Be There in Fluently Forward (with Shannon McNamara)

Be There in Five

Host Kate Kennedy sits down with Shannon McNamara of the Fluently Forward podcast to discuss the evolving landscape of celebrity gossip and

Key takeaways

Shannon McNamara's podcasting journey began on TikTok after she posted about a blind item involving Joe Rogan and Addison Rae.
The hosts observe that modern gossip platforms like DeuxMoi often feel like paid PR, whereas older sites like Crazy Days and Nights felt more like riddable mysteries.

Main topics

Evolution of Blind Items
Hollywood Power Dynamics

Notable quotes

I really do miss blind items because now you go on crazy days and nights and it's like Jojo Siwa is a yacht girl for Oprah.

Conclusion

The episode provides a deep, analytical look at how fame, social media

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:11) Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Be There in 5 podcast. I'm Kate Kennedy, your host. I'm so excited because today I'm getting to chat with a fellow pop culture aficionado about all the things that I... just need someone to talk about with. Shannon is from the podcast Fluently Forward. I've been on her show before, but this is her first time on mine. And I'm so happy to have her here. I'm sure a lot of you listen to her because I feel like I've heard a lot of you like suggest her or even imply that like we're both blonde people that like talking about celebrity stuff in a semi-intellectual manner. And anyway, I'm so excited she's here. Welcome, Shannon. I'm so excited Speaker 2 (0:45) to be here. You know what comments I get a lot that You, me and Chelsea from the financial diet. Yeah, the financial diet. They're like, all three of you are in my rotation. It's like as a triangle. I'm Speaker 1 (0:58) like, Speaker 2 (0:58) interesting. We should put our birth charts together. Speaker 1 (1:01) Love that. And I actually was thinking today, too. I was like, I don't know how you got started and when. Can you tell the people your podcasting journey? Speaker 2 (1:09) Yeah, well, it all started from TikTok because I got on TikTok during COVID like everyone and I was making videos about really, I mean, just anything. And I was kind of under the impression that everybody read blind items because I had been obsessed with blind items for a long time. And I remember I read a blind item one day that was about, well, I mean. A famous TikToker and this podcast host and you fill in the blanks. And it was a blind item allegedly saying that like Joe Rogan was hitting on Addison Rae at an event. Speaker 1 (1:39) And I made a TikToker about it. And I was like, isn't that crazy that like TikTokers are now in blind Speaker 2 (1:44) items? And I expected five people to see it and be like, oh, my God, it's crazy. And instead. the younger generation, everybody was like, what is a blind item? Like, what is this riddle? So then I started kind of explaining blind item lore on TikTok and people got really into that. And I've always been into pop culture. And then people asked for a podcast. So I just did three episodes because I was like, yeah, I'll throw it at the wall and see if it sticks. And it stuck. And now it's my career. And I've just been so lucky. I love that. What was your career at the time? I was working in marketing for a health tech startup and I think it was my third company doing that. So totally different. I wasn't in love with marketing for a health tech startup, especially because it was B2B marketing. So I didn't even get to do cool things like here's the away luggage or the quip toothbrush and why you should get it. It was like our service is the best for doctors and here's why they should purchase it. Speaker 2 (2:42) Yeah, but sometimes I think that's best for creative people is to be in something that's so distinctly uncreative because it kind of forces you to do something on the side. Speaker 1 (2:51) Yes, there's no like no motivation and energy put into a side hustle, like being creatively unfulfilled in an allegedly creative job. I had the exact same experience. The blind items start so interesting because I when I started podcasting, I talked about blind items a lot more because I I was really into them, too, in like the 2010s. And my dad and I would read like Sedan together and stuff and try to guess because I also think I like riddles. And then I feel like in the 2020s, I got out of the habit because conspiracy theories started to feel like dangerous. And I felt like every like especially NT, C-Dance, Crazy Days and Nights is one of like the one of the bigger sites of yesteryear. And I felt like everything was about accusing. like young starlets or influencers of yachting and I got kind of tired of it where do you stand today with like blind items crazy days and nights and even like we there's a whole thing to be said about like the pipeline to do more culture where it's now crowdsourced today where it's not like insiders anymore right Speaker 2 (3:52) yeah dude Speaker 1 (3:53) I mean I've stopped doing blind item content for the past Speaker 2 (3:57) couple of years and people keep asking for it and it just doesn't feel aligned. And