Dina's Dating Brief

Bill to...etc.

In this candid episode of Bill to...etc., Dina Holland opens up about her divorce, embracing her new chapter at age 50, and the emotional journey of

Key takeaways

• Divorce is not a failure but an opportunity for reinvention and self-discovery.
• Marriage involves committing to all versions of your partner—including their unresolved childhood issues.

Main topics

• Divorce and personal reinvention
• Long-term marriage and relationship dynamics

Notable quotes

"When you're standing up there marrying someone, what you're really saying is, I love this version of you today, and I love all future versions of you that I don't even know."

Conclusion

Dina's journey reflects a powerful message: life after divorce can be liberating, authentic,

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) you Speaker 1 (0:02) Welcome to Built to Etc. I'm your host, Dena Speaker 2 (0:04) Holland, founder of Honey and Fitz Interiors. And I'm your co-host, Ariana Paolino, lead project designer. Speaker 1 (0:09) We're bringing you behind the scenes of running a design firm. Beautiful projects. Ugly budgets. Client curveballs. Vendor excuses. And all the chaos required to make a room look effortless. We're going to talk design. Speaker 2 (0:20) Business. How we stay in business. Objectifying men. Why our jeans aren't fitting this week. Who Speaker 1 (0:26) did something to piss us off and why we're right. We're going to talk about whatever we feel like. How's that? A Speaker 2 (0:30) quick disclaimer. Speaker 1 (0:31) We're Speaker 2 (0:31) opinionated, we're occasionally petty, and we swear like grown women. And while we love your children, this podcast is probably not for them. Speaker 1 (0:38) Because some things get billed to the client. And some things get billed to, etc. Speaker 1 (0:44) That's a cute necklace. Speaker 2 (0:45) Hey, I didn't notice it before. Are you wearing it before? When Speaker 1 (0:47) I had it on together? Oh, thank you. Um, this literally is just out of the package. This is that free people romper that everyone loves, but I found it on Amazon for like $26. You Speaker 2 (0:57) can find everything on Amazon. It's really Speaker 1 (0:58) the way to go. Unfortunately, Jeff Bezos just keeps getting richer. Speaker 2 (1:04) Yeah. Off of the money that we can barely afford to spend, but yet somehow spend it all on Amazon. Speaker 1 (1:09) Uh, how's it going? I'm not stressed about this episode. I'm not. I'm not stressed. I'm not stressed. Do Speaker 2 (1:15) you Speaker 1 (1:15) hear it? I'm Speaker 2 (1:16) not Speaker 1 (1:16) stressed Speaker 2 (1:16) about this episode. This is the episode that everybody, like, I don't understand. You bitches Speaker 1 (1:24) are so nosy. Why are we talking about, why Speaker 2 (1:26) are we trying to pretend to talk about interior design when this is all people want? This is what people want. Speaker 1 (1:32) So this episode is about dating. And a few months ago at this point, I feel like Ashley put out an Ask Me Anything. And I don't know how many percentages of what percentage of the question was about. Ninety Speaker 3 (1:44) nine. Speaker 1 (1:46) Ninety nine. Ninety nine percent of the. They were like, shh, are you dating? Right. Which I understand, honestly. And the reason I decided to do this episode is because here's the thing. I have been online in some fashion. My blog, Instagram. Instagram I've been on for. Speaker 1 (2:05) at least 13 years. That's crazy. My blog was over 15 years ago. There are people still to this day who follow me on Instagram. That started from the blog. Yeah, and they comment all the time. So I like to, I think about it this way. If that was me and I knew that someone I followed from way back when had had this huge life change and we were about the same age, which many of the people who follow me, I would also be like, you're like true Speaker 2 (2:31) reality TV almost. Speaker 1 (2:33) Because you do put your life on the line. Yes, Speaker 2 (2:36) absolutely. Speaker 1 (2:36) And people, anytime people run into me out in the wild and they're like, oh my God, I follow you on Instagram. It's so weird. I know, but like, how is California? Whenever we go to Speaker 2 (2:44) a new client, oh