Raging Bull with David Krumholtz

Blank Check with Griffin & David

In this episode of 'Blank Check with Griffin & David,' actor David Krumholtz joins the hosts to discuss Martin Scorsese's acclaimed film 'Ra

Key takeaways

• De Niro's intense preparation and chemistry with Joe Pesci were instrumental in making 'Raging Bull' a landmark film.

Main topics

• Raging Bull as a cinematic masterpiece
• Robert De Niro's performance and transformation for the role

Notable quotes

Did you pod my cast?

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a mix of deep film analysis and playful banter,

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:04) Go Speaker 4 (0:22) get them champ. I'm the podcast. I'm the podcast. I'm the podcast. I'm the podcast. I'm the podcast. I'm the podcast. I'm the podcast. I'm the podcast. I'm the podcast. You Speaker 2 (0:35) unhappy with this? I love that. Okay. Speaker 4 (0:37) No, no, no. I'm very happy. The other one I was thinking about doing is if you podcast, you podcast. If you lose, you still podcast. There's no way you can lose. What's the word there? Win. If you win, you win. If you lose, you win. You still win. There's no way you can lose. Right. Yeah. I liked what you did. I thought that was Speaker 3 (0:57) great. Thank Speaker 4 (0:58) you. And for the listener at home, my handwork was perfect. Yeah. My form was immaculate. You're not an amateur boxer? Thank you. Thank you for asking. Have you ever boxed? Speaker 2 (1:09) I trained with a boxer, yeah. Like Speaker 3 (1:11) sort of Speaker 2 (1:12) a workout Speaker 3 (1:12) thing, right? And then I Speaker 2 (1:13) pinched both nerves. One nerve in each shoulder and went to a chiropractor and he fixed me. But part of him fixing me meant I wound up with an elbow that locks up for the rest of my life. What age was this? Speaker 4 (1:27) 30, 31. Speaker 2 (1:29) Okay. Yeah. So he fixed one thing by breaking another thing. Speaker 4 (1:33) Yes. Yeah. My father made me train in boxing to toughen me up when I was upper single digits and I hated it. And your weight was also upper single digits at that time, right? My weight was lower single digits. I could not crack 100 pounds. Well, single Speaker 3 (1:52) digits would be one pound lower single digits. Speaker 4 (1:55) I'm going to Speaker 2 (1:55) ask, you trained and did the person hit back? Speaker 4 (1:58) No, it was all kind of sparring, but it was at like a real boxing gym. And your father Speaker 2 (2:04) made you do it? Speaker 4 (2:05) Yes. My father used to, my father was, this Speaker 2 (2:09) has been talked Speaker 4 (2:09) about before. A degenerate gambling addict whose favorite bar was Jimmy's Corner. Are you familiar with Jimmy's Corner? Yeah, Speaker 2 (2:16) Jimmy's Corner. No, I'm not. On 44th Street. Speaker 4 (2:19) It was owned. He's sadly passed away. But Jimmy Glenn, who was a former boxing corner man. And so he had Jimmy Glenn, the owner of this bar, who was an old former boxer himself. And that's just Speaker 3 (2:30) when you're trying to get your kid a little bit Speaker 4 (2:32) of, you know, TLC. What you Speaker 3 (2:34) want to do is ask your favorite bartender for help. This is Speaker 4 (2:37) like me at nine. Oh, my God. And my brother was so jealous. And my brother was a very physically rambunctious child who would sometimes attack other kids just kind of like randomly. He had so much excess energy. He'd start wailing on them. And he wanted to box. And my parents were like, this is a terrible idea. And it was like a year and a half, two years maybe of me begging my parents to let me stop. And my brother begging to let him start. Wow. And finally, the switchover happened. And the second my brother boxed, he... completely balanced out. Speaker 2 (3:09) It, Speaker 4 (3:09) like, solved him. And he had golden gloves. He was a licensed fighter. He almost went pro as, like, a featherweight. Speaker 2 (3:18) But the two years that you boxed, you came away feeling like an inferior physical specimen. Crummy, you get me. Speaker 4 (3:25) I do. You get it hard. Speaker 2 (3:26) Yes. I Speaker 4 (3:27) hated it. It was, like, extra- If you didn't have Speaker 2 (3:29) a Napoleon complex prior to... Which I did. It only made it... Correct. ...infinitely. Especially Speaker 4 (3:37) because my brother's also a little guy. I don't got no giant brother. Speaker 2 (3:42) It's why when I shake your hand, you really squeeze the shit out of my hand. I Speaker 4 (3:46) squeeze really hard. And I locked in on your eyes. By the way, I do the Speaker 2 (3:49) same thing, but your squeeze is Speaker 4 (3:51) squeezier than Speaker 2 (3:52) mine. Speaker 4 (3:52) Yes. And we did a hug. I did a full body squeeze. I pinched those nerves. I Speaker 2 (3:57) don't want to insult you, but I didn't feel that happen. Speaker 4 (3:59) I think this is a good energy for this episode, though, because, you know, we're talking about confrontational. And brotherly love. Brotherly love. Brotherly Speaker 3 (4:06) love. Sort of the thin line here between