I made a video about this a year ago, basically saying I really do miss blind items because now you go on crazy days and nights and it's like Jojo Siwa is a yacht girl for Oprah and showed her holes to Oprah for money. And then you go on Dumas and it's like. everybody's eating at this fancy restaurant. And Jacob Elordi had like three meatballs on his plate. So I feel like Dumont is all publicists and paid PR trying to make it sound like gossip and crazy days and nights is conspiracy theories trying to make it sound like gossip. And I really do miss how it used to be because the big thing on my mind at the time when I made that video is that. I want to know what happened with Ariana Grande and Ethan Slater because Bowen Yang and her are always saying like, you don't know the full story. You Speaker 1 (4:44) don't know Speaker 2 (4:44) the real story. Yeah, it happened differently. And I'm like, if blind items were how they were in the 2010s, we would have found out through the blind items. And I'm pretty sure we know what happened, which is, you know, something not above board. But I miss hearing the story because the blind items back in the day, I mean, they were talking about Jared Leto, Harvey Weinstein, you know, Britney and her conservatorship, everything. And that's the hard thing with conspiracy theories is that a lot of them are dangerous and wrong. And then every once in a while, I mean, now we have the Epstein files out and nobody's done anything about it. So it's like you're so caught in between because you don't want to sound like a crazy person. But then. Sometimes Hollywood is crazy. I mean, look at everything that happened with Diddy. That is a conspiracy, right? Like people were covering him up. Same with Harvey Weinstein. He had lawyers and publicists and espionage people on his team. So it's really weird to walk both of those lines. And it also makes pop culture less fun because it just used to be like, who's banging who? And now it's like so dark sometimes. Speaker 1 (5:48) It's almost, you're right. I didn't think about like that, how there's. kind of a missing middle ground still. Even though it feels like everyone's filled in the gap with every type of commentary imaginable, Dumas has been a bit overtaken by publicists. And it started out in a more like gawker stalker way, I feel like. And... Yeah. Crazy days and nights. I haven't looked at it in years, but it did have a lot of stuff that came true, which was why I was interested in it. And I think that's like the problem is you're always looking for something to be like fully reliable or fully not. And the reality is most conspiracy theories have like a seed of truth, kind of like everyone's a pedophile who's a Democrat. And it's like, oh, no, Republicans spread that because it was them. You know, it's just I think revisiting the Epstein files and Britney's conservatorship are two examples of things that I'm like. Wow. Where do you stand on yachting? I don't really understand. Speaker 2 (6:40) Well, I think it's definitely, I think there's so many things that. aren't like black and white. Like we were talking when you came on my podcast about how I think everyone in Hollywood is kind of in an open relationship. And I also think that there's a lot of kind of sex work that happens in Hollywood, but there's so many different angles to it. Like you have the Harvey Weinstein coercion where it's not trading sex for roles. It's like you either have sex with me or I blackball you from this entire industry and your career is over. And then I think you sometimes have. Speaker 2 (7:13) variations where you're a pretty girl. So you get invited to a party because they want to have pretty girls there in the hopes that you sleep with someone, but it's just a hope. So I think the spectrum goes like really far and really wide. And I definitely do think, I mean, there's some tea that I've heard that I could tell you off air because I don't feel entirely good about it, but I'll, I'll, I'll make it a blind item. There's been a rumor that there's one. Speaker 2 (7:40) female in Hollywood who isn't quite a celebrity, but she's known in Hollywood and that she is a third for Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez. And I have it on confirmation that that is true. And that's why she attended their wedding. So I think it's little things like that where maybe you're hooking up with someone and they pay for part of your lifestyle, but it's not a signed sugar daddy contract or come on this yacht and I'll pay you this much money. Like I think variations of that happen, but. Online, everybody likes to think that every relationship is like a PR contract and both people signed it and it's a complete lie. And I think whether it's a PR relationship or yachting, I think there's so many different spectrum variations of it. And I don't think people are signing on the dotted line and handing over cash and envelopes. Speaker 1 (8:29) Yes, I feel like I used to talk about that a lot, like how relationships can be used for PR purposes, but it doesn't mean the entire premise is false. And people can also meet because of like being set up and like, you