Episode 345 - Pete Holmes

Breaking Bread with Tom Papa

Comedian Pete Holmes joins Tom Papa for an intimate and humorous conversation about the challenges of stand-up comedy, faith, parenthood, an

Key takeaways

Comedy can become intellectually lazy when relying on easy tropes like 'a man in the sky' to describe faith.
The fear of being perceived as 'too much' is a recurring theme in personal and creative life.

Main topics

The mental and emotional labor behind stand-up comedy
Faith and spirituality in comedic storytelling

Notable quotes

"I'm so relieved and delighted to know that you're human." – Pete Holmes on Tom Papa

"Valerie always scans it for my intent. It's a joy." – Pete Holmes on his wife's empathy

Conclusion

The conversation ends on a warm, humorous note, highlighting the impor

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) My version of that is talking about believing in God. Speaker 1 (0:02) Right. Like that Speaker 2 (0:04) to me. Yeah. And with all respect to the great comics that came before us that used to be like, you believe. Like, you know. Yeah. A million are coming to mind. I don't want to put anybody down. But it was the hot, easy laugh. So easy. To just be like, well. I guess you like bullshit, you know? And there was a time- A Speaker 1 (0:23) man in the sky. Yeah, Speaker 2 (0:25) yeah, yeah. You're telling me, a man in the Speaker 1 (0:29) sky. Speaker 2 (0:30) Yeah. New rule, let's stop doing that. Yeah, Speaker 1 (0:32) no, it actually became, it became intellectually lazy. Speaker 2 (0:37) It did, and it wasn't always. Speaker 1 (0:39) Yeah. But Speaker 2 (0:40) that's life. In Speaker 1 (0:41) the Speaker 2 (0:41) hands of Speaker 1 (0:41) smart people. It was wonderful. Well, George Carlin, Speaker 2 (0:44) but he loves you. That's a great bit, but that's a thoughtful- Yeah. It's breaking Speaker 1 (0:49) bread. Let me ask you something. Good to see you. You too. Always Speaker 2 (0:55) good to see you. It's Speaker 1 (0:56) good Speaker 2 (0:56) to Speaker 1 (0:56) see you too. Good to Speaker 2 (0:57) see you. How good is it to see me though? Speaker 1 (0:59) Like when you woke Speaker 2 (1:00) up this morning, were you thinking, Oh, I'll tell you. Oh, I've got to go see Tom. Well, first of all, I sat on the edge of my bed because I had a call with my mother. I love my mother, but like, there's a reason I'm funny. Can we leave it there? Speaker 2 (1:16) And I just had a bad call and it makes me feel like a bad son. And I went to bed and then I was sitting on the edge of my bed, like just thinking like, am I the douchebag in the 90s movie that's on the car phone with his mom? I'm getting roadhead. She's like, no, I can't. Look, I'm busy. At the Speaker 1 (1:34) end of the Speaker 2 (1:34) scene, a girl's Speaker 1 (1:35) head pops up. Yeah, of Speaker 2 (1:35) course. Speaker 1 (1:37) That made it Speaker 2 (1:38) worse. Speaker 2 (1:40) Yeah, but then I laughed thinking about your bit. And I wasn't sure. I knew I had one of two podcasts today. It was either yours or someone else's. And when I remembered it was yours, Speaker 1 (1:52) I was very happy. You were? Yeah, day off. Because I'm not convinced of that. You're a Bueller. Speaker 1 (1:59) I'm not totally convinced that you love me. I Speaker 2 (2:02) have you on my Largo, like, biannually. Speaker 1 (2:05) Yeah. What do you mean? Tell me what you mean. I feel like there's a little part... There's a little part of... I love this. Speaker 2 (2:16) What beef Speaker 1 (2:17) are Speaker 2 (2:17) you manufacturing? No, it's not... Speaker 1 (2:18) Not a beef, but I feel like there's a little part of... Me that annoys you. What? Mm-hmm. I love this. A little bit. I Speaker 2 (2:31) love Speaker 1 (2:31) this. Yep. Speaker 2 (2:32) I never in a million, I'm relieved and delighted. Speaker 1 (2:37) I'm totally cool if you are. No. But I always get the feeling. Speaker 2 (2:41) Because we're at Largo, I'm thinking of my jokes. Mm Speaker 1 (2:44) -hmm. Probably. Yeah, maybe. That's Speaker 2 (2:45) the only guess I have. But what I was going to say is I'm so relieved and delighted to know that you're human. Because in my mind, you're sharp dressed, you're handsome, you