Speaker 1 (2:46) my God, I feel like I'm meeting a celebrity in real life. And Speaker 2 (2:49) I'm like, Speaker 1 (2:49) her? Exactly. Exactly right. So I say that to say, like, I understand why people are, of course, I would be curious too. Like we do, we're in the office every day being like, what? Yeah. Google that right now. What happened? That's Speaker 2 (3:03) the Speaker 1 (3:03) et cetera of our correct bill too. So obviously I can do what I want. I don't have to share, but like, I get it. Yeah. And I'm happy to talk to people about it. To some extent. Yeah, to some extent. I think I reserve the right to like, you know, my kids are teenagers. They're online. There are certain things like I'm not going to go into detail with a lot of things. I think that that's okay. But I think it's natural for people to have that curiosity because I would do the same thing. Speaker 2 (3:27) And also I feel like there are a lot of other people who are in your same boat. Totally. Who like can relate to it. Absolutely. And will feel... Speaker 1 (3:37) Like their scene. Totally. Like I don't have a lot of friends who are divorced or in this different chapter of their life, but I seem to have a lot of followers that are because I've heard from all of them in the last few years, you know? So I get it. So Ariana has prepared questions. I Speaker 2 (3:54) have prepared questions. Speaker 1 (3:56) I'm ready. Okay. Fuck it. Okay. Speaker 1 (4:02) So, elephant in the room, you're divorced. I'm divorced. I'm divorced. And, you know, it's one of these things that, like, no one thinks that they're gonna, no one gets married thinking they're gonna get divorced, certainly. Except for the people who get prenups. Right. Those Speaker 2 (4:15) people think they might. They Speaker 1 (4:16) might. Speaker 2 (4:17) They're Speaker 1 (4:17) being realistic. Speaker 2 (4:18) Honestly? I get it. Speaker 1 (4:21) I was married for 20 years. I was 24 when I was married, you Speaker 2 (4:24) know? Speaker 1 (4:25) You're part of the generation who got married like Speaker 2 (4:28) so Speaker 1 (4:29) young. And now 20 years later, that seems so young to get married. That is so young to Speaker 2 (4:34) get Speaker 1 (4:34) married. Speaker 2 (4:34) But Speaker 1 (4:34) when I was getting married, that wasn't. That was normal. That was normal. How long had you guys been together? Two years. Two and a half, Speaker 2 (4:42) three years. Okay, so that's not like, that's not crazy. No. Like I have friends who like, I'm 30. People are getting married around my age, but have been together for two years. Yeah. Speaker 1 (4:50) So, like, the, that's Speaker 2 (4:52) normal. Like, Speaker 1 (4:52) I was definitely on the earlier side of my friends getting married, but only by maybe a year and a half, two years max. Yeah, Speaker 2 (4:57) yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (4:57) You know what Speaker 2 (4:58) I Speaker 1 (4:58) mean? Um. I mean, like, whatever. Shit doesn't work out sometimes. Yeah. Like, the craziest thing to me about marriage, and I think about this so much now in this new chapter of my life, is that when you're standing up there marrying someone, what you're really saying to them is, I love this version of you today, and I love all future versions of you that I don't even know. I was just going to say that any possible version that's about to come out. And guess what? The version of me that's standing here is going to change. That's just what life is. That's why you change. And some people are good at changing together and some people just aren't good at changing together. And the other thing that I have learned, let's just put my little psychology hat on, is that when you are getting married to someone, you are really marrying. all of their childhood demons. Oh. When you're having a fight with that person, when you're not agreeing, you, that's who you're in a marriage with. Speaker 2 (5:49) You're Speaker 1 (5:49) fighting with 10-year-old them. Because nothing triggers the things that happened to you in your childhood in your own family of origin like creating your own family of origin. Like creating your own family. Something about that is very trigger in subconscious ways that people don't even know