The Indie Sleaze Draft with Rob Mahoney and Sean Fennessey

Bandsplain

Host Yasi Salek is joined by Rob Mahoney and Sean Fennessey for a high-stakes 'Indie Sleaze' themed draft. The trio debates the definition o

Key takeaways

• The hosts define 'Indie Sleaze' more as a lifestyle and subculture involving fashion and partying than a strict musical genre.
• Rob Mahoney selects Lime Garden as a modern 'Strokes-Charli XCX' hybrid for the Best Strokes category.

Main topics

• Defining Indie Sleaze
• The 2000s NYC music scene

Notable quotes

My whole life is a hostage situation. And then I am the captor.

Conclusion

A nostalgic and expert-driven exploration of a specific musical era th

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) you Speaker 2 (0:05) What's with this band anyway? I don't get it, can you please explain? Wait, like, bandsplain? Speaker 1 (0:46) Hello and welcome to Bandsplain. I am your host, Yasi Salik. This is usually a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist. But today's episode is a little different. Today's episode is one of my legally mandated, Ringer-approved draft episodes. It is a draft under the theme of indie sleaze. We will get into what exactly that term means shortly. But first, I would love to introduce my guests. who are not really sleazy at all, actually, in the end. Jonathan Fennessy and Robert Mahoney, welcome to the program. Speaker 3 (1:22) Hi. Thanks for having us. I mean, I'm happy to be here. It's kind of like you're in a little bit of a hostage situation. Speaker 1 (1:28) My whole life is a hostage situation. And then I am the captor. That's the irony. Yes, Speaker 2 (1:35) yes. I Speaker 1 (1:35) have Stockholm Syndrome of being held by myself. Speaker 2 (1:39) And you live in Stockholm. Yeah. And I live, Speaker 1 (1:41) well, in a way, in a sense. Yeah. The other day I was like, my fucking boss won't give me a day off. And then I was like, and who is that? It's me. You guys, thank you so much for doing this with me. I know, Rob, for you, it might have a different tone and tenor. For Sean and myself, I think it's a bit hard. Speaker 2 (2:02) This is an interesting experiment because we are a little bit older than you. But I think that little bit. kind of shatters what our expectations are of this conversation. And we pre-gamed it a little bit the other day. And you and I have not spoken about what we think this is that we're about to do. What Indie Sleaze is or what this draft is. We Speaker 1 (2:23) should tackle the elephant in the room head on, which is what is Indie Sleaze? What does that term mean? I mean, obviously it's like a post-facto catch-all upon much, you Speaker 3 (2:37) know. Speaker 1 (2:38) reflection. It's really meant to describe a subculture and less of a musical genre and maybe has more to do with the subcultures like fashion and partying proclivities. But then I kind of was like, is that a lot of genres? Like you could kind of say that about grunge too. Like the bands that are all kind of categorized as grunge don't all sound the same. they kind of dressed the same and maybe like were in the same milieu, but they didn't sound the same. So I was wondering what you guys were thinking. Speaker 3 (3:12) Well, we're only 20,000 hours into Bandspoint history and we've just discovered that this is in fact what genres are. It Speaker 1 (3:17) only took five and a half years and nearly 200 episodes. Yeah. I mean, I think Speaker 3 (3:21) it's 100 % more lifestyle than it is music in that vein. What qualifies for the purposes of this draft? I really don't know. I would say especially on the dance end of the spectrum. Because for me, so much of Indie Sleaze is, do you like rock music? Do you like dance music? Do you like dance music in your rock music? But like, is Robin Speaker 2 (3:42) Indie Sleaze? I really couldn't tell you, even though contemporaneously and stylistically, kind of. Yeah, I think I've been getting the roots of Indie Sleaze confused for what I think the general public believes it to be. Yeah. Like, I dropped the term into Spotify, and the first thing that came up was a very long playlist that someone had compiled. And I would say only about 22 % of the songs that appeared there I thought qualified. I don't know, Speaker 1 (4:08) but some of that... But Speaker 2 (4:09) I'm not the arbiter of the term. So I'm open-minded here about what it is we're doing. We're all too old to be the arbiter of this term. Who came up with the term? I have Speaker 1 (4:17) no idea. I was reading, actually, this incredible article, you guys should read it, by the great Megan Garvey. She wrote a piece about it in GQ like two years ago. She kind of posits that like... It has taken the place of the word hipster, which I thought was actually genius because that is what we said back then. Right. In