have all these books. Speaker 1 (2:55) Oh, I wrote another book. I just handed my fourth one in today. That's what Speaker 2 (2:59) I'm saying. Books are just spilling out of your butt. Whoops, another book. Your book is right on my shelf. So I see you're doing great. Exclamation point with a star all the time. And I think of you as the consummate, the mechanic. The mechanic's too dry. That sounds like you're not really funny, but you're technically good. The mechanic Speaker 1 (3:18) sounds like a Marc Maron compliment. Speaker 2 (3:21) Like backhanded. Speaker 1 (3:22) A little bit. I Speaker 2 (3:23) don't mean it that way. I mean the pro. Speaker 1 (3:25) Marc's always like, you're so precise. And what he means is, I'm not, and I see what you're doing. I love this. I didn't know this about you. And it's only enriching my appreciation of you because Speaker 2 (3:43) me worrying that I'm annoying, that's my bread and Speaker 1 (3:49) butter. Speaker 2 (3:49) I baked this for you. I know you did. I'm ready to eat it. Okay. Bread and butter. It's not really. It used to be more so. But it is in... What was your bread and butter? I'm sorry. Worrying that I'm annoying or worrying that people think I'm... You want to go right to it. One of my core fears is I'm too much. The phrase too much. Speaker 1 (4:09) That you're too on? Speaker 2 (4:10) Not even on, just. And unfortunately, there's evidence to confirm this. Like, if I let my personality off the leash, not a lot of people are on board. Speaker 1 (4:25) You Speaker 2 (4:26) know who is? What part? My wife. I'm not just saying this to whatever. Valerie loves every part of me, and I'm fucking obsessed Speaker 1 (4:34) with her. Speaker 2 (4:34) She does. I Speaker 1 (4:35) admire your friendship. Speaker 2 (4:38) We're good friends, and we're... No, Speaker 1 (4:42) yeah, and you're intimate. But just in the brief moments when I see you together, it seems very healthy and sustained at this point. It is. It Speaker 2 (4:52) is. It is Speaker 1 (4:53) sustained. Speaker 2 (4:53) Beautiful. We all talk like him. He's in us. It Speaker 1 (4:57) is Speaker 2 (4:57) sustained. Speaker 1 (4:58) Don't say that. Speaker 2 (4:59) Objection. Speaker 1 (5:00) He's in us. I'm in you, Speaker 2 (5:01) Tom. Speaker 1 (5:02) Make me bread. Speaker 2 (5:03) I love it. Deep fry it. Put some butter on it. Beautiful butter. It's the best. It's the land of lakes. Speaker 1 (5:11) It's too good. It's too good. It's not even in the top 50. I know, but it's still so good. I Speaker 2 (5:16) know. Speaker 1 (5:16) I Speaker 2 (5:17) like Speaker 1 (5:17) doing it. Thank you for allowing it. Yeah. Speaker 2 (5:19) Valerie is doing a big lift. Speaker 1 (5:22) She's Speaker 2 (5:23) a love genius. And she really, you know the difference between someone who's like trying to appreciate or like you and someone who just does. And I'm just grateful that I'm like, she can get, this sounds so cool, but Speaker 1 (5:35) she can get the whole thing. She likes the whole piece. What's the part that repels people? Speaker 2 (5:40) I'll just go too far. Speaker 1 (5:42) If Speaker 2 (5:42) you let it all out. I'll Speaker 1 (5:43) go Speaker 2 (5:43) too far. It sounds... I'm going to try and... I was going to say, oh, I'll be mean. Really what it is, is I'll be unaware of where the boundaries are or where the line is or whatever. And even that sounds cool. It's not cool. It's much more Stephen Urkel. Steve Urkel. I call him Speaker 1 (6:01) Stephen. Out of respect for the OG. Speaker 2 (6:05) But like... It's like an obliviousness. It's a little spectrum-y. It's a little just like, I didn't know Speaker 1 (6:12) we weren't doing that. Speaker 2 (6:13) You Speaker 1 (6:14) know what I mean? I really Speaker 2 (6:15) am Speaker 1 (6:15) confused by Speaker 2 (6:17) this place a lot of the time. I don't understand our ceremonies, our cultures. What's Speaker 1 (6:23) happening? Whisper Speaker 2 (6:24) when you say cancer. Yes, cancer. You know, I don't under... Oh, like I'm just kind of doing... I love the talented Mr. Ripley. It's one of my favorite movies. Oh, it's so good. And Speaker 1 (6:32) I'm like, Speaker 2 (6:32) that's me. The people