know, and actually form like a real relationship. And I know I think that people love to run with. things being fully contractual in ways that like gets really old and I felt like I kind of had to leave a certain realm of content because I didn't want to contribute to like everyone always speculating about people's fake relationships, sexuality, being a sex worker, like, I don't know, it's just hard to dabble in, I guess is my point. But that's like an interesting riddle to think through, especially because, I mean, this is why influencers out here like Aspen, you know, secret lives of Mormon wives OC being in an open throuple might be important for the world. Speaker 2 (9:23) Representation matters. I eat it up. And what you said kind of jogged my mind too, because I think something that's interesting, and I think this is where like the TikTok conversation doesn't go is. With PR relationships, people talk about like, who's a beard, who's gay in Hollywood. And people will talk about that, but nobody wants to talk about the fact that if you come out as gay in Hollywood, you're not going to get superhero Speaker 1 (9:44) roles. Speaker 2 (9:45) And there's certain names of people. And like, what does it say about the industry that people still feel like they have to do that? And who really is making the decisions up in Hollywood? Because there's so many things where we hold celebrities' feet to the fire, but... there's people a level up from them, like three levels up from them. And I feel like they are the shadowy figures who make a lot of decisions and they don't really get any of the blame, which I think is a shame, but I'm, I'm with you on the Aspen thing. Like I eat her content up. Like that is what I want to see on my fascinating. Like I'm obsessed. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (10:17) Also Mormons in general, like Speaker 2 (10:19) are overtaking even, um, dancing with the stars is on this season. And so many of the pros. grew up Mormon. And I'm like, I never would have thought that Utah would be a content creator factory and they would churn out like dancers and influencers, but that seems to be a thing. Speaker 1 (10:37) It absolutely is. And yeah, there are two like major ballroom hubs in the United States, Miami and Utah. And yeah. And also like there's there's so many like influential things with the Mormon culture, more so than the doctrine that like even just having so many kids, people are. like really put into activities at a young age that are really like high time commitment. And also like kind of the, I think people are obsessed with, this is why I think Reese is like the most popular person coming out of Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders show. It's like people are obsessed with people that can present as super sexy, but have the personality of someone super innocent. And I think that a lot of like the Utah sexy dancer doing a samba, but like the kind of girlish sweetness and innocence of like a Riley Arnold is just something that endears people. And because it is kind of fascinating to, yeah, not drink alcohol and to otherwise wear garments or, you know, not have sexual marriage or whatever, and kind of also be like such a sexy dancer. Speaker 2 (11:50) It's the Britney Spears effect, you know, like so sexy. But in an interview, she was, you know, this sweet girl from Louisiana, I think. And I feel like the inverse of that is Angelina Jolie, who like drip sex with everything that she does. And then you look at her behind the scenes and she's like UNICEF, like all over the world doing all this charity stuff. But it's interesting because people perceive them both in different ways, kind of. Yeah, I'm with you. There really is something. Every time I watch like whatever a Mormon influencer is doing, it compels me. Like I'm like, maybe if I joined the Mormon church, my house would suddenly be clean all the time, too. Like their houses are always so clean. Speaker 1 (12:32) Well, I think, too, that when you see this on Secret Lives with how awful all the husbands have revealed themselves to be, it's like it's very much a culture of motherhood. being equivalent to like divinity and righteousness and growing up thinking that's like the greatest thing you can do. And then also kind of a directive for mothers to not work outside the home. So, so many became influencers and do and also historically did MLMs because it was work that could be done in the home. Because when you have all these, like you have skills, you have education, you have creativity, and the only outlet to actually work and make money was blogging or MLMs. And then when they become successful and more successful than their husbands, like the Secret Lives women, out-earn them and yet still are being held to the standards of a more kept woman. It's like maddening to watch. Like, did you watch the most recent season of Secret Lives? You mean the one that came out just like a few days ago? Speaker 2 (13:30) Yeah. I just can't. I think it's too depressing. I watched the one before though. Speaker 1 (13:34) And I hated Speaker 2 (13:35) how they focused on the, what was it called? Dad talk