about. They don't. But all of Speaker 2 (6:04) a Speaker 1 (6:04) sudden, they don't know about it because we don't talk about it. Totally. And I hope Speaker 2 (6:07) that that's changing. I think your generation is. I actually think it's started with my generation, but I really do think it's even younger. Even. Yeah. Like, I feel like what Speaker 1 (6:17) is the generation? Alpha. Speaker 2 (6:18) Alpha. No, I'm millennial, technically. So it's Gen Z. I Speaker 1 (6:21) thought Gen Alpha was after. My kids are Gen Alpha. There's one Speaker 2 (6:24) in between your kids and me. Oh, Z. Speaker 1 (6:26) I think it's Z. Yeah. So I think Z and Alpha are Speaker 2 (6:30) like more self-aware. Totally. Well, also. They're in therapy. Yeah. Like because it's more public. It's more like advertised on social media and all that. Exactly. Speaker 1 (6:40) I mean, it's like, you know, whatever. I think that I have lots of friends who everyone understands that. It's like a long term marriage is it's a slog. Speaker 2 (6:48) Yeah. And. Speaker 1 (6:51) it just Speaker 2 (6:52) like it just i mean even i i have i've only been married for almost a year but i've been with steve for 10 like so even that is like i have seen a lot of different versions of him he has seen a lot of different versions and then you had Speaker 1 (7:04) kids to the mix yeah and then and then you change as a person it's it's Speaker 2 (7:08) a Speaker 1 (7:08) lot it's a lot um but on the flip side never been happier yeah Speaker 2 (7:14) like Speaker 1 (7:15) truly have never been and the most interesting thing is that Speaker 1 (7:22) people who knew me before I got married, which would be my family, my college roommates, my parents, right? Like those people see me now and they're like, hey, girl, you're Beth. People who didn't know me then are like, oh my gosh, you're so different. Speaker 2 (7:37) Which is kind of me because I obviously totally met you when you were married. And like, I feel like I... I saw a difference. Like, I only ever Speaker 1 (7:50) saw Speaker 2 (7:50) you separate. Speaker 1 (7:52) Totally. Speaker 2 (7:52) You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. As Speaker 1 (7:54) an Speaker 2 (7:54) individual. As an individual. So I feel like I kind of knew what was beneath. But then, like, as I was talking to him, I was like, oh. Like, she's kind of changing. And then when you said that, I was like, I can see that. I can see how Speaker 1 (8:05) you would have been like that prior. Yeah, my mom is like, you haven't been like this since you were 16. And I'm like... But now I'm 50. Look out. Speaker 2 (8:15) You're like, I can do way more damage at 50 than I can do at 16. I Speaker 1 (8:18) got so Speaker 2 (8:18) much more Speaker 1 (8:18) money to fuck this shit up. Speaker 2 (8:22) Okay, so what's it like dating after being married for 20 years? 20, yeah. It's Speaker 1 (8:29) crazy. Speaker 2 (8:31) Yeah. Speaker 1 (8:31) Like, I... Speaker 1 (8:35) I didn't date for a while. Speaker 2 (8:37) I was going to say, how long did you not date? Yeah. At least a year. I think it was at least a year. Speaker 1 (8:45) Maybe even Speaker 2 (8:45) closer to two. Yeah. Speaker 1 (8:46) I mean, at least a year before I was like, all right, let's really... I mean, and in that year, I went on dates. Yeah. But not really being like, let's see who's out here. Yeah. I mean... Not making an active effort. No. And I definitely didn't get on dating apps, for sure. Speaker 2 (9:01) It's Speaker 1 (9:01) like, I wasn't interested in any of... of that. I mean, I don't know. Speaker 2 (9:06) I'm Speaker 1 (9:06) a pretty outgoing person. Like I talk to everyone everywhere I go. It's not hard to meet people. Right. But I guess I'll say it this way. I think if you are out here today in today's world, truly date, I feel bad for people, women specifically, I feel bad for women who are actively dating, looking for a partner. Like, not just casual. Speaker 2 (9:30) Not just for funsies. Yeah, not just Speaker 1 (9:32) for Speaker 2 (9:32) funsies. Like, Speaker 1 (9:33) if you're just casually looking to meet people, spend time with people, companionship, going out to dinner, blah, blah, blah. Fine. Fab. Yeah. Like, but if you're trying