that love that movie relate to Mask. To Matt? To Mask Damon. Speaker 1 (6:40) Mask Damon. Mask Damon. Speaker 2 (6:42) Because we learned growing up in a household that we didn't understand and a community that I didn't understand, going like, oh, this is how you can get by. Speaker 1 (6:51) You're like, what's Speaker 2 (6:51) up? Socks, or whatever. You don't Speaker 1 (6:55) know Speaker 2 (6:55) what you're doing. And then sometimes, because this is also self-serving, but it's also nonsense-y. I'll get a little grab-assy with where I'll push it. That doesn't mean I just say the R word or whatever the Speaker 1 (7:09) thing Speaker 2 (7:10) is these days. That's not what I'm saying. I'll just kind of Speaker 1 (7:13) blow Speaker 2 (7:15) the call. And Val will always, my love language is benefit of the doubt. Benefit of the doubt. So if I say something and it is grotesque or it's over the line or it's rude, Valerie always scans it for my intent. It's a joy. Speaker 1 (7:29) Right. It's a joy. That is a nice thing to have. Speaker 2 (7:31) And she'll even remind me. She's like, you're not a hateful person. You're not an ugly person. You're not a cruel person. You're just this or this or this. Speaker 1 (7:38) Here's the thing I get from you. It's not that you push things and are like rude or obnoxious. As you're talking about your head and going places, it kind of coalesced. That I get, and this is part of me too, but I get that you are... You're very smart and your brain is very active. And I get the feeling sometimes when I'm around you that you're dumbing it down so I'll understand. It's so funny. I'm going to remember Speaker 2 (8:13) this fake meal. I'm going to always remember this manufactured fake meal. Because it's endearing me to you. Because I spend a lot of my time thinking. I'm too much. I'm a fool. Like they're dumbing it down or I'm misunderstanding. Right. And again, to go back to the true compliment, I just think of you as a secure, and this isn't ruining that. It's not compromising that. It never would have occurred to me that you thought that I was annoyed. That's like the furthest thing from my mind or dumbing it down. Speaker 1 (8:50) Yeah. A little bit. No. Like you're, I'm excited. You're getting through it. No. Speaker 2 (8:57) Thomas. But Speaker 1 (8:59) I see it also. Speaker 2 (9:02) You are very smart. What I think you're picking up on, I appreciate that, is first of all, I'm lit up. I'm happy to be here. I've had this subpar espresso. Speaker 1 (9:12) It made my eyes hot. Well, Speaker 2 (9:14) I don't think this is what got the whole movement going. It wasn't this one. This is more eyes hot. This one's like, oh, something's... This is like when you eat Cheez-Its and you're like, why is my cheeks tingling? You're right. There's something in Cheez-Its. Yeah. Is this a toothpaste? Like, why is it so... Speaker 1 (9:35) It feels preventative. Speaker 2 (9:36) Why do I Speaker 1 (9:36) feel so different now? Speaker 2 (9:38) But I'm lit up. I'm caffeinated. I'll tell a little bit because I love how candid you're being. I spend a lot of my time... not being this way and wishing that I was. Speaker 1 (9:52) What do you mean? Not being what way? I'm not manic depressive. I wish there was something easy to, Speaker 2 (9:57) not easy, but like they're a clear label. But I spent a lot of my time being either just lit up, Speaker 1 (10:05) alive Speaker 2 (10:06) and excited. And that's a lot of the times when I see you, I'm that way. And then the high processing comes out. So it's just that sort of like fast, like. Fast talking. Speaker 1 (10:15) Right, right, right. Just a fast talking Speaker 2 (10:17) Fred. I'm just a barber. I'm just yapping your ear off. It's not as Speaker 1 (10:22) amazing Speaker 2 (10:22) as it sounds. It's just kind of a trick. Speaker 1 (10:24) Well, you know, that might be part of it. That might be part of it. My haircutting business? No, you are, especially in those moments like when we're backstage of Largo, and we are talking, we have some time together. Yeah. But you're going into the mode that's going to go out on stage and talk for 45 minutes at the top of the show. That's right. You are a little bit of the