or whatever. Every single one of those men like straight to jail. Like what's the use? There were so many things that made my jaw drop. And then my jaw would drop even further by how the women would act like what they said was kind of normal or not a big deal. I'm like, wow, that's just, I don't know. I wonder what it must be like for them hearing the audience reactions and saying like this. This is 100 % not right what he did. It must feel validating, but also confusing because I don't know what it's like to grow up with that kind of ideology. Speaker 1 (14:09) Well, and like Jen Affleck was pregnant again. Her husband, Zach, the blonde guy, he I was just like watching last night and he was like. Jen wants to pursue like acting or producing music or something. And, you know, I was attempting to write this God awful song called I Got My Pink Back as if it was like, that's the first time anyone's ever heard that about flamingos and post-mortem. I can't even get started on that. But anyway, Zach was like, I prayed about it. And if you pursue like acting or singing, like we're going to have to get divorced. And I'm like, that? makes me great like i like the the people think like having the audacity to say like i prayed about it and i'm going to weaponize this spiritual thing that matters to your soul to coerce you to not work follow your dreams and to stay married to me it's like it like i actually it It breaks me out in the hives. It makes me so mad. And that's the sort of like darkness that I'm like four seasons in. If we're not like learning from this, if we're not exploring these storylines deeper and we're just showing these god awful people and rewarding them with season by season renewals like Dakota, like what are we doing? And this is what I don't need. Reality starts to be perfect. I want them to be flawed. But like I do struggle towing that line of darkness that isn't isn't fun anymore. Speaker 2 (15:20) Dude, I'm with you. Speaker 1 (15:21) And the Speaker 2 (15:21) joke of it is if Zach starts watching porn or cheats on Jen, well, he also needs to pray to God about that because like, you know, like I've heard so many different religious influencers be like, well, he's struggling with this because like the demon of cheating is on his back and like I need to help him through it. And like that's one of the reasons for demon. Yeah, it's a demon. I'm like, that sounds so nice if I just had demons on my back to get off and it wasn't me. But it. it's just way too dark this season. And also like reality is supposed to be fun. Like it's just supposed to be fun and something that helps you turn your brain off. And I feel like with everything going on in the world right now, it's just like, it's not fun to watch something that's basically the equivalent of doom scrolling. Like I want a little pep in my step when I'm watching something. Speaker 1 (16:06) Yeah, you're so right. I feel like that's kind of, um, even why I'm constantly searching for like celebrity stories that like intrigue me nowadays. And there are like very few. I mean, even like the I was like, is there anything worth talking about from the Emmys besides Shailene Woodley's outfit? Did you watch the Emmys? Did anything interesting happen? I just Speaker 2 (16:30) watched clips. I saw Emilia Clarke speak Valerian on stage. And that was pretty cool. And apparently Rachel Sennett did some sort of bit that didn't land. And yeah. Like that's kind of it. I mean, I don't really understand the point of watching these award shows anymore. And I also don't understand why they haven't just switched to streaming on TikTok or YouTube or anything like that. Because over on Patreon, we've tried to do live chats for the VMAs or the Oscars. And the day of, everybody's like, okay, how can I illegally watch this? I don't want to get cable for the day. So I just feel like with the late night talk shows and... award shows, they're also out of touch. And like, you either need to change with the times or I don't know, I guess they have enough money to sink and fail for the next five years, but like, come on, get with it. SNL has started doing that. They're hiring people who are doing skits online now. And I think that's exciting. Speaker 1 (17:25) Yeah. Speaking of SNL, Rachel Sennett and who was it? The other person on her show, I Love L.A. Oh, I didn't know. Speaker 2 (17:34) Odessa? Odessa? Yes. They kind of tried Speaker 1 (17:36) to do a bit of a Maya, Rudolph and Kristen Wiig, like, hi, like kind of. You'd see bit that just, yeah, it didn't quite land, which, you know, must have been tough or I don't know what they were trying to go for. Bits are tricky like that. And I feel like the Tina, Amy, Julia, Louis Dreyfus, like they always kind of have done that over the years. And do you want to know what I think established Speaker 2 (18:00) funny Speaker 1 (18:01) people? Like Speaker 2 (18:02) I've had this theory for a while because I actually did comedy for a bit. I did improv. I used to teach it. I did a semester at the Second City. So I thought I was going to be like a comedian back in the day. And we would read all of these books about comedic lore, et