insecurity and, you know, manhood. I became his manager. Speaker 4 (4:13) I kissed my brother's wife on the mouth. This is what happened. Yeah. What are you kissing on Speaker 2 (4:17) the mouth for? What are you kissing on the mouth for? Yeah, with your mother, sure. Is this? Is this the greatest repetition movie? Yes. Speaker 4 (4:23) I picked a quote that was obviously saying the same thing 87 times, but that's part of why I picked that. Well, it Speaker 3 (4:28) just feels like the way his Speaker 1 (4:29) brain has been smushed. Speaker 3 (4:31) Like, he's got to cycle through phrases over and over to kind of, like, get to the phrase. Yeah. It's Speaker 2 (4:37) also, you know, obviously all improvised, which is great. It's good? Good performance? Who's the lead guy in this? Huh. But... Obviously, all improvised, but, you know, with improv, you know this, that you feel, there's that, oh, the joke didn't land, let's try it again. Yes, yes. And genuinely, because of the chemistry between him and Pesci, great stuff comes out of the repetition. Correct. Yeah. And Speaker 4 (5:07) look, Scorsese, I'd say master of repetition in general. He's good at the rhythmic repetition of dialogue. He's good at making conversation feel real. But I think you're right. I think the punch drunk nature of this and how kind of like emotionally unevolved these guys are means that he gets a lot more latitude to just like they can just repeat the same thing for five minutes straight and just escalate the intensity of it. I Speaker 2 (5:29) came away thinking how in the world could they have ever made this movie without Joe Pesci? Speaker 3 (5:35) And yet they just found him randomly. Yeah. We'll talk about it. De Niro watches a TV. De Niro Speaker 2 (5:40) watches this thing and goes, I bet I would have incredible chemistry with that actor. Yeah. And they meet and they have legendary, immediate chemistry that then they're thrusting on to film. Right. That carries through other films. You know how, that is so strange. Yeah. That, that, that. De Niro intuited that. Well, especially Speaker 4 (6:07) he is the guy at this moment. He is like the new Brando. Correct. Right. He's already gotten one Oscar. He's done Speaker 2 (6:14) Taxi Driver. Yes. Mean Streets. Deer Hunter. Deer Hunter and The Godfather 2. Yes. So he is the guy. He's the guy. It's undisputed. Speaker 4 (6:25) The confidence is Speaker 2 (6:27) through the roof. Speaker 4 (6:28) He could get anyone to play Speaker 2 (6:30) his brother. Could get anyone to play his brother and steamroll them? Yes. And the movie's watchable. Yeah. Speaker 4 (6:36) And Speaker 2 (6:36) he goes, I'm going to let this little guy fucking shoot me out. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah. Speaker 4 (6:40) It's amazing. Joseph Pesci. Speaker 3 (6:42) Oscar nominee for this film. Speaker 4 (6:44) Sure that little Joey can sing. I think that was the name of his album, wasn't it? Little Joe sure can sing. Little Joe sure can sing. That was his album. Speaker 3 (6:51) Yeah. Griffin, what's this podcast? Speaker 4 (6:53) This podcast is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. Speaker 3 (6:58) I Speaker 4 (6:58) said I'm David. You kissed my wife? You kissed my wife? You kissed my wife on the mouth, David? Speaker 3 (7:04) David's laughing. Sorry. Kiss Speaker 4 (7:07) my Speaker 3 (7:07) wife? I would just not want to hang out with Jake LaMotta. I'll just say it. Yeah. I just Speaker 4 (7:12) don't think I'd find him very charming. Crummy, we just did New York, New York, which will have come out the week before this, right? Okay. Correct? Because Last Waltz is in between Last Waltz. Controversially, we're doing on Patreon. I'm sorry. He's got too many documentaries. But I made the argument that Jimmy Doyle is, of all the Scorsese, De Niro characters, that's the last one you want to date. Speaker 2 (7:37) Now, Speaker 4 (7:37) watching this movie, I was questioning it. I was weighing. I mean, Rupert Pupkin is. Rupert Pupkin's not great. Yeah, but he's going to, what, Speaker 3 (7:44) he's, you know, he's going to annoy you to death. He's going to annoy you to death. Right. Speaker 4 (7:48) Yes. I Speaker 3 (7:49) mean, LaMotta, Speaker 4 (7:50) though. LaMotta, there's some risk. There's some occupational hazard. Yeah. Speaker 3 (7:54) Yeah. He's a very, very tough customer. He is. No, but, like, we were kind of talking about how Jimmy is so. uncharismatic on top of everything else. No redeeming qualities. Right. He's very, very tough to imagine why you'd be around him in any sense. But Lomata is similar, but I guess he has some swagger to him initially that you sort of Speaker 2 (8:14) can see. And that's what's brilliant about this film. Yes. Is we're presenting an animal. Yes. We're telling people that he's an animal. And yet... A raging bull, if you will. A raging bull. And yet, they find a genuine humanity in this guy. And he has three kids. He has moments of being a peaceful, to some extent, person. He just wants to be Speaker 4 (8:44) a Speaker 2 (8:45) comedian. That's all he wants. You know, all this stuff. Speaker 4 (8:47) He's like Rupert Pumpkin in that sense. Speaker 2 (8:49) Yeah. And that's such a ridiculously fine line to make work that only De Niro can do it. And what do you... What were you doing in that first screening of this film, sitting in the audience? Yeah. How confused were you about what you were being asked? Yeah. Based on your cinematic knowledge up until 1980, what you were being asked to feel as an audience member about this guy? Speaker 4 (9:22) Well, even that was Scorsese's reluctance to making the movie of like, who cares about this fucking guy? I don't like this guy. I don't want to spend Speaker 3 (9:28) time with this guy. Right. Speaker 4 (9:30) This guy's unpleasant. He's a bore. Yes. In both spellings. Sure. Speaker 3 (9:37) Right. Three spellings. Oh, boy. Sure. B-O-R-E-B-O-A-R. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. He's got them all. It's an incredibly watchable film given how tough it is to watch. I guess is the way to, you know, that's the sort of score Speaker 2 (9:51) says. Speaker 3 (9:51) It's Speaker 2 (9:51) a Speaker 3 (9:51) timeless Speaker 2 (9:51) film. Yes. that elevated the art, especially of the biopic specifically, which was not really a thing that much. Speaker 4 (10:01) And was a very Speaker 2 (10:02) limited thing. I think it exists in a Speaker 4 (10:04) very specific vein. Speaker 2 (10:05) Sort of creates the map for what a biopic in an ideal way would be. The modern Speaker 3 (10:12) biopic. Right. Because there's obviously there's... There's the old boring Hollywood, like the story of Louis Pasteur. Right. You know, like that kind of. Pride of the Yankees kind of stuff. Yeah. I think it's important. Meet Speaker 2 (10:23) this Speaker 3 (10:23) nice guy. That I say Speaker 2 (10:24) this at this moment, which is that it is truly an honor to talk about this film. Thank you so much for asking me to talk about this film because I, there's only a small handful of films that I bow to. This is one of them. Oh, yes. What else has always been? Oh, God, let's not start because we're going to get into territory where it's a big. Oh, no, it's Speaker 4 (10:47) a Speaker 2 (10:47) small hand. What's in the hand? Speaker 4 (10:48) You Speaker 2 (10:49) know, there's a couple other Scorseses in there and a couple other. You know, there's some couple Spike Lee's and Spielberg's and Kubrick's and, you know, Speaker 4 (10:56) that kind of thing. Speaker 2 (10:58) But this is one for the ages. It completely validates the entire art form of cinema. I mean, it really does. And all the people that work to make great cinema happen. Yes. And it ends in such a meta way. It's akin to what Tarantino later did in Inglourious Basterds. Yes. Where the final line is, I believe this is my masterpiece. Essentially, you know, Scorsese does that in this film and says, this is my masterpiece. It's also Speaker 4 (11:35) him. thinking it's the last movie he's ever going to make or certainly the last studio movie he's ever going to make. I think as much as he's calling a shot, it's because he thinks it's the last chance he has to call a shot. Speaker 2 (11:45) I Speaker 4 (11:46) should say this is a podcast about filmography. Thank you. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers. This is the compulsion. I must say the full thing. Speaker 2 (11:53) No, yeah, but orientate people to what the hell we're talking about. I have to orientate people. This is many people's first episode, I'm sure. Sure. Speaker 4 (11:58) Directors who have massive success early on in their careers, such as Taxi Driver. and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they bounce baby, like New York, New York, which he is coming straight off of, and is the biggest bounce of his career. This is a miniseries on the films of Martin Scorsese. It is called Podcast Fellas. We are the titular podcast fellas. Today, we are talking Raging Bull with returning guest, the Raging Bull himself, David Krumholz. That's the sound of me, Ray. snorting you're Speaker 3 (12:32) not from the bronx you're from queens right yeah so you could be the queen's bull you can't bronx bull i yeah i guess so you know i always Speaker 2 (12:40) just because of the name queen i there's always a feminine sure uh i i so what's the feminine version of a bull uh cow Speaker 3 (12:49) cow Speaker 2 (12:49) yeah Speaker 3 (12:50) queen's cow yeah I was thinking Speaker 4 (12:52) the alliteration, too. What's an animal with a Q? Well, you're getting into tricky territory now, Ben. Yeah, that's tough. What animals do exist with Q? Quail. Quail! Speaker 2 (13:03) Oh, the queen's quail! The queen's quail! I like that. You're smiling. Yeah. What kind of noises do they make? Probably a little... Right, some kind of... Speaker 1 (13:13) The Speaker 4 (13:13) queen's quail gets in the ring. Yeah, there's Speaker 3 (13:17) a Speaker 4 (13:17) whole Speaker 3 (13:17) lot Speaker 2 (13:17) of others. Speaker 4 (13:18) There's Speaker 3 (13:18) the quokka. Speaker 