clippy clippy barber guy, and maybe I'm catching that you're not focused. You're absolutely right. And misinterpreting what it is. Speaker 2 (10:52) You're the host. You have to keep me this side of pretentious, but I do think you're putting yourself in a state. I'll say that. You're putting yourself in a way, and you're leaning. The more pretentious way to be like, it's like you're going into a trance. You're going into a place. So we were, Maya and I were talking about ADD and I think ADD or ADHD or whatever it is, I'm not diagnosed. What's Speaker 1 (11:15) the Speaker 2 (11:15) difference? Hyperactivity. One's hyper and the Speaker 1 (11:18) other's just fuzzy. They're Speaker 2 (11:20) just like, Speaker 1 (11:21) do you want some meth? Chill. Speaker 2 (11:23) You can sell more meth to this one. Yeah. You're trying to get into a place where my best standup sets are where my mind. is accessible. It's like widescreen and I can see it and I can remember, I remember that thing. So I'm trying to prime myself into a self validating state and it's not a great place to have a conversation. You know what I mean? It's a weird guy. It's a weird guy. It's a weird guy just kind of, it's almost like with respect to drugs, it's like I'm getting my drugs ready and Speaker 1 (12:01) I'm Speaker 2 (12:01) sort of distracted. Kind of Speaker 1 (12:02) talking, but. focusing on that. But Speaker 2 (12:04) I mean, like, I feel like if you and I, Vegas is a better example. We had more of a bond in Vegas. Speaker 1 (12:11) Yeah, but that's, I kind of, yeah, all right. No? Tell me. All right. This is where you started to think I didn't like you? Well, when I try and piece it together. Is this Speaker 2 (12:21) Mark Maron's podcast? Speaker 1 (12:23) And it's not heavy dislike, but there's just like, I'm never really sure if. You like me. So I, when we went to Vegas Speaker 2 (12:33) and everyone's like, I have to, Speaker 1 (12:35) I gotta see there's Speaker 2 (12:37) conflict Speaker 1 (12:37) here. Speaker 2 (12:39) I'll give you one. Fuck you, man. Fuck you. Speaker 1 (12:42) That's what I'm saying. That's what Speaker 2 (12:44) I'm talking about. Speaker 1 (12:47) Link in bio. No, but there is, there is that thing when you're with comedians that you are peripherally friendly with, right? Like, you know, that, you know, we didn't cross paths a lot early on. It was, it was kind of later yeah and uh uh we had we went in early to vegas to go do that corporate gig i was so happy and it was cool and we had we had dinner in that weird restaurant do you remember like we went downstairs and we had that weird meal and uh and it was cool but then we went up and did the gig Speaker 1 (13:19) And Speaker 2 (13:20) it did not go well. The pull quote from the meal, did you bring your swim trunks? Speaker 1 (13:26) Did you remember? Yeah. Speaker 2 (13:28) Look, nobody needs any more podcasts with comedians taking themselves too seriously. But we're like assassins. We're going to Vegas to kill someone. And they're like, did you bring your swim trunks? It's like, no. Assassins don't go in the pool. Speaker 1 (13:45) We stay in our room and Speaker 2 (13:47) we look out the blinds. And then when a weird watch goes, beep, beep. And I start, you know what I mean? Speaker 1 (13:54) And then I go home. Right. I get on the plane. I love it. I love it. It's so clean. It's so great. But Speaker 2 (14:01) the gig wasn't great. I remember you being great. I'm not just saying that. Because they had had you before. They probably had you since then. I had been with the client. Have you been back? Speaker 1 (14:09) I think I went back. See? Holmesy's not back. But I, they were like, get that guy out of here. And I know this has happened to you because, because you're a killer. And there have been, there are certain times when you're with a comedian that you respect and for whatever reason you kill and they don't. Yeah. And that's weirdness. That's weirdness in your relationship. Yeah. Some people, if they're real periphery people. You may have never talked to them again. Speaker 2 (14:42) Yeah, sure. If Speaker 1 (14:42) you're tight. That's happened. If you're tight, but it's always like a thing that you