cetera. And one of the most interesting things that I found was the difference between high status and low status and how that pertains to bits. So like Stephen Colbert, when he was on The Colbert Report, he played this high status idiot and it made for such great comedy. Conan O'Brien, whenever he's doing anything. he's low status. And those are things that riff off of each other. So I feel like if the women from SNL come out and they do a bit where they're all hoity-toity, it works because they're naturally low status. Like we've seen them with mashed potatoes on their face, but I feel like Rachel Sennett and I'm forgetting her name, Odessa, whatever. They're kind of these like cool, I love LA, like Gen Z stars. So when they do it, it kind of comes across like. Sydney Sweeney in season one of White Lotus, where it's like, oh, you just are looking down on me. So I think playing with those statuses work so well. Like one of the things I've always found interesting about Alex Cooper is that I think she needs to play low status because in the OG call her daddy, when she's making fun of herself and talking about all these adventures she gets into, that's what made the podcast such a success. But now she's having on a psychologist to talk about CBT therapy and how you can like heal your inner child. And high status sometimes just doesn't work for someone. Like we wouldn't like it on Conan O'Brien and I don't think it works for Alex Cooper. So I think that plays a lot into bits and like how they're received by people. Speaker 1 (19:35) I think the same thing kind of applies to people that have jobs like ours that get. too big and they become stars themselves and then like their content's like a lot less fun yeah Speaker 2 (19:46) it's Speaker 1 (19:47) just interviewing like their celebrity friends and i'm bored yes yeah Speaker 2 (19:51) i i think it's very high versus low status and all it is is just how people perceive you because conan o'brien is always low status but i mean he's such a star he's he hosts things people know who he is but we wouldn't want to see him play somebody who's uppity Speaker 1 (20:07) So it's not even the reality of low, higher, low status. It's like kind of the more self deprecating model versus like. Speaker 1 (20:17) uh, like punching down. Speaker 2 (20:19) I think there also might be like an element of being parasocial with it. Like you don't want to see your best friend be alienating to you, but somebody like, I don't know, like I'm trying to think of somebody who's so not parasocial. Like I don't want Melania Trump telling me like a relatable story about something that she went through, but I also don't want my favorite YouTuber showing off her Birkins and stuff like that. So it's, it's interesting to kind of figure out. Speaker 1 (20:46) I think Birkin unboxings, like once people stopped caring about gender reveals, really all we have for suspense is Birkin unboxings. Well, now I'm on the Speaker 2 (20:57) side where people unbox their squishies and I'll wait until they've squished every squishy and I'm like, that's a good one. Yeah. Oh, Speaker 1 (21:05) like I'm at a point now where I'm watching three minute long videos of. um butter squishies dipped in pear like 18 layers of paraffin wax and i will stay for all 18 layers at night um to the point where i've looked into should i buy some paraffin wax but i think that we i don't want to like squish too close to the sun like i think that that is materially less fun in person than it is to watch it happen i Speaker 2 (21:30) tried it i got a bunch of wax and i did it Speaker 1 (21:33) like you're supposed to stick them in the freezer because i was like maybe this will be something that Speaker 2 (21:37) i do It gave me the same feeling as when I saw like back in 2020, Addison Rae did like the savage dance. So like in my mom's house in Florida, I like was trying to do it. Dude, humbling on a level that like I haven't received before. So I'm just going to leave the squishing to the squishers. Speaker 1 (21:55) That is so funny. You actually went. I think a lot of people have thought about it, but I love a hobbyist venture. And thank you for saving me the time and money and humiliation of my husband seeing me dipping squishies over the stove and wax. Speaker 2 (22:11) This episode is Speaker 1 (22:12) brought to you by The Real Real. And Speaker 2 (22:14) if I Speaker 1 (22:14) can be real, real with you, I guess. Sometimes when I'm scrolling past people and their designer goods and their cute stuff, I'm like, how? Why? In my head, people are like paying full price for all this stuff. And I just don't, it's not computing. But then I remember a lot of people aren't paying retail. Then I get back on the real, real and see good deals and realize it's a loophole where fancy and thrifty are the same activity. And you're shopping Gucci, Prada, Louis Vuitton, Tiffany, Cartier, up Speaker 2 (22:39) to 90 % off retail. 