pejoratively, like nobody wanted to be called a hipster, but we all, I mean, I can't speak for you guys, but I absolutely was with my Janet from Three's Company haircut and my full American apparel and my like beat up sneakers and going to Cinespace Tuesdays. Like I was fully a card carrying hipster, but that word, I guess. just fell by the wayside or didn't apply anymore. And so they've retroactively, and I think it's young people. Because to your point about that Indie Sleaze playlist, what shocked me about it is there's many contemporary songs that came out this year. Speaker 3 (5:09) Were there? Speaker 1 (5:10) Yeah, like The Dare is on there, for example, who's obviously very much in the lineage of an LCD or whatever. Two Hollis is on there. There's a lot of music that might be considered hyper-pop. falls frost children fuckers like that lives on that playlist too right Speaker 2 (5:27) it was the intention behind this indy sleaze series because we're at the quarter century mark of this movement being born even though it wasn't called that at that time or did you just think you wanted to do it i Speaker 1 (5:38) didn't really think about that okay Speaker 2 (5:40) i love an anniversary i'm always thinking that way yeah Speaker 1 (5:42) that's why they pay you the big bucks yeah Speaker 2 (5:45) for sure that's me knowing numbers yeah i Speaker 1 (5:47) occupy the space of instincts, intuition. A freely Speaker 2 (5:52) evolving artist. Speaker 1 (5:53) Yeah. But it is crazy that it's 25 years. It is. I was trying to kind of do some back of the napkin math on the way here, but I'm not a woman in STEM and I'm bad at math. But I was thinking about like, because yesterday was, we're recording this on September 25th, yesterday was the anniversary of Nirvana Nevermind. And I was like, okay, in 1991, how long ago was the Beatles? Speaker 2 (6:15) You shouldn't talk about this in front of Rob. He famously does not enjoy Smells Like Teen Spirit. I have no comment on this Speaker 3 (6:21) matter. Speaker 2 (6:21) Or even Nirvana? We will Speaker 1 (6:22) deal with you later on that because it's your wrong and it's not your fault, really. Whose fault is it? You know, it's like... he's just misled. He needs education. It's like Speaker 2 (6:36) being born into a cult. Exactly. Speaker 1 (6:38) So Speaker 2 (6:38) me Speaker 3 (6:38) being Speaker 2 (6:38) waterboarded is Speaker 3 (6:39) bonus content? I don't know what's going Speaker 1 (6:41) on. Speaker 3 (6:41) Well, Speaker 1 (6:41) after dark. But I think that's about right. I mean, I've been lambasted in the comments for not knowing the exact tenure years of the Beatles because I'm not a fucking loser. But I think it's roughly 25 years before 1991. Does that sound right? Speaker 3 (6:57) Yeah. Yeah, Speaker 1 (6:58) 67-ish. Yeah, Speaker 3 (7:00) yeah. The tail end for sure. So Speaker 1 (7:01) basically, that is us in 1991 talking about the Beatles is us talking about the Strokes right now in 2026, which is so insane. I think Speaker 2 (7:12) this Speaker 3 (7:12) is part of the reason. Speaker 1 (7:13) It's really upsetting. It's very Speaker 3 (7:14) upsetting. But it's also part of the reason to me why Hipster didn't stick. It was like, that's too broad to last 25 years. In the same way that Blog Wave was never going to be the lasting definition of what this kind of music was. I feel like Hipster is kind Speaker 2 (7:30) of an offshoot of a previous identification of try-hard cool kids from the 50s and 60s. And the sort of post-beat, beatnik, you know. Trying to be more open-minded and liberal Speaker 3 (7:42) about Speaker 2 (7:42) the way Speaker 3 (7:42) you experience the world and think about Speaker 2 (7:44) art. And a pose is really, I think, a pretty significant part of it. And hipster and poser are kind of interwoven to each other. And this is like, I don't feel like this lifestyle is about pretending to be anything. I think what it's about is, it started out as about pretending to go back to something. Yeah. A kind of regression to form. That we had lost something in the culture of the music. But then it kind of interestingly evolves into, I don't know if it's a new kind of music per se, but it felt very new at the time. Like in 2005, it did feel like I was like, I'm not sure we've had music quite like this before. Speaker 1 (8:21) But you know what's interesting is that I was, we just did an episode on the Rapture's House of Jealous Lovers. It's the episode before this. And I was like, it is just like enough time passes and people forget everything. we had Gang of Four. Speaker 2 (8:34) We Speaker 1 (8:35) had ESG. We had like, there was a lot of precursor to that sound of music. The sound of music. But I think it's the packaging. You know, it's back to the subculture of it, right? The packaging was different. The subculture was different. Yeah. Vice Magazine was around. Yeah. Speaker 2 (8:52) I think there's something in the DJ culture and the party club culture that that's the thing that felt new to me. And you Speaker 1 (8:59) and I spoke about this because I think you and I are... pretty like similar in this is that there was a real crossover with hip hop. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:07) Yeah. Which Speaker 1 (9:08) didn't so much exist in previous rock subcultures. Yeah. You know, you'd have Speaker 2 (9:14) walk this way. You'd have Blondie with Fat Fight Freddy. You have a couple things over the years. It Speaker 1 (9:18) was almost more like we here's like peanut butter and jelly. Like that was that where this was just like we it was all we were in a soup, you know, like. you would have people like us who like listen to backpack rap and also and that was actually a sect of indie sleighs as my friend Crystal Moselle reminded me of that and she was like we were streetwear indie sleighs which was a total thing and that's like I feel like that was my life you know well Speaker 2 (9:42) Yossi and I lived in New York at the time when this is happening like from from where you were you're in Texas at the time I was yeah so like how did you perceive it what did you what did you think it was did you even think about it as a genre I mean the early part no just because it was still so emergent and it felt like, oh, this is Speaker 3 (9:57) indie rock or alt rock adjacent. And then I would say it really kind of started crystallizing, forming into what we now know as Indie Sleaze when I was in college. And so like for me, genre wise, a lot of this music is like stuff that I may or may not have downloaded on Oink while like trying to maintain my ratio in a college dorm room is kind of like the vibe. But also so much of this scene and this identity to me is like at a distance. I'm in Austin, Texas at UT. I'm seeing I'm reading these blogs, I'm seeing photos, I'm seeing like glimpses of especially what things are like in New York and like that, what that lifestyle is like in the club at these parties day to day. Yeah. I'm like, how do I connect with that idea from here? And really, the only way I could do it was by listening to the music and reading these things. But it was very much at a distance and very online for me at that time. The funny thing is, Speaker 2 (10:44) though, like I felt like we lived it that way, too, where sometimes I would be at a party where. Cobra Snake would be taking photos, but then other times I would just be at home alone, not at the party, just looking at Cobra Snake. Speaker 1 (10:56) Well, real heads will remember Polaroid scene, which is what it was called in the beginning. That's right. Me and my Nike dunks were featured several times. Yeah, the internet is a huge part of it, right? And party photographers are a huge part of it. The documentation of the fashion and the general hedonism. It was kind of, you know, in a way, like, a really perfect place before everything became too much, where it's like, you didn't have cell phones, so everyone wasn't capturing the moment. But there is documentation, so you could be free and do bad kid stuff. Speaker 2 (11:36) But Speaker 1 (11:37) you also have, like, all these amazing, you know, historical artifacts from that time. Speaker 3 (11:46) I wonder too how much of that is like, I think that's for one, the motivating factor behind the revival today. Like so much of the music and attempt to like recapture the fashion of this time is grasping at an era that younger people didn't get to be a part of, where those concerns weren't Speaker 1 (12:02) a Speaker 3 (12:02) part of it. And also like, weirdly enough, the difference between the very like... digital camera, high flash photography at a party. It's like, yes, it was online and living in a particular space, but like it was so separate from everything else because it wasn't, it was such a different form of capturing and photography that no one would like. pull it into your job interview in the way that now, if you're posting things to your Instagram or posting things online anywhere, it's like, it's just following you like a shadow all the time. And I feel like this was, there was at least a half step removed for that stuff. But Speaker 1 (12:35) it did sort of birth influencing, like the narcissism of the individual that you could be a bit of a star, you know, without maybe actually doing anything. Yeah. That kind of, I feel like a lot of Speaker 2 (12:50) people emerged out of the, those photographs and became i don't have a well-known but known to the public Speaker 1 (12:55) cultural figures yeah i mean i do think a lot of people think about this and i sent you guys this because i think it's an important part of the revival and this term