care. So I did the gig. I had been with them all day. They'd known me. I was like hosting. I was their friend. I did the thing. It was fine. You went up and did your act. They were very chatty, unruly. They weren't listening. And you started going down. Yeah. I don't remember this, by the way. You don't remember this? I'm Speaker 2 (15:06) going Speaker 1 (15:06) to keep Speaker 2 (15:06) going. I love it. Speaker 1 (15:07) to the point where you were telling them, you know, these jokes have worked on The Tonight Show. You Speaker 2 (15:13) said these jokes work at Largo. I didn't say Speaker 1 (15:17) they Speaker 2 (15:17) work at Largo. Speaker 1 (15:17) If I Speaker 2 (15:18) said something, I would have said something that I understand. Wrath would know. Speaker 1 (15:21) Wrath was with me. Yeah, Speaker 2 (15:23) Wrath was with you. Oh, that's embarrassing. Speaker 1 (15:24) It was really, but it was... It was a corporate. It was a corporate. These jokes Speaker 2 (15:28) worked on Conan. That sounds like some awful thing I would say. Yeah, something Speaker 1 (15:31) like that. And you were just, you were like. Don't get Speaker 2 (15:34) close to the animals. Speaker 1 (15:35) And I was saying to your manager, I'm like, he should just plow. Yeah, I remember Dave told Speaker 2 (15:39) me that, actually. Speaker 1 (15:40) He should just plow. Who cares? But you weren't enjoying it. And there's a thing, as we know as comics, there's only so much you can take if you're unhappy. Yeah, that's right. Speaker 1 (15:52) I can plow and get through this and make this fine for everybody. Yeah. But now I'm angry. Yeah. And I'm going to let you guys have it. Honestly, Speaker 2 (15:59) that's what a bomb is to me now. It's not, not, and Val, my wife, reminds me of this. So it's, it's really funny. I'm going out and she goes, don't turn on them. Right. And that's the advice I need. Which is so funny because I don't Speaker 1 (16:14) see that in your personality of like the guy who would turn on him. That's what I think is, Speaker 2 (16:19) I think we're in a good, interesting area because I do pride myself or attempt, make an effort to be kind, to be gracious, to be present. I'm actually up there in search of connection and authenticity and discovering something in the aliveness of the moment, all that. And if it's not happening. And Speaker 1 (16:37) they were being rude. Ultimately, they were talking. It was a big baller thing. They're making a lot of money. This is the last event of the night. And they were rude in a certain point. That's real. Yeah, there was rudeness. And you were like, I'm not having this. Speaker 2 (16:53) Well, in therapy talk, I have some protectors. And you know that kind of language? Speaker 1 (16:59) Yeah, no. Speaker 2 (17:00) It's called internal family systems. One set, if I can plug it. I have a promo code. I'm just kidding. I'm just plugging a type of therapy because I did talk therapy for a decade and it's great. Talk therapy to me helped me understand boundaries and relationship dynamics. It helped me understand certain things about myself. It was invaluable. But especially for men, I'll say, although I think it's for everybody. really feeling, I know, feeling into these things and discovering that there is an exiled little child inside you that's scared and afraid. And then there are all these very strong avatars that we call protectors, that they call protectors. And I have protectors and my protectors are precious to me. And they're not all, the job of therapy is to tell the protectors, Speaker 2 (17:56) We're not in danger. We're not actually in danger. I Speaker 1 (17:58) don't need you right now. I Speaker 2 (17:59) don't need you right now. And first of all, you never start with, I don't need you right now. You always start with, my God, thank you. When I was seven, holy shit, I would have evaporated. You kept me alive. But we're applying the same strategy to a child. I'm 47. You just tell them. Speaker 1 (18:19) Sometimes Speaker 2 (18:19) it's quite funny. You can say, how old do you think I am? And I'm telling you. It sounds woo, but if you just kind of relax yourself into a state, it's not hypnosis, but you just kind of