2 (13:19) Oh, yeah, the quokka. Speaker 3 (13:20) Which is kind of like a weird little, like, furry guy. Little marsupial. Speaker 2 (13:25) Yeah, that's an Australian animal. Down under Speaker 3 (13:28) animal. Have you been to Australia? You've made a movie or two, and I feel like they shoot it down there. I made a movie Speaker 2 (13:33) last year that takes place in New Jersey, and we shot it in Melbourne, Australia. That's Speaker 4 (13:38) Hollywood 3.0 Speaker 2 (13:39) for you. That sure is. Speaker 3 (13:41) We've coined Hollywood 3.0 today to describe just like the fucking nonsense that goes on day to day. Hollywood 3.0. Speaker 2 (13:49) What was the New Jersey movie? What the heck? It's Speaker 3 (13:52) a Speaker 2 (13:52) movie that's coming out on Christmas Day this year called Mr. Irrelevant. Speaker 3 (13:56) Oh, yeah, with Superman and Puff. Yes, it's Speaker 2 (14:00) supposed Speaker 4 (14:00) to be very good. It's testing off the charts, Speaker 2 (14:02) says Hollywood 3.0. Speaker 3 (14:03) It Speaker 2 (14:03) is actually testing off Speaker 4 (14:04) the charts. Speaker 2 (14:04) It actually is. Yeah, John Tuggle story. I think we need more sports movies. Speaker 3 (14:09) It's Speaker 2 (14:10) a gap. I'm in for this movie. Jonathan Levine directed. The director. Absolutely beautiful. I hear it's like there's, it's a wonderful. film going experience. Speaker 4 (14:21) I have truly heard this. We have friends who were at a cinema con where they showed off a large chunk of it and people were like elevating. Speaker 2 (14:27) Yeah. Yes. It's, it's, it's levitating. I think it's the darkest of the dark horses for Oscars. Well, Speaker 4 (14:33) well, well, they Speaker 3 (14:34) called him Mr. Irrelevant and yet Michael Shannon's Speaker 2 (14:37) in Speaker 3 (14:37) it, right? Playing Bill Parcells. Michael Speaker 2 (14:38) Shannon Speaker 3 (14:38) is playing Bill Parcells. That is casting that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And Speaker 2 (14:42) I have a little sneaky, funny, good role in it. What are you, what are you playing at? None of your business. No, I play, Speaker 3 (14:49) Shut the Speaker 2 (14:49) fuck Speaker 3 (14:49) up. So it's about Speaker 2 (14:52) the New Speaker 3 (14:53) York Giants. New York Speaker 2 (14:54) Giants in 1983. They had an equipment manager who was with them for at least 30 years, I think, named Whitey. Whitey. Good. And, you know, the chance to play a Whitey for me is Speaker 4 (15:07) a huge. Speaker 2 (15:07) You need one finally in there. One in your camp. Yeah. And so Whitey had retired and was kind of listless. They have this. young player who gets diagnosed with, you know, questionably survivable cancer is likely going to croak. It's awful. It's tragic. He's 21 or 22 years old. And they call, they decide, the NFL and the Giants decide to do everything they possibly can to save this kid's life, to try and pay for it all. And they call Whitey and they go, what are you doing? And he's like, I'm missing, you know, Speaker 3 (15:50) I'm missing the action of being part of the team. And they go, Speaker 2 (15:53) how about you, will you drive this kid to all his appointments? So this older man who's retired becomes this kid's chauffeur and watches him slowly die. That's a good part. It's a good part. I enjoyed myself. Bill Parcells, Speaker 3 (16:10) you know what they called him? Griff. Mr. Relevant? No. The big tuna. One of the great sports names of all time. Why did he get that name? I'm not really sure where the name came from. Famously, Bill Parcells looked a lot like my dad, and people would mistake my dad for Bill Parcells. I can see that looking at you a little bit. Who Speaker 2 (16:28) was very Speaker 3 (16:28) famous, like, you know, when I was a kid. Like, he was the coach of the Giants, and then he was the... Didn't Speaker 4 (16:33) he Speaker 3 (16:33) wasn't he the coach of the Jets for a minute? Speaker 4 (16:34) He was. Yeah, he was a New York figure. This was my father, of course, New York in the 80s with Howie Mandel. Speaker 3 (16:40) Your father thought Speaker 4 (16:41) your father looked like Speaker 2 (16:42) Howie Mandel. His Speaker 3 (16:43) father, you know, when his dad had the curly hair and Howie had the curly hair. I can see. We will post like a glove. Speaker 4 (16:50) Hello. Over the head. Over the head. We will post on social media the side by side of Howie Mandel in this era and my father. But people would kind of raging bull style be like, hey, Mandel, you big timing me. Wow. Oh, you think you're too good for your fans, Mandel? You Speaker 2 (17:03) know who my dad looked like? Who? Son of Sam. David Berkowitz. That's a good one. And literally was from Queens, lived in the same neighborhood. Good timing. And Speaker 3 (17:12) dogs Speaker 2 (17:12) talked to him. And David Berkowitz was a mailman, and so was my dad. Yeah, the only difference was that Berkowitz had blue eyes and my dad had brown. I can think of one other difference. Speaker 3 (17:22) And also he