously, and he beat the crap out of me because he was in his prime, and I was like a young kid coming up. And at this time we played, he was at the tail end of his career and I was in the prime of my career. Now he was still better than me, but we were much closer in our level. And I remember thinking I won the first set, Speaker 2 (6:16) Alan, and Speaker 3 (6:17) our dad flew in from, uh, New York to be there just for the final. And, um, I won the first set and he won the second set. Then we went to a third set. It was kind of, close early on. And I have to be honest, Alan, I sort of remember thinking to myself, man, if I beat him, he'll never be able to live with this. Cause you know, I was his little brother, you know, and he was always the better guy. Speaker 2 (6:42) And I, and I wanted to win, Speaker 3 (6:44) but I wasn't like desperate to win. You know, sometimes you hear younger siblings or even siblings, like all I want to do is beat my sibling. I didn't really have that mentality. Maybe that's why I got to 28 and not number one. Like I didn't know if I was enough of a killer. you know he was a killer on the tennis court yeah how important Speaker 2 (7:04) is that Speaker 3 (7:05) I think it's Speaker 2 (7:06) important to get to Speaker 3 (7:07) a certain level. I also obviously didn't have a lot of the physical skill that he had or some of the great players that I played against. But I think when you're talking about the difference between levels, so if it was me, the difference between me and a player that was 35, let's say I was 28 or 20. In tennis, if I played someone that was number one or number two, usually they would just beat me, no problem. But the difference between the guys at the very top, that's where those little, we call it the intangibles, the heart, how far you're willing to go. Rafael Nadal, the great player who recently retired, said, I have to be willing to suffer. I have to be willing to go to a different place. Speaker 2 (7:51) And even my brother used to say when he played Bork, his great rival, Speaker 3 (7:55) and he said he realized that... Speaker 3 (7:59) He had to go somewhere deeper than he'd ever gone before to beat him. Whereas everyone else he could beat, you know, just by being himself, like playing his normal game. So I think that's, that's the difference between like greatness and sports and legendary athletes. You know, that they have not only the physical ability, which I really didn't have to the highest level. And then they have that ability to do something extra, something different to be. you know, one of the all-time greats. Speaker 2 (8:34) We talk about communication a lot on this show. And I'm wondering if the opponent, when you're playing tennis, communicates stuff to you that he doesn't know he's communicating. Are you reading them to be able to predict what they're going to do next? Speaker 3 (8:50) Yeah, you're always