get honest. These things do talk back. And you go, how old do you think I am? And they're like, eight. And you're like, oh my God. So much has happened. Like I'm married. And you just start introducing them to your resources. Often your therapist is there and you go, I have Claudia. I have Valerie. Look at my, not in like a braggy cribs kind of way, but you're like, look at my house. I live here. I don't live in Boston anymore. It's just kind of updating them. How split Speaker 1 (18:58) personality is it though? It sounds like you're 10 out of Speaker 2 (19:01) 10. Speaker 1 (19:02) It sounds like you got a lot of people over there. I Speaker 2 (19:06) think the human experience is way weirder and what's the word? Divided or compartmentalized. than we would in our pants and with our coffee and our lunch make it seem. Speaker 1 (19:20) Right. Speaker 2 (19:20) And I think it's very healthy to look at your dreams. I think it's very healthy to go into these. I just ruined the podcast. No, no, no. I Speaker 1 (19:28) ruined it. No, it's interesting, but it's also confusing. It Speaker 2 (19:34) can be. Listen to someone smarter than me talking about internal family systems. I said all that to say this. If I think I'm under attack, Because when I'm bombing, when you're a comedian like me, meaning what I'm going for. is this mutual validation. I really do want to validate the crowd. I want them to go home feeling safer, more connected, happier, lighter. That comes Speaker 1 (20:03) through in your performance all the time. I appreciate that. When I started, it was Speaker 2 (20:07) come worship me. That's normal when you're a young man. Now it really is this thing. And when the risk of being a performer who isn't just trying to technically, and I don't mean you. I know I said you're technical. I just mean like, I'm not just doing my act and I'm not saying you. Yeah. I'm going to stop saying that, but I really don't mean you. No, I know what you mean. The guys Speaker 1 (20:30) who are just going to do their thing. Just do it. And the audience is almost like an afterthought. Some Speaker 2 (20:35) of these guys are my favorites. Speaker 1 (20:37) Yeah. But like, Speaker 2 (20:37) I'm. I Speaker 1 (20:38) wish I could be more like that sometimes. Speaker 2 (20:40) And I'm flattering myself when I say I'm risking more. I think what I kill. It is, ooh, it's the real shit. It's like the feeling of it and the feeling they got. It's like, I'm even gonna say it's almost holy. It's like, because it's whole, W-H-O-L-E, that's where we get that word. We all felt together. But when I do badly and we're not connecting and they're not understanding me, one of my core needs is to be understood. Speaker 1 (21:11) And Speaker 2 (21:11) that can get me in trouble. Speaker 1 (21:12) You're exactly describing that night. Speaker 2 (21:15) That's exactly right. Because it switched Speaker 1 (21:17) to, I'm going to tell you. Yeah, that's right. What you're not getting about me. That's right. Is what you were saying. I Speaker 2 (21:26) would rather you know who, to use the language of the night, who the fuck I am. I don't mean my career. I mean who I am. Right. And bomb. Then do eh and just vanish from your night. That's exactly Speaker 1 (21:41) what happened. It's Speaker 2 (21:42) like, I don't care. Kanye. the great Kanye who's never done anything wrong. Kanye had that line, it's like, not everybody feels the same way about me, but at least you feel something. That's a voice of a vulnerable part of me. And then I'm not happy to hear that. It doesn't upset me. I wish you had been like, and you stayed with it and you kept your cool. That to me is killing. Even if I'm bombing, if I can keep, so I'm wearing Fred Rogers. These are heroes of mine. People that have like a core, that have a reservoir that isn't really. contingent on what's happening. They dip into it and they know who they are. They know they're accepted. They accept themselves. And it's not your cup of tea and you don't sweat and you go, boy, I think we all wish this had gone differently, but you don't even say that. Speaker 1 (22:33) You don't Speaker 2 (22:33) even know. Cause you could even hold in your awareness. There