didn't commit murder. Well, there's that. That's Speaker 2 (17:24) the Speaker 3 (17:24) difference I was thinking of. How good a mailman was David Berkowitz? Bad. I have to admit, I can't imagine. I can't imagine he was very good. I probably Speaker 2 (17:31) ate the letters, right? I don't know if he was a paper eater. I have recurring dreams, coincidentally, in which I'm pulling large pieces. I'm in public in a situation where I need to talk to people. Yeah. And in the dreams, I'm pulling endless amounts of paper, chewed up paper out of my mouth. Oh, it's in there already. It's in there already. And I have to stop. And they're very vivid, realistic dreams. I have to stop and pull paper. out of in between my teeth, out of my throat. Oh. And then I looked up like what those mean. And I think they said something like, you know, obviously they're anxiety dreams, but something to the, like you have something you need to get off your chest. Something Speaker 3 (18:16) unspoken. Speaker 2 (18:17) Yeah. You need to read what's on the paper. That's the answer. Speaker 4 (18:20) That's how you resolve the dreams. Well, Speaker 2 (18:21) it's all chewed Speaker 4 (18:21) up, man. Speaker 2 (18:21) It's all bits Speaker 4 (18:22) of paper. Speaker 2 (18:22) Unfold it, piece it back together, take a blow dryer. We're talking about mulch. We're talking about mulch. Speaker 4 (18:29) I Speaker 2 (18:29) mean, but in Speaker 3 (18:29) Inception. You know, that's, you always, right? Like, that's, it's like, you always have to find, like, the weird papers in your dream. And that's, like, where the secret is. Right. And Speaker 4 (18:37) that's how you come up with a great idea to retire and let someone else Speaker 3 (18:40) run your dad's Speaker 4 (18:41) business. You Speaker 3 (18:41) worked with Chris Nolan. You should text him every time you have a weird dream being like, hey, Inception guy, explain this dream. You do this? I Speaker 2 (18:47) don't have any way of Speaker 3 (18:48) contacting him. Speaker 2 (18:49) Well, Speaker 3 (18:49) because Speaker 2 (18:49) he doesn't have a goddamn phone. Yeah, Speaker 4 (18:50) he Speaker 2 (18:50) doesn't have any. Well, beyond that, I don't think Chris would want to. Oh, you Speaker 4 (18:56) gave a phenomenal performance. Speaker 2 (18:57) I don't think that matters. Speaker 2 (19:01) To him or me, to be honest with you. Speaker 3 (19:05) I just think it would be funny if it's like when you know a doctor. Yeah. And you're like, hey, look at this mole. Or, you know, like, hey, Chris, you did Inception. What does this dream mean? You must love people's weird dreams. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 4 (19:17) David Krumholz is here. David Krumholz is here. Oh, yeah. Okay. The last time you were on the show, we talked about Sensible Woman, who is, you know, we're talking the other giant of this era. Speaker 3 (19:27) Well, he's talking the other best actor. You know, he did Pacino's Best Actor trophy, and this is De Niro's Best Actor trophy. Yeah. Speaker 2 (19:34) I wouldn't call Pacino the only other giant. I think there's a triumvirate. You're right. Who's Speaker 4 (19:41) the Speaker 2 (19:41) third? Hoffman. Speaker 4 (19:42) Yeah. Speaker 2 (19:43) Of that era. Of that era. Those are the three guys who were chasing each other. Those are the three, and they're rewriting the rules of acting. Yes. And Speaker 3 (19:50) they're three guys who I feel like a generation prior, Hollywood would have been like, well, you're not a movie star. You don't have the look of a movie star. Right. Speaker 2 (19:57) They look like a butcher. They are ethnic American. Speaker 3 (20:00) Ethnic. They're small. They're kind of like, they got, they're handsome, but they got kind of funny faces, right? You know, they're not convention. Speaker 2 (20:07) Do they make those movies? Do they make, well, maybe The Graduate, but do they make Midnight Cowboy, Raging Bull, and let's say Serpico today? Not really. No. Speaker 4 (20:20) Or Dog Day, yeah. Speaker 2 (20:21) They don't. Speaker 3 (20:22) Raging Bull is the closest in that like Hollywood will still Speaker 2 (20:25) respond to it. Because it's Speaker 3 (20:26) a Speaker 2 (20:26) boxing movie, Speaker 3 (20:27) right? And like a true story, real person movie. What is it with Serpico? Speaker 2 (20:32) Maybe. Speaker 3 (20:33) That feels Speaker 4 (20:34) like Speaker 3 (20:34) a TV show. It definitely Speaker 4 (20:35) is a TV show. The answer is that all three of those things would be TV shows now. Which is a shame. I think there is sort of like a Mount Rushmore of the male acting performances, the leading male performances that Speaker 3 (20:51) people Speaker 4 (20:51) like lose their minds over that are sort of held up as the highest. Speaker 3 (20:54) Indelible, right. So Scent of a Woman Speaker 4 (20:56) is number one. Scent of a Woman is number one. Number two is Scent of a Woman. Chris O'Donnell. Right. That's right. Yes. No, I think it's Raging Bull. Speaker 2 (21:05) Sure. Speaker 4 (21:05) It's