to really build a long-term relationship, I mean, the world is just so different. Like, you have to imagine, when I got married, cell phones had just started. Like, a flip phone had just come out. Just a Razer phone. Nokia. Can't tell me shit with this Razer phone. I'm so cool. Like that, literally, right? The internet was fairly new. Smartphones weren't a thing. Dating apps. Dating apps were not a thing. Exactly. I remember being in my pre-cana. Did you have to do pre-cana with Steve? I got married in the Catholic Church. And in the Catholic Church, you have to do these classes beforehand. Classes by which a priest who's never been married will sit there and tell you how to have a good marriage. Right. And I remember. You can Speaker 2 (10:22) tell by my face how I feel about that. And Speaker 1 (10:24) I remember being in that room and we were going around talking, like saying how we met. And I met my ex, like all good Catholic people at a bar. Speaker 2 (10:33) Same here. You know what I'm saying? Speaker 1 (10:34) But there was one couple in there specifically who met their. Oh, you were in it with other people. Oh, yeah. It's a group thing. It's Speaker 2 (10:39) a Speaker 1 (10:39) weekend long group thing. Oh, my God. A weekend long? Like you had to go away for a Speaker 2 (10:43) weekend? I don't think we went away. It was like two Speaker 1 (10:45) nights, two days. Excuse me. I know. But some people do go away. And anyway, they had said that they had met on like eHarmony and everyone was like, whoa, these people are fake. Oh my, right. Like, oh my God, these people met online. Right. Scandal. The world couldn't be more different. Yeah. And. Speaker 1 (11:04) The combination of dating apps and smartphones. Yeah. Yo, it's just wild. It's happening. What men are comfortable. I was just Speaker 2 (11:14) going to say, is it is it because like Speaker 1 (11:17) there's so many thoughts going around in my head. Speaker 2 (11:19) One, because there's no. Speaker 2 (11:26) monitor, like, monetize it, monetize it, monitoring, monitoring. Not Speaker 1 (11:30) that you should have to, but it's like, no, these men need to be, they could be doing whatever. And I guess women too, but like, let's be real. It's interesting that you say that because like the culture is such that people are sending pictures of themselves around all the time. And I had to very quickly be like, listen, I'm not into sending you naked pictures of myself because Speaker 1 (11:52) Ew. Yuck. Yeah. Like Speaker 2 (11:53) what? Speaker 1 (11:53) Like all these men are just supposed to have naked pictures of me? First of all, here's my Venmo. Like fuck off, actually. Right? But that's crazy. It's just the culture of it. Right? And so like, I absolutely said that to men. Like I'm not into doing that. Like if I'm in a relationship with someone, that's something else. And you've Speaker 2 (12:11) gotten Speaker 1 (12:11) turned away. Or not even turned away, but being like, what? Like actually the opposite. A lot of guys are like, that's an interesting boundary. Like I haven't heard that. Right, so I've and I've heard from other men from men have said to me like it's insane what women feel comfortable sending you they're sitting like really like Provocative look like out there feeling revealing. I mean I would call some sending your butthole to someone quite revealing wouldn't you? Not that I'm doing that. This is this butthole is not going anywhere Speaker 2 (12:40) People are Speaker 1 (12:43) doing that and men love to send you pictures of their dick look for a minute there I was collecting dick pics like Pokemon cards on this phone. They just were coming in. Coming in. It's fucking crazy. Why do they think we like that? They do. Women, do you like that? I mean, many of them would send it unrequested. I'm not saying send me a Speaker 2 (13:10) pic. Speaker 1 (13:10) Right. They're just ripping those things off. Just firing them off. It's insane. It's insane. Okay, we've covered a lot. No, so that's that is a change of an element of its Speaker 2 (13:24) own. Yeah of like you get out here like what the hell is going on? Speaker 1 (13:27) Seriously, like what you guys have been doing it's wrong. Speaker 2 (13:30) It's legit Speaker 1 (13:30) like