that indiesley's instagram account which goes all over the place but i think a lot a big part of it is kids want to party kids want to do cocaine yeah well the big part of it is that people want to do cocaine and drink sparks yeah Speaker 2 (13:17) They do. They do. Speaker 1 (13:18) And maybe they are. Speaker 2 (13:20) It's Speaker 1 (13:21) none of my business anymore. But for a while they weren't, you know. And it's post-COVID. You know, I really feel like I remember this term getting a swell kind of out of, don't you feel like it was like around that? I Speaker 2 (13:34) guess it's in the arc of nostalgia. Then you're looking at somewhere between 10 and 20 years since something has happened. And then it kind of picks up steam again. I personally came at this from a very different perspective because. I wasn't doing cocaine in 2002. In 2002. Or ever. But I wanted to try to be a music journalist. And I wanted to be in the scene, but not like partying with rock stars. I was like interested in going to shows and covering the music. And the first interview that I ever did in my entire career was with my friend Ryan Domble, who I went to high school with, who went on to be a longtime editor of Pitchfork before either of us wrote for Pitchfork. We were writing for a website called newmew.net. Oh, Speaker 1 (14:13) yeah. I've been referencing it a lot in my research. Speaker 2 (14:17) And we interviewed half of Interpol in the basement of the Bowery Ballroom in 2002, 2003. I can't remember what year it was. And we just hung out with Speaker 1 (14:27) them. Post Speaker 2 (14:27) -turn on the bright Speaker 1 (14:28) lights. Speaker 2 (14:29) Right after it came out or maybe right before it came out. Speaker 2 (14:34) At the time I was like, this is this is what you do. Yeah, you're almost famous had come out and I learned that this is what you do You sit you have drinks in the basement for two hours with Paul banks. You're asking what they like about music You're Speaker 1 (14:45) totally that kid that you're like Paul banks is the coolest man to ever exist and What Speaker 2 (14:48) I came to learn what I had talked to musicians before what I came to learn was that he was as nervous as I was And that he actually wasn't that cool and he was really nice. Yeah, and I thought a really good front man, but that Also, Paul Banks is like three Speaker 1 (15:02) years Speaker 2 (15:02) older than us. That's right. Which is really crazy, right? Speaker 1 (15:04) It's not like this was like some person that was like a decade older than us. Yeah, Speaker 2 (15:08) no, it's exactly right. And so I think that was a nice entryway for that. And I mean, I went to a ton of shows and saw a ton of bands in that part of Speaker 3 (15:15) the Speaker 2 (15:15) world. And Speaker 3 (15:15) I Speaker 2 (15:15) interned Speaker 3 (15:15) at Speaker 2 (15:15) Spin Magazine and I was writing about music in 2004. So like I was really entrenched in it, though I was never very cool in it. But I really loved it. I loved this music very much, even though I was kind of more naturally a hip hop kid. I thought this was like the coolest thing going. in music at the time and then it i felt like in real time i aged out like as like holotronics was rising and the like clubbier too many more hip-hop party scene component of it yeah started happening i was like this isn't really my thing right Speaker 1 (15:45) um Speaker 2 (15:46) i'm more interested in the music i Speaker 1 (15:48) think what's so interesting is that they were both happening at once and then they converged like The first Fisher Spooner single is 2000, right? So you can kind of trace back the electronic electroclash, if you want to term it that way, arm of Indie Sleaze to that, you know, to Larry T's parties, Berlin, Niemzburg, I think it was called. Larry T, I think, actually coined the term electroclash. And then at the same time, you had the Strokes, who also were playing in 2000, put out their first EP in 2001. And then slowly, it sort of started to overlap, right? Because the YAYAYAs and the Strokes are playing these, like, warehouse parties in Brooklyn that also have DJs. It all sort of converged into one scene. I think it's interesting. Speaker 2 (16:37) It is. Why did that happen? I think my theory is that because hip hop was the dominant form of music culturally at that time, that it was sort of like kind of drafting off of the energy that I think hip hop was giving more commercially. Speaker 1 (16:50) Yeah. Speaker 2 (16:51) Because when you ultimately look at the. record sales of the biggest artists from this time. They're not the biggest artists of all time. It Speaker 1 (16:58) was 50 Cent, Get Rich or Die Tryin'. Everywhere you went, every party, it doesn't matter what kind of party it was, you're going to hear 50 Cent in the club. Thank