Raging Bull for sure. That's Speaker 2 (21:06) the Speaker 4 (21:06) first one. I Speaker 3 (21:07) think it's if Speaker 4 (21:07) you combine the two Godfather Pacino performances. Sure. Or you could pick either one. Speaker 2 (21:13) No, definitely not. You're way off. Really? Yeah, you're getting crazy. What do you think? Jimmy Stewart in It's a Wonderful Life. Well, that's quite a good Speaker 4 (21:21) performance. I Speaker 2 (21:22) think Denzel and Malcolm X is in it. Denzel, Speaker 4 (21:24) Malcolm X. Yes. Absolutely. Are we talking streetcar? Are we talking on the waterfront? You kind of have to put Brando. I think you kind of have to. But I'm going to go. Speaker 2 (21:34) God almighty. I'm going to go Nicholson Cuckoo's Nest. Speaker 3 (21:39) Jack is sort of outside. Because he's not an ethnic Speaker 2 (21:43) American. He's straight down the middle. He's straight down the middle. No. Yeah, that's true. Speaker 3 (21:47) In fact, what is Jack Nicholson's? Isn't he Irish? Speaker 4 (21:51) I Speaker 2 (21:51) don't know. Yeah, I Speaker 4 (21:51) would imagine. Yes. Speaker 3 (21:53) New Jersey's Speaker 4 (21:54) on. Speaker 3 (21:55) But we're not here to talk about Jack Nicholson. We're not. Speaker 4 (21:57) No. Speaker 2 (21:58) Irish, Speaker 3 (21:58) German, English, Speaker 4 (22:00) and Welsh descent. There you go. Fair Speaker 3 (22:01) enough. Speaker 4 (22:01) This is still a performance that people use as shorthand. Oh, 100%. I think this is the Speaker 2 (22:07) number one. Yes. You know? I saw this film when I was 21 for the first time. Mm Speaker 4 (22:12) -hmm. Speaker 2 (22:14) It changed everything for me because up until that point, I had only really wanted to do comedy, do comedy, done comedy. There was no or, you know, cartoonish character shit. Suddenly I watched this film and thought I could do that. I don't know how, but if I just try. You want to do that. Like, trying. The goal has changed. To do that. Yeah. If I could do 10 % of the immersion and the intimacy and the intensity of what De Niro did in Raging Bull, if I could do 10%, I would get dramatic jobs. The intimacy thing is fascinating. It's just an outrageously monolithic performance. It's arguably the greatest lead performance ever. That is very arguable. Speaker 4 (23:09) I think, I mean... No one's going to call you crazy for saying that. Certainly not. It's a reasonable opinion. I Speaker 3 (23:15) also think it's something where I have the experience of like, I watched this film, I was very struck by it as a young man. You know, like, obviously it's Speaker 4 (23:24) a Speaker 3 (23:24) totemic film Speaker 4 (23:25) and it's a top... Back when you were a featherweight. Speaker 2 (23:28) I've never been a featherweight. I'm Speaker 3 (23:30) sorry. Speaker 4 (23:31) I hit this Speaker 3 (23:32) height when I was 13. I've always been a big boy. Yeah. And then you, you know, you have a few years from it and you're like, oh, but isn't that, it's just him screaming and yelling, isn't it? Then you watch the movie again. You're like, I forgot how good this movie is. Like, and how good, like, and I forgot how it's not whatever the stereotype. I think intimacy is the word. You said it. That's the whole, Speaker 4 (23:52) that's the magic factor. It's the volcanic stuff. Let me bring my Speaker 2 (23:56) bantamweight perspective to this. Okay. God damn it. The sound editing in this film is a new roadmap suddenly for all sound editing going forward. The intimacy of the sound of that film. There is no film that sounds like Raging Bull to this day. There are attempts, but there, so you are as an audience member being whispered to, you're being shouted at. They're speaking to your soul. It's brilliant sound editing. Do you know the thing that... So much of it, by the way, is ADR, clearly. Yes. Oh, yes. Speaker 4 (24:41) But that Marty drove everyone crazy because he insisted that every punch, every flashbulb be a unique sound, that they not repeat any specific sounds. which a lot of it's like foley work and it's over the top in a certain way and the context Speaker 2 (24:55) you know when he's in miami with at his house and he asks the photographer to take a picture that they could pay for us for us get in here sweetheart and they surround him and the moment the first flash goes off you hear one of his children scream yeah you're Oh my God. Just whatever standard film had come to just Scorsese manipulating the shit out of what was before to create. Speaker 2 (25:26) something incredibly profound and new. I'm Speaker 4 (25:29) going to go even one higher than you. I think this movie is very well directed. When I was watching it, I said, who is the Scorsese kid? Yes. And Speaker 2 (25:40) Chapman. Chapman. Yes. There's not a frame in this movie that isn't a painting. It Speaker 3 (25:47) didn't win the Oscar, which it's, you know, the Speaker 2 (25:50) Oscars are not the end of the world, but it's shocking. Speaker 3 (25:52) Yeah. For cinematography. What did? Tess, the Polanski film, which I'm sure Jeffrey