that. Exactly Speaker 2 (13:31) the Speaker 1 (13:32) other thing This is so wild, but I don't even know how else to say this like I was married for 20 years in that 20 years Free milf porn really fucked up a whole generation of men. I'm sorry run it back. What? free milf porn fucked up a whole generation of men because the number of men in their 20s that Ask me out, have asked me out, are on date. What? What? Speaker 2 (14:01) You're like, I'm 50? Speaker 1 (14:04) Double their age, easily. And when I tell that to my married girlfriends, they're like, what? That is very interesting. I think society really has done a number on women and has convinced women as they age that they become less desirable, less attractive, that you've let yourself go, all these things. When in reality... Men will put their dick in anything. A. B. You will never have more options ever than you will in these 40s, 50s age groups. Speaker 2 (14:27) Also, I feel Speaker 1 (14:28) like... You can date up, you can date down. 40s and 50s, Speaker 2 (14:32) like, 30s is the new 20. Yeah. You know, I feel like people think, oh, 50 girls, like, what a hag. You know who's the hag? You're the best looking now than you've been in eight years. Facts! You are. Speaker 1 (14:46) You know what I mean? Not that I'm saying you Speaker 2 (14:49) were Speaker 1 (14:49) a hag before, but... These 50-year-old men... look like Michael Kors handbags that got left in the sun. Yeah. They just are not doing it. They're not, they're not doing anything. They've never seen a moisturizer. They really haven't. No. So that's my message. I mean, honestly, if, if you're a woman about my age, do not ever, ever, ever second guess your, what you were, your worth, your beauty, your anything at all. Desirability. Not there's a, someone's 29 year old son is out there right now waiting on you. Speaker 2 (15:19) fast. What does Speaker 1 (15:20) that say about our society? Oh, I know. Speaker 2 (15:22) I Speaker 1 (15:22) know. Some Freudian shit going on. And I actually have heard, I've talked to, it's actually very interesting. Young men in that age group, there's categories. I'm going to put my psychology hat on. There's categories. Men under 30 are not looking to settle down. No. They're not looking to settle down, right? No. But women in that age group are looking to settle down. They're like, because they're looking at that biological clock. Yes. And so what's happened, is that the match between the man at 29 and the woman at 29, she's like, let's go. Let's go. Speaker 2 (15:54) And Speaker 1 (15:54) he's like, yo, I'm just trying to relax. I'm just trying to play some video games. Can we just have a good time? I got my draft coming up. You know what I mean? And it really has taken a lot of the fun out of dating at that age because these men aren't ready to get married. A lot of them aren't ready to get married because they don't feel like they're where they want to be financially. Because 29, 20 years ago, you were ready to buy a house. 29 now? Yeah. You're not. And these guys are like, I would like to be at a place financially or in my career where I can support a family or whatever. They need more time. Unfortunately, women at that age do not have more time. No. They're trying to, right? Speaker 2 (16:27) And also, women have their shit together a lot sooner than men have their shit together. So these Speaker 1 (16:31) women, these 30-year-old women are dating up. Like 35. Right. These men. I come along, I'm like, I don't need literally shit from you. Let's just have a fun time. Speaker 2 (16:40) Yeah. Like, let's go to dinner. Let's go to a... The vibe is Speaker 1 (16:43) instantly lighter. It's instantly just about enjoying each other. It's very, very interesting. So there's a socioeconomic aspect of it. Is there a freeness to Speaker 2 (16:55) dating at your age? at your age, after being married, like, what are you looking for? Oh my god, Speaker 1 (17:01) there's Speaker 2 (17:01) such a freeness. Yeah. There's Speaker 1 (17:03) such a freeness because I think, and I have said this to men and I don't think that they like it, but it's true. They don't like anything. Once you take marriage and kids off the table, men are just men. Speaker 1 (17:17) I