God. Speaker 3 (17:06) We used to be a proper company. And this is still such like, I mean... speaking to your hip hop and rock intersection, like still like a very Lincoln Park kind of era. Yeah. Very much like a Creed puddle of mud stained kind of like post grungy era. Yeah. It's like this stuff is ascendant. Here's the thing. If you're in a very particular bubble, a rat-a-tat song will seem like the biggest thing on the fucking planet. But if you're outside that bubble, it's like, oh, literally no one knows what this is. And Speaker 1 (17:32) I Speaker 3 (17:32) think the... Wanting to protect that and wanting to cultivate that is probably some of how these movements came together, too. It's like, oh, if we join forces, this is a little bit stronger, but also still so much our thing. And I Speaker 1 (17:43) think like this might be me like over intellectualizing it, but I do kind of feel like it was such a reaction to that by being like. Hold on. Like, rock has gotten way too, like, bro-y, hyper, you know, Fred Durst. And, like, we need to bring back gayness and women and people of other cultures. No Speaker 3 (18:07) doubt. Speaker 1 (18:07) And, you know, a lot of that is present in what we, I guess, kind of now term indie slays, you know? Speaker 2 (18:13) It didn't start that way. I mean, Carano was the exception and not... the rule at first and it evolved pretty quickly. Even Speaker 1 (18:20) the gothiness of it. You know, like even like the Interpol bringing kind of their like goth post-punk thing. That's an outsider approach to things. But yeah, Karen, but even TV on the radio, there was a lot going on. The Strokes are, I read some tweet the other day that was like, the Strokes were the most multicultural band because they're like French and I was like, y'all need to. Speaker 2 (18:46) No, but Speaker 1 (18:46) I think the movement Speaker 2 (18:47) needed a kind of white boy rock band so that the press could kind of rally around them in a traditional way. You could have 45-year-old rock journalists saying, like, something is back. Particularly, Speaker 1 (19:00) I think, and as I'm a huge Anglophile, I understand this propensity because I have it with Englishness. The English are, like, so susceptible to... five American guys with dirty hair being like, we're bringing rock back. They like cannot fucking contain themselves. And it doesn't matter like if it's actually authentic or whatever, like they are buying it. They are buying it and they are selling it back to us. And that's what happened with the strokes, you know? Speaker 3 (19:30) And the bros are still here for those with eyes to see, you know, it's like there is that theatricality and like a... let's say slight diversification of who is allowed to be in a popular band in a movement. But like, this is still a, this is still a bros bro kind of, kind of moment. And Speaker 1 (19:44) I don't know how you guys feel, but like, I don't have any beef with the term Indie Sleeves. Like I don't care, you know, like no one called Joy Division post-punk in the moment. Speaker 2 (19:54) And Speaker 1 (19:55) it's, no one likes being grouped into a thing, but. I'm not a linguist, but at this point, when you say Indiesleys, most people roughly know what you're talking about. There might be quibbles about exact, but it worked. The word is working. You kind of have to let it go. I Speaker 2 (20:14) feel like frequently throughout this draft, we'll have to say, does this qualify? And maybe everything qualifies. I think you'll have to make your case. Yeah. But like... Can I just throw one out that I'm curious about your feelings? Just Speaker 1 (20:26) for as a temp check. Speaker 2 (20:27) Because this is kind of early days, though, not the absolute origin point. MIA. Absolutely. Totally. Because she was... I think A Lion Came Out originally in 2003, but really hit in 2005. Yeah. And I remember being at a record release party for, was Aralar the first record? Yeah. Speaker 2 (20:48) And feeling like I was actually at something that mattered, which is stupid maybe to say now. But I was like, this is what I have been working towards. Like, this is why I went to journalism school, which is pathetic in retrospect. But like, every rock critic who I thought was cool was there. There were a lot of beautiful people there. That's a major album. I'm a huge fan. I was a huge fan then. I'm Speaker 1 (21:09) a Speaker 2 (21:09) huge fan of especially those first three records. But I actually felt like I was like, I'm in a... I mean, a historical popular music moment. I Speaker 3 (21:18) mean, you Speaker 2 (21:18) were. I'm trying to sort through whether or not that's true. I think if we did this podcast and never said the words paper planes, it would be a dereliction of duty. Speaker 3 (21:27) And it's like, to the history of that