Unsworth, like, I'm sure had gorgeous vistas of the Moors, right? You know, like, that is, in my dim memory, a pretty movie. Sure. But this is one of those things where, one, you can show five seconds of Raging Bull in some clip package. Yeah. As you see all the time in these kind of, De Speaker 2 (26:17) Niro, or, you know, you'll Speaker 3 (26:19) see him rolled out at award shows or on TV. And you're just, you lean forward. And any shot. Because Speaker 2 (26:25) you cannot Speaker 3 (26:25) believe how this movie. An insert shot would get that response. Speaker 2 (26:28) And. Why black and white? Do we have theories? Oh, Speaker 3 (26:31) we can talk about it. Yeah. I'm sure that'll be in the research because I think there was a lot of reasons for the black and white. And just, no one's made a sports movie look this good. I know it's reductive to call it a sports movie. But no one's made like boxing look like this ever again. And just the, with the smoke and the, you know, just that you're in his mind in there. Speaker 2 (26:52) Well, yeah. Speaker 3 (26:52) And the theater of it ended that sort of just the slaughterhouse of it. What were you going to say? No, Speaker 2 (26:56) the contrast of how beautifully lit. almost theatrically lit the boxing matches are with the crudeness of how the rest of it is. The natural light through it all. It's just... Speaker 4 (27:12) Well, the key to this movie is, you know, Marty said, I don't want to do this. I don't get this. And De Niro kept on insisting, we'll get into this in depth. But then he finally figured out, he was like, oh, boxing's a metaphor. Boxing doesn't matter. I can't think of this as a boxing movie. It's about getting in the ring. It's about whatever that thing is in your life. And Speaker 2 (27:31) let's face it, Scorsese doesn't need to be directed with, but this is the movie where he lets De Niro sort of direct. They're collaborating. They're clearly, this is a 50-50 job. Yes. In fact, I can open the dossier. The trust is through the roof. What is required of De Niro? See, I'm now going to watch, behold as I marry this into a discussion about AI. Perfect. Let's Speaker 3 (27:58) do it. Speaker 2 (27:58) Because I could have done this movie. We agree. What's required of De Niro is this genuine raw soul searching, sort of an access that he is displaying to his own emotional nuance, the complicated levels of who De Niro is as a person, who an actor should be as a person, right? Someone who emulates humanity. in nuanced fashion that arguably no actor before after had. And to give of that, to bear himself raw. He had to have trained mentally for this, not just physically, right? And you know that this is all stuff you know as an audience member. And two different physical states. And two different physical states. Yes. One misshapen. Yes. Which Speaker 4 (28:47) is also two different mental states married to those. Yeah. Speaker 2 (28:50) And the confidence, the nearest confidence, who's 36 at this point when he makes this movie. That's disgusting. He's playing a 19-year-old, though. Yes. Right, right. Essentially at the beginning. Yeah. It's through the roof. And the uniqueness. of De Niro that he has to face and live with the burden of De Niro's uniqueness applied to the uniqueness of Jake LaMotta. And there is no way, and you know this watching it, there is no way that De Niro is not in some sort of existential pain playing this character. Speaker 4 (29:29) Yes, and also there's something clearly that drew him to it. Correct. That he needed to express. That Speaker 2 (29:35) he Speaker 4 (29:35) couldn't really shake. This role Speaker 2 (29:36) is a sacrifice and a half that he's, and he's giving. It's giving, it's constantly giving. Now, you have to be human. To understand the true depth of not only the performance, but of the film. You have to be, right? Now, here's where I married into AI. Let's do it. Who on, would you, you don't want to watch an AI basketball game, do you? Why would anyone? Why do we watch sports? We Speaker 3 (30:01) watch sports Speaker 2 (30:03) because it's human beings, which we are, doing what we can't do. Okay? Speaker 2 (30:10) You cannot expect AI to make an impact with audiences in a way that film can. Film, I mean real, I should say real people can't. Humans can't on film. Because the audience is human. Everybody's talking about when they have these arguments about AI, they go, you know, well, what's the difference between a human actor and an AI actor? And if AI will learn from what humans do, everyone discounts the audience. The audience is human. It can only empathize with humanity. Speaker 3 (30:44) Well, and that's the challenge of Raging Bull is like, it's not like I want you to understand that Jake LaMotta is a good guy or even that Jake LaMotta. is sympathetic in a way of like, you know, here's why he behaved this way. It's not a like, don't you understand? Jake LaMotta just had a tough time. And that's why he was such a piece of shit. It's not that. It's more just, you need to look at this