don't, doesn't matter how old you are. I've had great dates with 60 year old guys. I've had terrible dates with 60 year old. I've had great dates with 25. It's like, it doesn't matter. Yeah. It's just more about the person and like, do you vibe? Because you're not looking for that, Speaker 2 (17:30) to be clear. Like you're not, you're not dating for a, a new long-term relationship. You're not dating for, to remarry. Speaker 1 (17:39) You're not trying to. No, I mean, if one came along, perhaps. I feel like you're not at that place. No, I mean... Like, maybe in the future, but, like, right now in this moment. I'm Speaker 2 (17:49) not Speaker 1 (17:49) dating... Yeah, exactly. When I started dating, it wasn't like a... You're not set out to find your new husband. I'm Speaker 2 (17:56) looking Speaker 1 (17:56) for a partner. No, not at all. And there is so much freedom in that. There really is. It's just like, do we have a good time? I don't know. Do you make me laugh? Do you not? Okay, bye. Yeah, like, and I've had to get really clear on, like, how do I judge whether or not this is a good person for me to spend time with or not, because... I think I've talked to you. Yeah. I can have fun. Like you are just simply a good time. You know what I mean? I can have a two hour conversation. With yourself. With myself. Copy cameras. Let's go. Right. So I would come back from first dates and be like, that was great. Was Speaker 2 (18:31) it great Speaker 1 (18:31) or was it? Was I Speaker 2 (18:32) great? Yeah. Did I really kill it? Yeah, exactly. I killed that. Speaker 1 (18:39) Yeah, so I had a wet mop just in the corner. I had to develop sort of a more analytical type of scale to kind of judge people by. Tell me. I'm Speaker 2 (18:49) interested. But guys, also, I haven't dated in ever. I've literally... What do you mean ever? Never. What? Never once. Like, I always had boyfriends. Okay. I never dated. I had a boyfriend in high school into the beginning of college, then was single for... six months maybe wow before i met steve we've been together for almost 11 years never once i've never once dated so Speaker 1 (19:16) i so i really have no idea what it's like Speaker 2 (19:19) at all yeah in any phase of my life really you've Speaker 1 (19:24) never been on dating apps Speaker 2 (19:24) so i've never been on dating apps i've never like casually date like this is all very interesting to me okay Speaker 1 (19:31) so i have a i have a five point scale Speaker 1 (19:38) Excuse me, let me get out my spreadsheet. I have a five point scale and the way it works is because I'm at a point in my life where I don't want to get married to you. I don't want to have your kids. I don't need you to pay my bills. I don't need you to meet my kids. That's a huge one. I have absolutely no desire to integrate. a person into my kid's life. I'm not looking for a stepdad. This person is just for me. Right. Like, you and I are spending time together. I'm not lying to my kids. Yeah, they know you're... If I had, you know what I mean? I would be very forthcoming with them. But it's not about that. It's about, like, you're not going to be at Christmas. You're not going to be at the cookout. Yeah. You and I are going to spend time together. We're going to go on trips or whatever. But, like, that's it. That's all I need you to be. So when you take away all those things, it's like, I feel like men... Speaker 1 (20:29) are comfortable with what they know. They're like, I'm supposed to have a good job. I'm supposed to be Speaker 2 (20:33) able Speaker 1 (20:33) to pay for things. Speaker 2 (20:34) Like the checklist Speaker 1 (20:34) that they have been told from society that they need to be. And so in the absence of judging against that, I had to come up with other things. And so it's really not financial. Do you have any notes? Of course I have Speaker 2 (20:47) any notes. I love that. I'm obsessed. Speaker 1 (20:49) So the way this works, it's a five point scale. If I deem that you and I are equal on that scale, you get a half a point. So the best you can get, two and a half, is we are exactly equal. Wow. Speaker 3 (21:01) you Speaker 1 (21:01) need to be at a two and a half or higher for me to be spending time with you. Like as a serious, you