moment, that song is, I would say, still the leading cause of finger guns in this country for going on decades now. So if that's not history, Speaker 2 (21:36) what is? Wait till Digger comes out. That's all I'm going to say. Wow. Put money Speaker 1 (21:39) in the pocket of the Clash, too, which is important. Yeah, it counts. I mean, we talked about this, like Amanda Blank, Spank Rock, you know, all of that stuff counts to me. Speaker 2 (21:49) Yeah. Okay. There's like a whole other strain, but I'll hold it on whether or not I think it counts. I Speaker 3 (21:54) have one Speaker 2 (21:54) clarifying Speaker 3 (21:55) question on this ground as well. Things that are stylistically and like fashion wise, incredibly indie sleaze, but musically, I would say not even close. Like, is Amy Winehouse indie sleaze? No. Okay. I would say no as well. That's Speaker 1 (22:10) just Speaker 3 (22:10) my gut instinct. I know what you're saying. I agree with you. I'm just wondering where the lines are. No, but just like the vibe, the Speaker 2 (22:14) sense of Speaker 3 (22:15) style, the kind of... I would say her look is as influential on a very particular strain of indecency as Speaker 2 (22:22) much as anything else. Speaker 3 (22:23) And you can just add like Speaker 2 (22:23) decaying lifestyle. Totally. You know, being contemporaneous with like the Libertines and things like that, you know? Speaker 1 (22:27) I mean, doing drugs doesn't make it indecency. It Speaker 2 (22:30) helps. I think Speaker 1 (22:31) it's a component that Speaker 2 (22:32) helps, you know? Well, Speaker 1 (22:33) like a question, one that I was wondering about, this is gonna, it's so funny, what we put forward is so like telling of what, I was like, do pretty girls make graves count? And I kind of feel like no. Speaker 2 (22:45) I feel like that was just closer to straight up punk, Speaker 1 (22:48) post-punk. Speaker 2 (22:48) It's post Speaker 1 (22:48) -hardcore, but they put out a release on Dim Mac. So it's like, it really is funny how everything was sort of, but yeah, I agree, I don't think they totally count. But I was like, oh, I could maybe if I wanted to make the case. One thing that I feel like I'm interested to see, because I think, Rob, your references will be later. I just kind of don't know much past 2006 because I was like, checked out, don't care. Like, don't know what's happening. Do not recognize this. Speaker 1 (23:17) I'll let you have at it. I'm Speaker 3 (23:19) glad to speak for my sub-generation. It's very important. Speaker 1 (23:22) It is. You know what? I think the last thing I want to say about this, like you pointed out, Sean, that it's a return, right? A revival. And I don't think that that it's a coincidence that it came with the internet, right? Because the internet, I feel like kind of stops time. Like in terms of the progression of things. Once the internet comes around, it's so much easier to take from the past. And I do feel like we start to see that a lot. Not to Mark Fisher, but Mark Fisher said, the feeling of belatedness of living after the gold rush is as omnipresent as it is disavowed. And I feel like that really fit here, right? It's like the idea of like, oh, we're going to be the Rolling Stones. Like we missed it. Or like for I think how people were looking at New York was like the... the heyday of CBGBs, right? And the idea that if you lived in New York and I felt this way. When I got to New York in 2004, I was like, it's over. Everything's over. I should have been here in the 90s. Speaker 3 (24:22) Even Speaker 1 (24:22) by 2004. I didn't feel that Speaker 2 (24:24) way about music. I did feel that way about the music media. I did feel that way about magazines and all that stuff. The music itself, I was like, this is fucking amazing. I mean, I was also a huge White Stripes fan, which were not a New York band. No, Speaker 1 (24:35) but they were part of this. But they were part of this. Yeah. Speaker 2 (24:37) And they were... firing and seeing them live was incredible. Speaker 1 (24:42) And Speaker 2 (24:43) so like, I had moments of transcendence watching the music where I didn't get stuck in my own cynicism. And that's part of the reason why I'm very happy to be here and talk about this stuff because I really love this era of music. Speaker 1 (24:53) I love that I moved to New York in 2004 to become a music journalist just as all magazines collapsed. I think it was wonderful timing. You could have Speaker 2 (25:02) been a legend and now you are a legend. There you go. I became a podcaster. Now Speaker 3 (25:05) you're Speaker 2 (25:05) doing a podcasting magazine. Congratulations. Speaker 1 (25:08) Thank you so much. Speaker 1 (25:14) Okay, let's talk about the categories really quick. We're doing best band, best front person, best song, best album, best blank