darkness and this, you Speaker 2 (31:07) know. He Speaker 3 (31:07) existed. This exists. This is part of the human existence. Speaker 1 (31:10) Right. And understand the nightmare of the human Speaker 3 (31:12) spectrum that he was on and that there's something to relate to, which is true Taxi Driver 2. that makes it all the more compelling. Like, you know, that you're like, there's something to relate to, even though he's a fairly despicable person pretty much all the time. And Speaker 4 (31:26) also that there's like a sacrifice here, not just in the characters, but in the making of this movie. That is a thing that AI can never experience. I Speaker 2 (31:36) mean, this is the conversation Speaker 4 (31:37) right now. I just think it's like, it was such a good fucking knockout punch is just like everyone flipping their shit over the Odyssey. Everyone circles back to the same thing, which is like, this looked really difficult to make. Speaker 2 (31:48) This Speaker 4 (31:48) was not easy. And I'm appreciating the sacrifice and the effort of this. And I want to see it on the biggest screen. And it's like, that's a fucking knockout punch. The people who want to watch AI shit Speaker 3 (32:00) don't want to pay for it. It's not just AI. It's also just, you know, the years we went through people being like, eh, no one wants the movie experience anymore. You know, like that's being refuted is lovely. You know, Speaker 2 (32:13) Scorsese is not an insular filmmaker, right? He's referential. But so many, you know, because, well, because he himself is a cinema expert, right? But so many filmmakers make movies, quote unquote, they say this, for themselves. You've got to make the movie for yourself, be happy with it, and then the audience will love it. No. Scorsese goes, I'm the audience for my own film. I am. all kinds of versions of that audience. I am the highfalutin, highbrow, erudite guy sitting in the back row, and I'm also the kid in the front row. And what can satisfy everyone? And he's anticipating how the audience will feel, and he's literally framing shots and directing scenes from that perspective. The greatest trick that Scorsese pulls in this film is challenging the audience. Like, what in the world are they supposed to be feeling? You know, Taxi Driver is a straight drama. Yeah. Right? Okay, now this movie. It's a brutal comedy. It's a funny tragedy. Sure. It's so many things in stark contrast. It's comedy, love, family, bonds, violence, paranoia, sympathy, rage, disgust, sorrow, horror. You know, peace, triumph, success, ego, tranquility, the burden of ambition, you know. And ultimately, it's the story. It's exactly what it should be, which is the story of one life to tell a story about the pugilistic nature of all lives and all life. Yeah. And just. What an undertaking. And if he fucks it up and he didn't even think he should make the movie. Yes. And if he fucks this up, people will come out of the theater going, that director is a psychotic person. And his Speaker 3 (34:09) career is up. Or close to it, because his career is already in a little bit Speaker 2 (34:13) of trouble. And Speaker 3 (34:14) it's sort of Speaker 2 (34:14) like, Speaker 3 (34:15) you know, why do you do that? I think the fact that he doesn't really care about sports, which he's very upfront about, matters a lot in the movie, too, because I like sports movies. Like, I like a schematic sports movie just fine. Like, I enjoy an underdog story. I enjoy this shit. But... you know, so many sports movies lock into like, okay, well, we need to see where he initially succeeded. Then he was brought low with this battle. And like his biggest triumph in this movie on in the ring is like grinning like a freak at Sugar Ray Robinson. He didn't knock me down. Yeah. Sugar Ray Robinson is just like, what? Okay. That's Speaker 4 (34:49) not Speaker 3 (34:49) a win. Right. And it's just like, you literally lost. that he's so separated from whatever the point of boxing is at that moment in life and at no point is there the scene where someone's like you did it here's the belt the arc of his career is this sort of dim noise in the movie at best Speaker 4 (35:10) he buys Speaker 3 (35:11) a building at Speaker 1 (35:12) one point Speaker 3 (35:13) and they're like from Speaker 1 (35:14) fights and he's like and you're Speaker 3 (35:17) like Jesus he's a fucking landlord like this Speaker 1 (35:19) guy Speaker 3 (35:20) He can't be served a steak without having a panic attack. Speaker 4 (35:23) I also, I think the core thing this movie is about in a lot of ways is like the thing you're great at being a detriment to every other aspect of your life. Speaker 1 (35:33) Everything Speaker 4 (35:34) that makes him a good Speaker 2 (35:35) boxer. Well, if your ego, it's also about ego danger. Speaker 4 (35:39) Yes. If you don't have emotional intelligence. Correct. Yes. If you're Speaker 2 (35:42) not in conversation Speaker 4 (35:43) with yourself. Yeah. Because Speaker 2 (35:45) he's a fighter. Yes. That's a great fighter. Right. Who. is able to