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Whether you're using investment view to compare the... your portfolio to the S &P 500 or you and your friend group dropped $500 on dinner and you're trying to split the check without a headache, they have something called bill split where you scan the receipt and everyone claims what they got and settles up without a separate app needed. There's so many helpful tools to help with your overall financial journey, both going back and mapping it going forward and write your own money story with Monarch. Use code BETHEREN5 at Monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch core half off at just $50. That's 50 % off your first year at Monarch.com with code BETHEREN5. Speaker 2 (25:56) Yeah. Same with, what about those? Have you Speaker 1 (25:57) seen those soap cutting videos where people take the exacto Speaker 2 (26:00) knife and they cut the soap? Maybe one day I'll try that. Maybe that one will hit. Speaker 1 (26:05) Oh, I like taking a nice like cheese slicer across the top. I'm like, soap was really just a grid of tiny squares. Is Speaker 2 (26:13) it though? I don't even know that that's true. I don't know how they do that, but I think all the, you know, there's so many things where I'm like, if I could go back in time and do this. I would have been able to blow up. I'm like, I should have back in college just started cutting up soap. And imagine your job is like you're Speaker 1 (26:29) raking in Speaker 2 (26:29) millions cutting soap. That's like the life. I know. Speaker 1 (26:33) I know. It's like for all the time I spent in Lush stores, I never thought of this. It's not right. Lush is making a big comeback, by the way. Speaker 2 (26:43) Yes, Speaker 1 (26:44) it really is. It's like it never went away. But like, it's just not a brand people talk about a ton. I don't love a lot of ASMR content. Like my pet peeve is when some magazine or online media makes people talk in a whisper voice for press. Kill me. Speaker 2 (27:02) Like, you know, everyone is good at it. Yeah. Like Cardi B, I'm into ASMR, but the right ASMR, I feel like it's become so baptized now. It's interesting to see the celebrities. I remember on certain ASMR videos, Sophie Turner would be liking it and so would I. And I'm like, oh, okay, so she's into ASMR. And Cardi B is also into ASMR. Speaker 1 (27:26) It's interesting. Where has Sophie Turner been? Speaker 2 (27:32) She's kind Speaker 1 (27:32) of MIA Speaker 2 (27:33) now. She Speaker 1 (27:33) was Speaker 2 (27:33) dating that heir to the textbook dynasty for a bit. And then they broke up. And I don't know what she's doing now. But talk about the epitome of a cool girl. She is just cool. And I think that Joe Jonas couldn't stand it because he's always wanted to be cool. And being next to her, he was aware of how he'll never be that cool naturally. And I think that's what caused their rift. But who knows? I'm just speculating. Speaker 1 (27:58) And she was really young when they got married. And to like... be to to have been a fan of his to meet him like right after you become an adult and then to get married and have kids i don't know the whole thing the thing it's a little bit funny to me um but you wait a textbook air like mcgraw hill i think is there is that that's so interesting i love a random air i feel like you probably do too like greek shipping airs Speaker 2 (28:22) Yes. Do you remember Rihanna dated this? I think he was like the heir of like an oil tycoon or something. But she dated this like hot billionaire who came from oil money. And there's only like three photos of them out there ever. But I think they dated for like a year. And I've always been curious what happened with them. And I feel like Emma Watson, too, is always off dating billionaires that you've never heard of before. And they kind of sneak under the radar. But I'm so curious about it. And meanwhile, Olivia Speaker 1 (28:51) Rodrigo can't even date a dude from a hedge fund. Speaker 2 (28:54) No, that was so crazy to me. I'm like, he gets like a W-4 and he's probably on company insurance. Like this is not the man engineering societal collapse that you think it is. Like we really need to start looking upwards instead of at Olivia Rodrigo's boyfriend. And I think I heard they broke up, which of course, like what relationship could withstand that pressure? Speaker 1 (29:16) Okay, speaking of Olivia Rodrigo, one thing that I saw you did a TikTok about recently, or maybe you did an episode about it like years ago, that because he's been spotted with Alex Earl. I feel like there's these like kind of side characters that lurk around in the background that, you know, until they Benny Blanco themselves, we don't really know a ton about them. And I feel like Zach Bia is one of these people. And yeah, didn't you do an episode like 2023 about him? Speaker 2 (29:45) Yeah, I've been obsessed because Zach Bia, I mean, I first heard of him because he was dating Madison Beer and everybody is like, what is like the princess and the frog? Like, what is she doing with him? And there was this video, paparazzi video of them outside of a club arguing. And it was like an argument. Like, I think she like shoved him at one point. She was crying. Like you could tell that he had done something wrong. And then when he was outspotted with, I think, Madeline Klein and then Olivia Rodrigo.